Talk:Nuestro Himno

Controversy
Changed the controvery as it was pretty POV. Said that it was flat out a bastardization, I think some would diagree. Cameron 05:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I was trying to follow up on somebody's suggestion and was not as careful as I should have been in my rephrasing. Thanks!--Rockero 06:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Lyrics
Can someone include the spanish lyrics? Also, it is difficult to provide direct translation from enlish-to-spanish-back-to-enlish, might want to mention that. -btbd 4-28-06
 * Got it taken care for you Stephen 20:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I've managed to source the first verse as based on the Snow translation of 1919. Can anybody confirm whether the second verse is novel, or whether it appears elsewhere? Also, the translation looks like a computer did it. "the flame of battle in step with liberty through the night it was said it was being defended"??  That's not very accurate (fulgor is closer to "brilliance" or "brightness" than to "flame") or idiomatic.  Can a native Spanish-speaker provide a better translation? -- Victor Lighthill 21:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

English translation
Jtalledo, where did you get your English translation? A literal translation would probably be appropriate here (sine most people reading the article will want to know what, exactly, Nuestro Himno says), and there are a few points where I'm not sure the one you posted is quite "on". (I'd change it myself, but my Spanish is only so-so.)  For example, is "gleaming emblem" really an accurate translation of señal? And what happened to the "fulgor de la lucha" ? -- Victor Lighthill 22:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I've corrected the English translation of the Spanish lyrics. I am a native speaker of English, but I've lived in Mexico for several years, and have near-native fluency in Spanish.  I welcome other near native speakers' comments/corrections on my translation. I also want to add that I haven't heard the song.  If there are inaccuracies in the Spanish lyrics, I've translated those inaccuracies into English.Jaksmata 23:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Another note: I disagree with the English translation that is on the NPR website and was the likely source of Jtalledo's post. As Lighthill pointed out, señal does not mean "gleaming emblem." It means "sign." Also the word "proudly" in the second line of the English translation on NPR's site does not appear in the Spanish lyrics. "Proudly" in Spanish is orgullosamente, and no form of that word appears in the second line. The word that *is* there is tanto, which means "much." Therefore, tanto aclamamos means "we hailed much," not "proudly hailed." (I'm starting to ramble, but aclamamos is probably closer to "we praised" than "we hailed")Jaksmata 00:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. The NPR translation was the source of my edit. I was going to reference the fact that it was the NPR translation, but got sidetracked. Good looking out. ;) --Jtalledo (talk) 11:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The translation is looking better. Are there any bilingual people around who can pronounce authoritatively on fulgor? We translate that line in three places now, and we give it as "flash", "glory", and "flame". Wikcionario doesn't have en entry for fulgor; my own Spanish dictionary says it means resplandor; brillo. Any ideas -- Victor Lighthill 15:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My Spanish-English dictionary gives brilliance and effulgence as translations of fulgor. --Mlc 04:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * An Argentinian on IRC just confirmed 'brilliance', so I'll change throughout. -- Victor Lighthill 04:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want another translation... here's one I made last night (I'm Argentinean, should be somewhat accurate). The parts with * may have a double meaning, though, such as «¡Se va defendiendo!» which could translate as «It leaves defending!» or «It goes defending!», and nearly every line has a comment below 'em.
 * Yeah, Spanish sux ;<
 * ''Dawn - Do you see it at the light of the aurora?

(Note: 'Amanece' could be translated as To Dawn, Dawns, or as an order to dawn. Don't even ask me how that's possible.)
 * ''That which we hailed so much when night fell;

(Note: Could be 'as night fell')
 * ''Its stars, its stripes [which] floated yesterday,
 * ''In fierce combat, in sign of victory.
 * ''Brilliance of struggle, to the step of liberty,
 * ''Through the night they said: «It leaves defending!»*1
 * ''Oh, said! Spread still your starry beauty,

(Note: 'Decid' -I put said-, is 2° persona plural, pain in the neck to translate. Say you, the current thing, will probably fit better)
 * ''Over land of frees, the holy flag?


 * ''Its starts, its stripes, the liberty, we are equals.
 * ''We are brothers, its our hymn.

(Note: Hymn and anthem are the same word in Spanish.)
 * ''In fierce combat, in sign of victory,
 * ''Brilliance of struggle... (My people, keep fighting!)
 * ''...to the step of liberty (It is time to shatter the chains!*2)
 * ''Through the night they said: «It leaves defending!»*1
 * ''Oh, said! Does it still spread its starry beauty,
 * ''Over land of frees, the holy flag?


 * 1 Like noted at the beginning, «It leaves defending!» or «It goes defending!» would both be accurate.
 * 2 'Shatter' is most likely 'break', and "it is time to" could be "it's already time to"

Now.. A few things that bother me about the current English translation: Line 1: The whole aurora comment was replaced by light of dawn. Line 5 (al paso de la libertad,): Current translation states 'in step with freedom,', but for that to be correct, the Spanish should be 'en paso con la libertad'. Line 6(por la noche decían: «¡Se va defendiendo!»): For 'Throughout the night' to be the translation, the Spanish should've been "durante". The "It will be defended!" is also wrong, in Spanish that'd be "Será defendido!", but the lyrics say «¡Se va defendiendo!». Line 7: Minor thing. 'Wave' ain't the correct translation. Spread might as well be, though I'm sure there is something more fancy to put in there.. Too lazy to check a thesaurus though. Line 9: "Over the land of the free", In Spanish, is "Sobre la tierra de los libres". I believe my translation is more literal here.

Line 10: "Somos iguales" is, most obviously, plural, while the translation, "we are equal", is missing an s. Line 12 (Mi gente, ¡sigue luchando!): Note the comma? Changes the meaning a slight bit.

I think that's about it. Will change stuff here later on, if anyone cares about this shizzle. -- Sir Anonymous. Also: I need to learn how'ta use Wikipedia, rather than just read articles :' ( Formatting this edit is TUFF.

Jaksmata: It’s like I said in the article – the translation can never be exact, and will always be subject to differing interpretations. Someone changed the punctuation in the first line from “¿Amenece, lo veis, a la luz de la aurora?” To “Amanece – ¿ lo véis a la luz de la aurora?” That changed the meaning of the line from “Do you see it arising, by the light of the dawn” to “Wake up – do you see by the light of the dawn? It would be interesting to know what the song’s author actually intended that resulted in this ambiguity. There are other places where non-audible punctuation could change the meaning of the lyrics.

That brings up an interesting point. We know from the article who “came up with the idea” for this song, and also who sings it, but who wrote it? How much Spanish do they know? Is the confusing phrase “¡Se va defendiendo!” the result of poetic license, or lack of fluency? The literal “It goes defending itself” just doesn’t make sense to me, which is why I translated it as “It is defending itself.” To me, it would make more sense to say “Se defiende,” (“it is defended”) but I think the author padded it to make it fit the meter of the original. Another possiblility is this: Maybe the Spanish lyrics are “¡Se está defendiendo!” (meaning literally “it is defending itself,” or in other words, “it is being defended”). Spanish language songs frequently combine the last letter of one word and the first letter of the next when both are vowels in order to keep the meter. If that’s the case, the line is pronounced “sestá defendiendo,” which may have been misunderstood as “se va defendiendo.”

I also wonder how much regional Spanish variations play into this. Through my own experience, I have learned the difference between how they speak Spanish in Guadalajara, Mexico (where I first learned it) and Dallas, Texas, USA, (where I now live). It’s common knowledge that different countries/regions also have their variations. I’m sure the Spanish spoken by the Argentinean contributor (Sir Anonymous?) differs as much from mine as my English differs from a Londoner’s. Same words, different meanings… I’m tempted to rebut the Argentinean’s translation, but I don’t think we’ll ever concur for that reason. Jaksmata 15:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Controversy section
Worth noting in the controversy section - the fact that the song is debuting amid the immigration controversy in the United States. And also the fact that while there are other translations of the song in existence, this appears to be the first major studio recording and commercial release of such a translation. These two issues are big parts of the controversy. --Jtalledo (talk) 12:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Parody not Translation
The song is not a translation, it is a parody.

The Original Star Spangled Banner:

O say, can you see, by the dawn's early light, What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming? Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight, O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming? And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air, Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there. O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen thro' the mists of the deep, Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes, What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep, As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses? Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam, In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream: 'Tis the star-spangled banner: O, long may it wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion, A home and a country should leave us no more? Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave: And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation; Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation! Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!” And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
 * Check out the article on [Parody]. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. To be parody, you not only need to change the words, you need to use ridicule. There isn't much evidence that the intent or effect is to mock the Key's original. -- Victor Lighthill 05:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Original Version called "Vandalism"
I put the original Francis Scott Key version of the song on the site, and another user deleted it because he called in "Vandalism." Vandalism based on what?
 * Here are the changes made by User:Clydeman:  As you can see, they are deliberately POV and unencyclopedic in nature.  The lyrics to "The Star-Spangled Banner" don't belong in this article either.  I reverted User:Clydeman's first contributions and then the subsequent ones because they were similarly POV in nature.  --Randy 20:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to debate the reversion - I wan't involved in this article at the time and didn't see the change. However I have to at least ask why you believe the original lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner don't belong here?  A link to the appropriate Wikipedia article certainly includes that information, and I can accept that.  I do wonder, however, if a side-by-side comparison of English translation of Nuestro Himno and the Star Spangle Banner is a good idea, especially as the criticisms often cite the non-literal nature of the move to Nuestro Himno from the original English.  What do you all think? --ABQCat 06:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If we had a nice three-column setup, that would be totally worth it.--Rockero 07:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd vote for a 4-column setup, with Key's original, Snow's 1919 Bureau of Education translation, the Nuestro Himno version, and the English re-translation. Probably wouldn't fit, though. --Victor Lighthill 08:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what value the 1919 translation would bring except to show that Nuestro Himno isn't the same. I think the contrast that is perhaps most important as it deals most with the controversy is that of the english translation and the original.  What was your rationale for including it?  I'm just curious. --ABQCat 08:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd support whatever 3 or 4 column setup you guys would like to include, but the way User:Clydeman did it isn't the way we should approach it. --Randy 11:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

This article is in error
This article says: "Nuestro Himno" is a Spanish translation of "The Star-Spangled Banner"
 * It is flat out not a translation. It is a different song.

This article is in error. Compare yourself. One song is about a battle of the War 1812, the other is not. User:Clydeman
 * While the War of 1812 provides the setting and the context of the US national anthem, the song is not about the War itself. Rather, it is about the flag, and whether or not it "yet wave[s]". In this sense, the translation is accurate.--Rockero 22:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Look at Key's Lyrics: How much do you see of it in Nuestro Himno? It NOT a translation, it is a parody. The first Spanish translation came out over 150 years ago. "In a sense" sounds rather weak. User:Clydeman

"Parody" is a bit harsh. I think that the world "translation" is wrong, and should be replaced by "version". dposse 04:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a REAL translation
Below is a REAL translation, not a parody. Read it and compare it to the Nuestra Himno parody.

La bandera estrellada Traducción por Guillermo F. Hall, de Guatemala

Oh, decid: ¿podeis ver, al rayar de la aurora lo Que vimos anoche orgullosos flotar? La estrellada bandera, tremolando altanera, encumbrada en La torre y excitando luchar! Y a la luz de la roja, fulgurante centella, la Bandera ondeaba, ondeaba más bella; Y a través de la densa humareda inflamada, Con qué orgullo miramos la bandera ondear!

¡El pendón de la Patria, la bandera estrellada, Encumbrada en la almena convidando a luchar!

Oh! decid, ¿todavía contemplais la bandera, La estrellada bandera, Sobre suelo de libres que defienden su hogar? A través de la niebla, de la mar a la orilla Iracundo enemigo nos atisba a marchar. ¿Qué es aquello que ondula, que flamea y simula Un enjambre de estrellas refulgiendo en el mar? Ya del alba recoge la primer llamarada; Ya se oculta en la niebla, ya aparece inflamada; Ya ostentando sus glorias se refleja en el río; Ya sus franjas y estrellas nos deslumbran al par.

¡El pendón de la Patria, tremolando bravio Y flamenado en la almena nos incita a luchar!

¡El pendón de la Patria, la estrellada bandera, Tremolando altanera Sobre suelo de libres que defienden su hogar!

¿Dónde está la falange enemiga y aleve Que con vana porfía se atreviera a jurar Que al fragor de la guerra, en la lucha que aterra, Perderíamos patria y familia y hogar? ¡Con su sangre lavara la verguenza inferida De su paso a la hulla por la tierra querida! Encontrar no podría un refugio el taimado, Que en su fuga oprobiosa la pudiera salvar Del terror de esa fuga, del morir angustiado Con el ansia del triunfo que no pudo alcanzar. Mientras tanto tremola la estrellada bandera Y triunfante, altanera, Sobre suelo de libres nos custodia el hogar Siempre así, cuando altivo se levante el patriota Defendiendo su suelo, su familia y su hogar, La radiante victoria lo circunde de gloria, ¡Y bendiga al Eterno que lo hiciera triunfar! Y pues Dios nos asiste y la lucha es tan santa, Y el pendón de la Patria nos alienta y levanta, Conservemos la Patria, el hogar que adoramos, Y adoptamos por lema, sacrosanto y sin par: ¡"Sea Dios nuestro guía; en su apoyo confiamos!"

¡Justiciera es la causa que nos manda a luchar, Y el pendón de la Patria, la estrellada bandera, Tremolando altanera, Sobre suelo de libres nos conserve el hogar!


 * Notice it says "our guide Is God" and "defend our home" User:Clydeman

When it comes to translating languages, what is a "REAL translation" is subjective. Believe me, many people would argue that this version is not completely accurate either. But, any way, none of the producers have claimed that "Nuestro Himno" is a "translation" of the "Star-Spangled Banner". Even the name of the song is different! God duly noted but fail to see the point -Rafanetx 19:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Sacred?
"Their opinion is that using the song for any purpose other than to honor the nation, and especially in such a way as it is being used, takes away from the song’s sacred nature."

This line should probably be reworded (or simply rewritten) to avoid giving the impression that Wikipedia is stating the song's sacredness as a fact; make it more clear that this is part of the opinion in question. (And provide a citation, to avoid violating WP:AWW.) -Silence 23:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The current rewrite is a bit bizarre, though. Who is Victor Martinez and why is what he thinks relevant? It seems very non-encyclopedia-like as it stands. -Mlc 05:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Mexican National Anthem calls for Violence Against Americans
"War, war without truce against who would attempt to blemish the honor of the fatherland! War, war! The patriotic banners drench in waves of blood" "And may your temples, palaces and towers crumble in horrid crash, and ruins remain"  Those vicious lyrics of the Mexican Anthem is directed against Americans, folks. -User:Clydeman
 * How egocentric.--TheAlphaWolf 00:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Please only use this talkpage to discuss the content of the article. Other discussions do not belong here. Thanks, --Rockero 03:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

"Supporters of illegal immigration"
I get what you're trying to say, but this sounds pretty POV to me; I'd agree that some opponents of the song characterize its proponents as supporters of illegal immigration, but they probably characterize themselves as supporters of immigration reform. As phrased, the article seems to endorse the former view. I'm new to this stuff: how does "supporters of less restrictive immigration policies" sound? --Victor Lighthill 16:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Your rephrasing sounds POV in the other direction to me; there may be some who would dispute that the current policies are "restrictive" at all. Possibly "supporters of illegal immigrants" would be the most NPOV form?  I think both sides would be able to read it as supportive of their point of view, which therefore leaves it tied to neither. :) &mdash; Haeleth Talk 11:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, every immigration policy is restrictive, so long as it puts restrictions on immigration. Still, I'm going with your suggestion, in hopes it'll be more acceptable. --Victor Lighthill 13:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I am deleting the last paragraph reference to lands "stolen" and "conquered" from "First Nations" peoples, and how the anthem is written in "english" [sic] for "caucasians" [sic]. Not NPOV writing and it is an agenda-driven addition to the article.  Additionally, First Nations is the Canadian way of refering to indigenous Native Americans, and the article deals with a United States topic.  Furthermore, it is an irrelevant observation unrelated to the article's topic, which deals with a Spanish language version of the United States national anthem.

The national anthem
USA Today/Gallup Poll. April 28-30, 2006. N=1,011 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Which comes closer to your view? It is only appropriate for people to sing the U.S. national anthem in English. OR, If people want to, it is appropriate for them to sing the U.S. national anthem in Spanish." Options rotated
 * English Only 69%
 * Spanish too 29%
 * Unsure 3%

4/28-30/06

Copyright on 2006 lyrics?
I noticed that there's no direct attribution of source or copyright to the 2006 Spanish lyrics in this article. Is this translation property of Adam Kidron? Besides being a legal issue for Wikipedia, it seems to me by far the most important aspect of this story - if Spanish-speaking Americans rally around this particular version, these lyrics could acquire a truly amazing market value. If America were to transition to being mostly Spanish speaking over the next century or so, the country could set the curious precedent (or is it?) of having a privately copyrighted official anthem that citizens could not legally sing in public.
 * Si Estados Unidos pasara a ser un país hispanohablante, me imagino que se usaría una versión no copyrighteada. A lo mejor el himno permanecería en inglés, como en el caso de Singapore, cuyo himno se canta en malay por cuestiones historicas a pesar de que la gran mayoría del pueblo singaporiano no habla ni entiende malay.

One little comma
I reverted back to what I believe is the official punctuation in line 6 of the second stanza, removing the comma between "gente" and "sigue" and eliminating the exclamation points. Sir Anonymous understates the difference the comma makes. Without it, a statement is made, "My people fight on," or "My people continue struggling." The insertion of the comma changes it to an injunction to keep fighting. Sir Anonymous must not know enough Spanish to realize that if a command were intended the Spanish verb form would have to be in the imperative mood; "Seguid." "Sigue" is indicative mood, present tense, third person [collective] singular. It is impossible to translate that as a command. Therefore, there should be no comma. This is assuming that the lyrics given at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5369145 and elsewhere are correct and official. (Good question re. copyright.) Yopienso 17:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yopienso, "sigue" is also imperative. A common chant is "¡no pare!, ¡sigue, sigue!". it's just singular rather than plural. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 01:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Hip-hop style remix?
I don't think "remix" can be correct - a remix implies making a modified version of a specific recording by a particular artist. This isn't the case here, so I changed it to "version".

I'm also dubious about "hip-hop style". Admittedly I haven't listened to the song closely but it doesn't seem to have much in common with most hip-hop I've heard. I actually prefer the original and more neutral "Spanish-language interpetation", and I propose reverting it to that unless someone objects.
 * I think I'll fool around a little with that and see what I can hcome up with --Node 11:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The article also fails to mention that the translation uses traditional Iberian Spanish rather than a Latin American standard. --Node 11:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind, many/most Bible translations use the vosotros form, even in América. —Wiki Wikardo 00:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Copyrighted info
A great part of this article has been literally taken from: here where rewritting ir prohibited. So, this is incompatible with GFDL license. Retestsm 11:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Move?
Should this article not be at Nuestro himno, following correct Spanish titlecase? —Wiki Wikardo 00:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)