Talk:Numbered highways in Ohio

Untitled

 * Also see: Route classifications discussion page

Ohio Turnpike
IMO The Ohio Turnpike does not belong here. List of Ohio State Highways to me says roads such as OH 32 or OH 8. To me, the Ohio Turnpike is an Interstate and should go on a separate page. If we're including the Ohio Turnpike, why not US routes that go through Ohio?


 * I think the Interstates and U.S. Highways should be included here, but not listed as "Ohio Turnpike". --SPUI (talk) 04:10, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree. This is a list for state highways.  I removed the US highways, but left the Ohio 'pike in a See Also section because of possible  reader confusion.  --ChrisRuvolo (t) 22:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cleaned up page
Also see: [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Multiple_reverts]

The cleaned up List of Ohio State Highways was conducted because:
 * The majority of state highway pages are in the List of {state} State Highway naming convention.
 * List of numbered highways in Ohio seems to be quite lengthy for something that should be short and to the point.

I'm aiming for uniformity here.

My reasonings for creating a Template:OH Highways was:


 * Reduce the huge amount of clutter on List of numbered highways in Ohio, which has a horribly dated design, non-user friendly interface, and is not uniform with other state highway projects.
 * Seperate the List of numbered highways in Ohio page into List of Interstate Highways in Ohio, List of U.S. Highways in Ohio and List of State Highways in Ohio to conform with other state highway projects, such as West Virginia State Highways. This reduces the main page clutter and page size, and presents the user with an easier navigating interface.
 * I'm trying for some uniformity here, much as what SPUI is asking for the route/highway designations. Instead of seeing this, he reverted it, undid all of my work and other user contributions, and is taking all of this one big step back for the sake of having "his way" once again. It has been reverted until such discussion can take place and that a consensus among other editors and highway contributors (not just SPUI) can take place.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 05:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You copy-paste moved; this is to be avoided. Other than that, ODOT does not duplicate numbers; it makes sense to put the U.S. Routes and Interstates in with the State Routes. Your version, with 19 routes per row, is reasonable, but one has to look closely to see if a route is decommissioned. --SPUI (T - C) 07:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure one has to look closely, but I would hate to go through and use an individual row for a one highway and end up with 600 rows. What is another way to indicate a decommissioned road? Perhaps put them in a seperate table just below the current routes but within the same template?


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
'''Voting lasts until Tuesday, August 15, 2006. Seicer who initated the move may be out of town, so if anyone wants to pick up the move or if you want to wait until I get back is fine with me (if the vote passes).'''
 * List of numbered highways in Ohio → List of Ohio State Highways … Rationale: Numerous other state highway projects, such as List of Kentucky State Highways, List of Idaho State Highways, and List of Tennessee state highways use the same naming system. To reduce confusion and enhance the visibility of the page, it was requested that the page be moved.

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~


 * Support: Reason stated above.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 05:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is your evidence that "Ohio State Highways" is a formal term and should be capitalized? --SPUI (T - C) 06:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose; I see no reason to move it. "Ohio State Highways" is not a formal term. --SPUI (T - C) 06:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support for uniformity sake. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 21:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is your evidence that "Ohio State Highways" is a formal term and should be capitalized? --SPUI (T - C) 06:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is your evidence that it isn't? JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 01:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ohio DOT doesn't call them State Highways, much less Ohio State Highways: "A portion of the eastbound State Route 16 driving lane (right lane) in Muskingum County is restricted just west of State Route 60 (mile marker 8.9) for a slip repair project. Traffic is maintained in the passing lane at this location. The duration of the lane closure is unknown at this time."
 * An external website also refers to them as Routes, which is an abbreviation of State Route:.
 * this web site, although titled with "Ohio State Highways", uses the term Routes to describe each State Route. His capitalisation of Ohio State Highway is context of making the entire phase "Unofficial" Ohio State Highways Web Site a proper noun. atanamir 01:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs)  21:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is your evidence that "Ohio State Highways" is a formal term and should be capitalized? --SPUI (T - C) 06:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. The new name sounds better to me --Edgelord 02:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is your evidence that "Ohio State Highways" is a formal term and should be capitalized? --SPUI (T - C) 06:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. FLWfan
 * Where is your evidence that "Ohio State Highways" is a formal term and should be capitalized? --SPUI (T - C) 06:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose current proposal but Support "List of Ohio state highways" (note capitalisation) or "List of highways in Ohio" - "Ohio State Highways" is not a formal term/proper noun, and "List of numbered highways in Ohio" sounds really cumbersome to me. --jam  es (talk) 02:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC) resigned because i'm a policy wonk
 * Oppose the use of "Ohio State Highways" as a proper noun. atanamir 06:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose – I would rather see "List of State Routes in Ohio," capitalized or not. Are we calling them "highways" or "routes" in Ohio? – Homefryes 10:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Agree with User:Homefryes that "List of State Routes in Ohio" is a better name for this list, which is primarily a list of state-numbered routes. If this is changed to a list of all state-maintained roads, then "List of state highways in Ohio" (definitely not capitalized) could be acceptable. --Polaron | Talk 15:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Support move, however capitalized. Thumbelina 17:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "Ohio State Highways" is not a proper name. I've no preference at this time whether it would be better as "List of state highways in Ohio", "List of numbered highways in Ohio", or "List of state routes in Ohio". I might suggest something like "Ohio highway system", similar to Michigan highway system might be acceptable. older ≠ wiser 01:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 *  Strong Oppose per above. "state routes" might be acceptable, however. struck out because this contains various types of roads. The title is perfect, as-is. --CharlotteWebb 11:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
What about List of Ohio state highways? state highway is a generic umbrella term for all types of state-administered highways; Ohio's DOT refers to them as State Routes and not as the proper noun Ohio State Highway. Another possibility is List of State Routes in Ohio? atanamir 06:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Either term is acceptable to me. Minor capitalization issues should not worry anyone, as it is the content that matters, not how it is capitalised or formatted. I think people are spending way too much time on this.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 06:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You'd assume so, huh? Surprisingly back in the more intense days there was a huge argument over a move from "List of California County Routes" to "List of California county routes" or something of the sort. =/.  atanamir 06:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * One more thing -- is it innocuous enough of a move to move List of U.S. Highways in Ohio to List of U.S. Routes in Ohio? There is a wide acceptance of the term 'U.S. Route' already.  Furthermore, since you've started the naming scheme List of type of road in Ohio, the name List of State Routes in Ohio fits the other two pages as well. atanamir 06:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That would be fine with me. On the pages I've begun editing lately, such as those in D.C. and in Vermont, I've used the locally accepted term, which was 'route' in those instances. I didn't begin the "List of type of road" - but thought the idea was great after seeing it on the West Virginia highways page.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 06:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * List of Ohio state highways is better but still puts undue weight on the neologism "Ohio state highways". List of numbered highways in Ohio clearly describes the purpose of this page. List of State Routes in Ohio does not, because "State Route" does not appear to describe Interstates or U.S. Routes. --SPUI (T - C) 06:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I saw that they split Interstates and U.S. Routes out onto separate pages; thus 'List of Ohio state highways' or 'List of State Routes in Ohio' or 'List of state highways in Ohio' seem to fit the content of this page well. atanamir 06:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's another idea that doesn't make much sense. There aren't that many Interstates or U.S. Routes; we don't need a separate page listing them. --SPUI (T - C) 06:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I am aiming for uniformity here. In states where there are a lot of US routes and interstates, it can quickly clutter a page or increase the page size to unacceptable limits. It also frees the main page to discuss the history of the state route system, or expand it to include other features if that is the case.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 06:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
 * As for history, that can either be covered on another prominently-linked page (history of numbered highways in Ohio) or we can have numbered highways in Ohio as the main article, linking to the list at list of numbered highways in Ohio. --SPUI (T - C) 07:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't move the History to any seperate page for now since there is nothing there in terms of content. The page itself can be made very short once the State Route List is on its own seperate page (pending what design is applicable to the template or page). This would free up a lot of room that the history can be adequately placed on the main List of highways in Ohio page, until such time that it would warrant its own seperate page.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 07:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ohh, I see the purpose of this page now. In its current state it's kind of like a 'disambiguation' page with links to the different type of lists of road.  If "numbered highways" is too wordy, what about simply List of highways in Ohio?  I think the term 'highway' can be applied to all three types of road because they're all "major roads intended for travel by the public between important destinations".  Without question 'numbered highways' is the most specific, but it seems most poeple above don't like it. atanamir 06:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I would have thought that List of Ohio state highways would be approperiate, since all highways are maintained by the state, but since we are acting on reducing confusion for many "non roadgeeks" and to simplify the naming process, "List of highways in Ohio" sounds like a nice fit. It is shorter, removes the word "states" (which is implictly assumed, right?), and can be used as a standard for other highway pages in other states.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 06:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The only caveat to this is that it could be a little too broad -- there are unnumbered highways as well (which, in the case of Ohio, the turnpike can fall under), so the title would imply it would be a list of all the highways in Ohio, numbered or unnumbered. But that seems like an acceptable 'risk' to take, given the simplicity it offers, right? atanamir 07:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I would surmise so. The title could also give some leeway in discussing some non-state maintained routes, such as the Ohio Turnpike (linking from the table). Just how many unnumbered highways would we come across if we went ahead with the move? I would assume very little, and if there are any, it would still fit under the broad category. List of highways in Ohio can include numbered and unnumbered, since it makes no reference to the numbering scheme (as it does in the current title), nor does it make no reference to state maintaince.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 07:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's not get into a discussion on whether or not it should be spelled "state highway" or "state route". Let's use the commonly accepted term for the time being, until such time we can come to a concensus at that big debate (wherever it is at).  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 16:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Consensus on naming
I'm getting many mixed signals here. There are many comments that the current title is too long and rather redundant. I've got that the title, outside of the first word and the state, should be lowercased. So... let's break the discussion down into two parts:
 * Should the page title feature "highway" or "route" in its name, and
 * should the page title follow:
 * 6 support "List of Ohio State Highways" (''Seicer, JohnnyBGood, Rschen7754, Edgelord, FLWfan, Thumbelina)
 * 3 support "List of Ohio state highways" (Seicer, james, atanamir)
 * 8 support "List of Ohio State/state Highways/highways" naming convention (Seicer, JohnnyBGood, Rschen7754, Edgelord, FLWfan, Thumbelina, james, atanamir)
 * 1 support "List of state highways in Ohio" (Polaron)
 * 1 support "List of State/state Routes/routes in Ohio" (Homefryes)
 * 1 support "Ohio highway system" (Bkonrad) - Made the comment that he doesn't support the capitalization of "State Highways".

Comments
I support the "List of Ohio State/state Highways/highways" naming convention, but after hearing the arguments made for both cases, the lowercased naming system makes sense since "state highways" is not a proper noun.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 03:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Adding onto that, if the capitalization of "State Highway" is of some bother, do those that voted for "List of Ohio State Highways" mind changing their vote to "List of Ohio state highways" since it is a relatively minor detail?  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 03:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Shall we start a vote for List of highways in Ohio, as that would best reflect the current content of the page? atanamir 04:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems that "List of Ohio state highways" would fit better. Since capitalization of the proper noun is not the biggest concern amongst ourselves, I don't think that many would object if it was kept lowercase?  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 04:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In reality it does need to be capitalized. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs)  19:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? It is not a proper noun. older ≠ wiser 21:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We had this debate a long time ago: Talk:List of California State Routes (may be in archives). --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs)  21:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * At the ODOT sites, I see "State Route" (capitalized) used fairly consistently. I did not notice any instances of "State Highway" or "state highway". If this article has to be named "List of X", then it should be "List of State Routes in Ohio". Though I think something like "Ohio highway system" allows the flexibility to include non-list information. older ≠ wiser 21:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay then why not "List of Ohio State Routes"? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs)  21:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's OK as well. older ≠ wiser 22:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Note that there is already a List of State Highways in Ohio (which should properly be called List of State Routes in Ohio) separate from this list which included U.S. Highways and Interstate Highways. --Polaron | Talk 22:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * State Route is the (proper noun hence the capitalisation) term to describe the highways with this shield: [[Image:Ohio State Highway 7.svg|20px]]. Because this page contains multiple types of state highways, the name "List of Ohio State Routes" does not match this article's content. atanamir 23:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: Per Naming conventions and standard use throughout Wikipedia, any word that is not a proper noun ought to be lowercase. While "State Route X" may be the proper name of a road, highways in general may not. —Centrx→talk &bull; 02:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Here in Logan County, I normally hear and read "State Route __" while people might travel along "state highways" to get somewhere. I personally think "List of Ohio state highways" would be the best (the best generic term with the most proper capitalization), but I don't think that it really matters much.  Consensus matters most to me: I put up several articles on short highways that begin and end in Logan County today, using "Ohio State Highway __" as the name.  Nyttend 23:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to agree with this and just state that it should be named List of Ohio state routes. On the main page, interstates, US routes, and primary routes should be listed.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 00:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

State Route Page Design
I wish to pattern the List of State Highways in Ohio on the state route box at List of Routes in Vermont. People seem to like this design well (gauging interest at other state highway pages). What do you think? The full design list that I have created can be found at User:Seicer/sandbox1.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 16:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The Vermont list looks really nice; it seems like a great idea for Ohio as well :-) I had trouble with a few state highway articles I put up today, since none of them had pre-made sign images (obviously!) and I don't have the software to make .svg images.  On the other hand, I'm not likely to put up much on state highways, so I don't think my opinion is as important as others'.  Nyttend 23:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Route Classifications
I moved the Route Classifications to their own seperate talk page. The reasoning was that the lists made the talk page very long and were not really a "discussion" per se. A big box was made at the top of the page so it can't be missed :)  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 02:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Added  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 04:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)