Talk:Nudity/Archive 6

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Anasyrma as African tradition?
Just noted that this happened to land under non-western attitudes/Africa/Curse of nakedness section.

Funny.. of course it belongs into the origins of western attitudes / blessing of nudity subsections. Just where is that? Richiez (talk) 22:48, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Grammar
I believe the grammar in the following sentence is somewhat unnecessarily far-reaching: "The wearing of clothing is exclusively a human characteristic".

The construction here seems to imply that 'wearing of clothing' is 'exclusively a characteristic', instead of saying that 'wearing of clothing' is 'exclusively human'.

So I propose to change the sentence to something along these lines: 'The wearing of clothing is an exclusively human characteristic' or 'The wearing of clothing is a characteristic exclusive to humans'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.89.79.42 (talk) 19:10, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Img swap
Could you please explain what this - so far undiscussed - swap of images is supposed to mean?--Avril1975 (talk) 22:06, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Hinduism
I missed a discussion of nudity in Hindu art since several religious images (Khajuraho comes to mind) are in different states of nakedness, but modern Indian society seems much more prudish. It could go under the Indian section or the Religion section. --Error (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

need to edit
Why can't this article be edited? "Gender segregation is more the exception than the rule in modern European sauna facilities." This is true in most countries, but is not true in the German- and Dutch-speaking parts of Europe, where segregated public saunas are rare and most are mixed with nudity required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.29.76.37 (talk) 17:27, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Additions
I think more pictures should be added to the article Jedijohn247 (talk) 23:01, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Photo Used
I would like to delete a photo on here as it has been used without my permission Sonderek (talk) 07:37, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I restored the photo which was recently deleted per OTRS issues (File:Man and woman naked.jpg: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Man_and_woman_naked.jpg) with the double image which resembles the old one and is more natural and realistic than the horse photo.--Avril1975 (talk) 13:20, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that photo is nice, and you removed it entirely. People thanked me for that edit, when I put this picture into the article. It doesn't have to be removed entirely. Why not use it somewhere in the article? Hafspajen (talk) 15:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2014
The Paragraph, "Personal Nudity" ends with this sentence: "Some individuals and couples adopt naturism as a lifestyle." It is not just them, but groups and even families adopt a naturist lifestyle.

Ajmrowland (talk) 03:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I just removed the sentence completely. It had no sources, and was too vague. I'm guessing it was there to point out the connection between private nudity and naturism, but the article already talks about naturism later, so it seemed a little redundant. Grayfell (talk) 22:35, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Lack of black nudity
Why isn't there an image of a nude black person? Omo Obatalá (talk) 23:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 March 2015
''A U.S. study by Alfred Kinsey found that 75% of the participants stated that there was never nudity in the home when they were growing up, 5% of the participants said that there was "seldom" nudity in the home, 3% said "often", and 17% said that it was "usual". The study found that there was no significant difference between what was reported by men and by women with respect to frequency of nudity in the home. ''

I think it should be noted on the page that the above study was conducted in the 50's. I think if a study was conducted right now, you would not get the same results.

Doc zia (talk) 11:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —  19:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Why are some of the photos of people with clothes on?
Sure, they are topless women, but that just seems sexist. Would we use them if they were topless men to illustrate nude people? And how do we know the woman in the bed is nude? Dougweller (talk) 06:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The people wearing hats in the pictures are not nude. John Link (talk) 00:12, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Lede images
So, the current images that greet you when you view the page on nudity (especially the female one), don't imho, really do a good job conveying the subject. The man is wearing a backpack, both the man and the woman have removed the hair in the genital region, and the woman has a prominent belly-button ring. A quick glance through the commons category shows very few images that show people truly nude with hair in all the right places. The naturist family at the beach is better in some respects, though it's too small and in black and white. I also agree with the person from January 12 that wants to see more racial diversity in the article. So, can anyone come up with more representative images? ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 03:44, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

those photos
they should be censored or something, its bad for kids to see those or should we just put some warning?
 * Thanks for expressing your concerns, but Wikipedia is not censored. Please click the link and read for details. Sundayclose (talk) 14:18, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2015
Miketheliker100 (talk) 19:39, 17 July 2015 (UTC)\plz More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 21:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Ermmm - what change are you requesting? --Roly (talk) 20:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2015
I request that this be added on top of this section as it represents the subject well.

Walimak (talk) 15:26, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The article has quite sufficient representation of various forms of nudity. Wikipedia is not a photo gallery. Sundayclose (talk) 17:13, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

lead image
whats the point of posting people wearing pants to illustrate an article about nudity?--Avril1975 (talk) 17:18, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20101205181907/http://homeland.house.gov/SiteDocuments/20100317140311-88574.pdf to http://homeland.house.gov/SiteDocuments/20100317140311-88574.pdf

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Public nudity, second paragraph
Can we get a citation that shows that a woman's breasts indicate arousal more evidently than a man's? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TharosTheDragon (talk • contribs) 23:59, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

The brief bit on Islam
It mentions here that women in Islam are required to completely cover themselves due to purdah. I may be wrong, but isn't purdah an Indian custom? I agree there are some similarities in custom, but would purdah be the correct appelation? Also, while there are varying degrees to which women (and men) cover, or don't cover themselves in Islamic societies as far as I know the main stipulation based on religion was the Koranic injunction to dress modestly. The specifics as to what this (dressing modestly) means are spread across the multiple interpretations of Islamic law - not to mention those who attempt to go beyond the four (five w/shia) schools. While the article is good enough to mention that the hadith is the inspiration for much of the debate that followed, it would be more appropriate to note that there are many schools of thought regarding awrah. The sentence "For women, Islam requires them to observe purdah, covering their entire bodies, including the face (see burqa). A common misconception, however, is to cover everything but the hands and face," is incorrect in that it is reductionist and makes a POV judgment in regard to schools of thought that may differ from that which the editor had subscribed to. This is not to say the sentence is wholly wrong in that it may fit with a certain view, but it is only one among many. Perhaps, however, it might be wise to separate perceived religious injunctions from how people actually behave. After all, religious and cultural mores are very different between Saudi Arabia and Egypt, yet they are both generally considered Muslim countries. —jankyalias (talk) 01:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Considering the lack of response I am making a slight edit. —jankyalias 01:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Nudity. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050317001427/http://www.unlv.edu:80/projects/ohpsp/p/133pleacher.html to http://www.unlv.edu/projects/ohpsp/p/133pleacher.html
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Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2017
I Woud like to add some pictures Jeromy05 (talk) 19:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Mixed gender sauna
What kind of source do you expect? I certainly won't be linking to all the public sauna facilities in germany that have mixed-gender saunas. That would be in the order of hundreds. In contrast, I haven't found any with strict gender separation (there are some, but that's mostly in spa areas of hotels, where they mostly expect foreign customers). The articles I've linked indicate that gender separation (as well as bathing suits, but that's a different story) are something unexpected in german areas. --PaterMcFly talk contribs 18:40, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * It's not a matter of what kind of source that I, as one editor, expect. It's a matter of what Wikipedia requires. Your dismissive conclusion that the statement is "obvious stuff" does not reflect an understanding of Wikipedia policy. You don't seem to understand how reliable sourcing works. To make the statement, "Gender segregation is more the exception than the rule in modern European sauna facilities" there needs to be a source that actually confirms that. An example of one case of non-gender segregation does not confirm it "as a rule". You also don't seem to understand some of the basic principles of logic. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. If I tell you that there is a teapot between the Earth and Mars that is revolving around the Sun, I can't prove that by telling you I have found no evidence to the contrary. If I write in a Wikipedia article that "most Americans are wealthy" and I cite a source of one wealthy American, how long do you think it would remain in an article? The fact that you can't find something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A very good source would be one that specifically states that "gender segregation is the exception", or (for example) that 85% of saunas do not have gender segregation). We can argue the specifics of how much is required for it to be "the rule" if you find a better source. But so far you have found nothing to support the statement. Sundayclose (talk) 18:58, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I do very well understand the points you're trying to make and I understand the logic of sourcing. The problem is that it's hard to find sources stating the "normal" case. You will find (as I have shown) sources stating some exception to this normal case and arguments about it. I haven't written the original sentence, I just think it's true because I can't find evidence otherwise. Maybe we should change that to something that says "Mixed-gender saunas are very common in german-speaking countries." or something alike? --PaterMcFly talk contribs 19:29, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the source does not confirm "very common". I'm not sure what you're missing here. One or two cases does not mean "more the exception than the rule" or "very common". I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but you first removed a legitimate "citation needed" tag simply based on your personal opinion, then you commented that citations are not needed for "obvious stuff", then you tried to source a very bold statement with a very inadequate source. The one part of your comments with which I agree is that you "just think it's true"; I'm glad you can acknowledge that. But adequate sources are required on Wikipedia. Sundayclose (talk) 19:45, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The source {{cite web|url=https://www.shz.de/lokales/flensburger-tageblatt/geschlechtertrennung-im-dampfbad-id14305831.html|title=Sauna-Streit auf höchster Ebene: Geschlechtertrennung im Dampfbad|publisher=Flensburger Tagblatt|accessdate=2017-05-14|date=2016-07-18} at least indirectly states that seggregation caused opposition, which also means that it's unexpected.
 * Actually, I must have been blind. The reference lies right under my nose: Manfred Scheuch: Nackt; Kulturgeschichte eines Tabus im 20. Jahrhundert; Christian Brandstätter Verlag; Wien 2004; ISBN 3-85498-289-5 Seite 158
 * I quote: In den Fitnesszentren und Kuranstalten wurde das finnische Bad, oft großzügig ausgestaltet zu ganzen Saunalandschaften, zum selbstverständlichen Angebot. Bemerkenswert ist, dass dort heute zumeist auf getrennte Badezeiten für Männer und Frauen verzichtet wird. Nacktheit von Mann und Frau in der Sauna wird hier längst akzeptiert [...] die seltenen Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel [...]. Verpöhnt ist [...] der Versuch, sich in Badekleidung [...] unter die Nackten zu mischen.  (my emphasis) --PaterMcFly talk contribs 20:22, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The Scheuch source seems acceptable to me to confirm "more the exception than the rule", although your specific quotation does not indicate a geographic location (please confirm that it's all of Europe rather than specific countries if the Wikipedia article states that). But I continue to state that the shz.de source does not confirm what's in the Wikipedia article. Sundayclose (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The shz source (and some others as well) indicate that the introduction of gender seggregation days is something new, so it's there not the common case. However you're of course right that it's not really suitable as proofing the general claim.
 * The geographical range of the quote above is not explicitly stated in the book, however he talks about a large raise in the number of available sauna facilities in Germany, Austria and Switzerland within a few years just in the preceeding paragraph. The book in general focuses on these countries. For some reason (which I haven't figured out yet), Sauna culture in Europe follows language boundaries, not political boundaries, so the above statement applies to german-speaking areas (Germany, Austria, the german part of Switzerland, Belgium and South Tyrol). This is confirmed in this article. Some googling seems to confirm that public nude sauna facilities outside this area are rare. What I've found i.e. in the french speaking part of Switzerland under the name of "Sauna" are actually more like brothels. (I haven't got enough evidence on the sauna culture there yet, though) --PaterMcFly talk contribs 20:11, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, googling is not a reliable source. And the source you link doesn't confirm that "Sauna culture in Europe follows language boundaries, not political boundaries". Let me suggest that you use only the Scheuch source (as it is the only one so far that clearly confirms anything), and reword to fit the countries named in the source. Sundayclose (talk) 00:31, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * (sorry for slow replies - RL keeps me busy) I was trying to figure out an adequate answer to your question, to where the statement applies. The book mentions germany, switzerland and austria. The link above extends the list to some neighbouring countries and regions. All of them happen to be speaking german or used to be under german influence (or just under the influence of german tourists?). I'm still trying to figure out why exactly this is so, as it is unlikely to be a coincidence. Scheuch states that the sauna came from finland to germany and austria after the second WW, because nazi german soldiers fighted together with finish soldiers (the finish army built Saunas in tents and bunkers). But he does not specify how it further evolved.
 * I assumed there was some way of giving a map of where which "kind" of sauna culture is most common, but this doesn't seem possible, also because the culture in an area seems to differ between places where tourist go (hotels, spa resorts) and facilities with mostly regular customers (see also the above link). It seems to be getting somewhat arbitrary which culture dominates in areas which speak german but where not under german control in or after WW2 (such as south tyrol or switzerland). I'll be trying to figure out a new wording for the paragraph. --PaterMcFly talk contribs 19:53, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

So, lets try this:
 * The sauna, originating from Finland, is attended nude in its source country as well as in most Scandinavian and in the German-speaking countries of Europe. This is true even when a swimsuit must be worn in the swimming pool area of the same complex. Saunas are very common in modern Finland, where there is one sauna for every three people and became very popular in the remainder of Europe in recent decades. German soldiers had got to know the finish Saunas during their fight against the Soviet Union in the Continuation War, where Germany and Finland fought on the same side. Finish hygiene dependend so exclusivelly on Saunas, that they had built Saunas not only in mobile tents but even in bunkers. . After the war, the german soldiers brought the habit back to Germany and Austria, where it became popular in the second half of the 20th century. The german sauna culture also became popular in neighbouring contries such as Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg. In contrast to Scandinavia, public Sauna facilities in these countries commonly do not seggregate genders while still keeping the rule of general nudity.

One general remark: The articles Sauna and nude swimming also need appropriate updating/sourcing. They should be the main articles on this subject, but their sourcing is very poor (although not contested). --PaterMcFly talk contribs 13:12, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2019
47.227.218.72 (talk) 19:43, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:58, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2019
THIS IS AN EDIT REQUEST

Please change these lines in Paragraph 3 from:

At most, as in the case of Homo neanderthalensis, they are believed to have worn only capes, if any coverings at all. This lack of behavioral adaptation, in turn, may have contributed to their eventual extinction during ancient climate changes when they may have succumbed to hypothermia, frostbite and other cold ailments.

To the following

In a paper published in Journal of Anthropological Archaeology,Researchers Mark Collard, Lia Tarle, Dennis Sandgathe and Alexander AllanIt of Simon Fraser University, in British Columbia Canada suggest that their work supports (but hardly proves) the hypothesis that Homo Neanderthalensis may have only known how to make cape-like coverings and that this lack of behavioral adaptation may have contributed to their eventual extinction during ancient climate changes when they may have succumbed to hypothermia, frostbite and other cold ailments.

Reason for requested change: The original paragraph cites an article in a secondary pop science website which distorts the published research by making its conclusions appear more definitive then they actually are. The pop-sci article then cites the original journal article ( doi.org/10.1016/j.jaa.2016.07.010 70.67.191.27 (talk) 05:36, 12 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done Someone implemented this change months ago but forgot to update it here Saucy[talk – contribs] 07:13, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Article may require image additions for a verity of people.
While scrolling through this article the imagery is very suggestive that only Caucasian people are nudist. Do we think there should be more of a verity of people here? Devonte88 (talk) 20:37, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Devonte88. I have just made a bunch of changes to the images on the page, both to get better quality pics and to add more ethnic diversity. SunCrow (talk) 05:37, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * My justification for changes to the images is as follows:
 * Lede image: Removed and replaced. Existing image was not a very good picture. Also, there is no need for an anatomical pose on this page. Replaced with a picture of a man and a woman in a more natural pose. The woman appears to be a woman of color.
 * Nude woman in Budapest: Removed and replaced with two (Asian) men in Malaysia. Racial diversity.
 * Group of naturists on a beach: Removed and replaced with four nude Masai tribesmen. Racial diversity.
 * Nude people at Przystanek Woodstock: Removed and replaced with nude people at 2015 WNBR, Los Angeles. Racial diversity.
 * WNBR in London, 2012: Removed and replaced with Nude woman and man at 2007 Fremont Solstice Parade. Racial diversity; also, the London image was taken from a slight distance and was not a very good picture.
 * Four women bathing together in a communal shower: Removed because it had nothing to do with the section it was located in. That section has now been removed.
 * Abu Ghraib image: Removed and replaced with different Abu Ghraib image that does not show genitalia. It seems inappropriate to me to use images in the encyclopedia that depict the genitalia of the abused prisoners. I highly doubt that they consented to the use of these images in this way. It is bad enough that the abuse took place; the victims--regardless of their crimes--shouldn't see their private parts in an encyclopedia.
 * Nude swimmers at a beach in Brighton: Replaced with nude men in sauna, which connects to the text in that section. There are other beach images on the page already.
 * Naked African man and nude woman and man in Malaysia: Both images added for racial diversity.
 * Hope that helps. SunCrow (talk) 20:48, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Terminology
Much content has been added without having defined terms. In some places a nudist camp in considered private, since the general public is excluded, while in other places it is lumped in with other instances of social nudity.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Lede
WriterArtistDC, thanks for all your hard work on this page. It is appreciated.

I just looked at the lede, and I found it confusing. I don't know what the second and third sentences mean. (Do some people really think that nudity renders a person non-human?!) The third and fourth sentences of the lede seem like they might belong in a history section. I don't have access to the book sources you cite, so I don't want to edit the material myself. Could I respectfully suggest that you take another look at the lede and consider tweaking it a bit? SunCrow (talk) 01:22, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I may have gotten ahead of myself as I read sources. The sentence in the lede about naked savages is indeed a summary of something that I need to expand upon in the history section. There are many references stating that colonial conquest around the world was justified in part by the nakedness of the indigenous people, which was taken by Europeans as a sign that they were less than fully human.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 02:02, 4 November 2019 (UTC)


 * WriterArtistDC, thanks again for all your hard work on this article. The lede is still not where it needs to be. I have edited it again to restore good sentence structure and to remove confusing language about nudity being an "absolute value". Also, I have removed the following sentence due to structural problems and due to its confusing wording: "As the only primate that is essentially hairless, and the only animal that wears clothes, nakedness and clothing are one of cultural categories for thinking about human identity, values, and moral behavior." The phrases "as the only primate that is essentially hairless, and the only animal that wears clothes" refer to humans--not to "nakedness and clothing". The sentence has to read, "As the only primates that are essentially hairless, and the only animals that wear clothes, human beings..." I am not sure what the rest of the sentence means, so I can't edit that part of it. SunCrow (talk) 19:10, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
 * SunCrow: I have restored my version as a straightforward statement that the topic of the article is not the dictionary definition of the term, but the cultural meaning of nudity; i.e. the norms and behaviors shared by a society and the historical/evolutionary/scientific background that explains cultural differences. The Barcan source is a fairly dense philosophical/social science discussion of the topic, and I appreciate that my first attempts may have been too technical, but since you left the content regarding the two Western cultural traditions, you must understand this at some level.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 20:44, 5 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I have once again corrected the grammar and sentence structure of the first two sentences. I have tagged the "absolute value" for clarification. SunCrow (talk) 21:23, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Tried again, don't think it could be clearer. I have begun to add summaries of the article section in the lede, which do not need citations. See above for other editing plans.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 03:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Much better, WriterArtistDC. Problems solved. Thank you. SunCrow (talk) 04:47, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Researching a touchy subject
A good deal of the content here before the current cleanup effort was surprisingly good, but had no sources to back it up; it was a "personal essay". There were also lots of random and POV edits.

I have a lot of background, as both an artist and social scientist, which influences how I understand the sources I am finding in order to make this a good WP article rather than an essay. Currently I am seeking reference to deal with the cn tags, but tend not to find sources for many areas, leaving gaps in historical behaviors, gender issues, and social biases.

The Western bias in the sources available is the most obvious problem, but a more subtle one is that the subject itself is "unmentionable", so no one published anything. I ran across the web page on naked coal miners by accident, looking for items on how male nudity was treated differently than female. There are likely many other historical situations where men, working in hot, dirty conditions, dispensed with clothing which they could not afford to get torn and dirty anyway.

Then there is the gender bias; women are left out of history systematically. In particular, for thousands of years, women's breasts were for feeding babies, and did not become an "erogenous zone" until almost the modern era, and never did in much of the world. The section on topfreedom needs to be returned to being a subtopic of Gender differences, which itself needs to be elevated to a subsection of Modern societies, since it cuts across the public/private distinction, as perhaps does Children also.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 16:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)