Talk:Nudity

Reorganizing sections
After completing several splits and moving content to linked articles, the sections and subsections that remain here need some reorganizing, which I am now doing. This is in preparation for a GA review. WriterArtistDC (talk) 12:32, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

GA Review
The article in down to 9000 words, and may be ready for submission for GA review, but I would appreciate any comments.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Citation cleanup
FYI: I am removing the citations that are no longer used in the article due to content being split. WriterArtistDC (talk) 14:23, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Summary of History of nudity
The statement regarding Judeo-Christian sexual shame is part of a summary of the opening paragraph of the History of nudity section. The prior lead content was unclear, the source being limited to stating that sexual shame regarding nudity was unique to Judeo-Christian societies compared to other Western civilizations, not the entire world. From Mesopotamia to Imperial Rome, nudity could be socially embarrassing but not sinful. There is a citation for this statement in the article body, which was not duplicated in the lead per MOS:LEADCITE. If there is a consensus that this is controversial, and needs an inline citation in the lead, it can be added. WriterArtistDC (talk) 14:44, 8 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure this is an accurate statement. As I stated in my original objection there are many cultures where nudity was associated with shame even Roman culture using it for sexual shaming and as a status symbol for slavery. If we merely reword it for Western cultures then basically the whole Western world associates nudity with shame while just happening to be mainly Judeo-Christian. Except for some European cultures but those also have a significant Judeo-Christian following. It seems to me redundant to make this statement why I would rather support its removal especially as there's already a section on Abrahamic religions I don't think linking it to Western cultures is needed in the lead. Biofase flame | stalk 15:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The source "Clothing and Nudity in the Hebrew Bible" (Berner etal, 2019) states that Western civilizations before the Abrahamic religions thought of nudity as socially embarrassing but not sexually shameful. Granted, many do not make the distinction between embarrassment and shame, but it needs to be made to understand the topic. Embarrassment is a short-term emotion that comes from violating a social norm, while shame is a long-term assessment; the difference between doing a bad thing and being a bad person. This is a very important point to make in the lead since it continues today as the basis for globalization of Western culture.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not disagreeing with that. It's just that Western culture has a predominantly shameful attitude towards nudity (which is decreasing and might not be regarded as shameful any more) while Western culture is predominantly Christian so it's an obvious conclusion I don't think is needed in the lead. Biofase flame | stalk 17:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There are no obvious conclusions in a WP article, only what is stated explicitly. I am sure that because of the domination of Christianity, most readers of this article think nudity is and has always been shameful/sinful. Far from disappearing, this assumption is the foundation of the porn industry.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I hear you but to me it's like saying if rain is wet and it's raining then it's wet. Shame in ancient times was based on circumstance of the nudity and not the nudity itself. Forced nudity for adultery was shameful while public bathing wasn't. Indeed today nudity IS more an embarrassment than a shame. If the point is that nudity hasn't always been shameful then referring to the West doesn't really bring that across. It's requires too much of an explanation for the lead which is supposed to be a summary but has already grown rather large. Just my 2c Biofase flame | stalk 02:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Re-write of lead
I have made substantial changed which I hope address the concerns recently expressed. Most of all I emphasize the importance of the guideline MOS:CITELEAD, which prevents having to duplicate many of the citations contained in the body of an article. Many of the changed reflect recent changes in the body of the article. WriterArtistDC (talk) 05:07, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Avoid identifiable non-public individuals
I don't believe it's right to include images that clearly identify non-public individuals in an article like this. At least not if they're from cultures where full or partial nudity is not the norm. Regardless of privacy laws, there's really no benefit in effectively making a nobody "the face of nudity", at least not unless they personally insist on having their pics included in an article like this.

Peter Isotalo 13:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikimedia Commons has safeguards for this kind of thing. Certainly if there's a tag on the page there saying "The subject of this photo may not have given permission for this image to be used across Wikipedia," we wouldn't want to use it.
 * —VeryRarelyStable 02:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)