Talk:Nurhaci

Untitled
The Manchu form is misspelled; there should be a back  or a back  after the  (both forms are attested). -Anon.

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I think this page needs a fair amount of work still.

I appreciate the efforts others have made, but it is awfully brief an entry for such an important person. I noticed that such people as FDR have practically a book written about them, with their minor personal flaws mentioned.

To describe, in brief, what I see the problems of this page to be:

1. poor description of the campaigns leading up to his establishment of the Late Jin. 2. lack of understanding of his interaction with Joseon Dynasty Korea 3. a weak handle on the sources. I don't think any serious historian would rely that heavily on works such as the Manzhou Shilu. For some reason, the Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty are not mentioned, nor are the Old Manchu Archives.

4. General lack of detail and organization.

Also, previously there was an eroneous link to a Mongol called Monke. I will try to establish an entry for Monke Timur to provide an accurate link.

Nitangae, July 1, 2005

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It's true, the image of the Manchu script listed says "Nuraci", it should be Nurgaci or Nurhaci.

Is it meaningful to say that the Aisin Gioro clan originated in present day North Korea? According to legend (and legend only, as far as I know) the Aisin Gioro clan originated in the Long White Mountains (Chin. Chang-bai-shan, Ma. golmin shanggiyan alin), which are at the very north end of North Korea. I believe all that is known historically, however, is that the Aisin Gioro clan came from the vicinity of Jianzhou.

Is it accurate to say that the former Jurchen empire was formed by former citizens of Koguryo? Koguryo ended in 668, the former Jurchen empire was founded in 1115 by a Jurchen ruler named Aguda.

Respectfully, bdct, Jan 15, 2005.

- 13 suits of armor? for himself? Perhaps you could clarify. 17 Jan. 2006
 * yea, so i was watching the tv show... when Nurhaci becomes governor (chieftan?) of Jianzhou, his family (who he only met after a long time when they were dying) had been ambushed by Nikaiwanlai, and the Jianzhou army wiped out, save 13 suits or armor left in the city. assumedly, these armor were worn by his 13 top generals and elite soldiers (whoever they would be).

yea, and i'll go add a redirect to here from Nuerhachi. no wait i dont know how to do that 1698 2006 March 6 07:33 Zulu

Please check
I have tried to make this a bit clearer and reorganize it. I hope I did not introduce any errors. Please check my edits.--Filll 18:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Huang Taji = Huang Taiji?
I've been editing this article in an attempt to streamline and improve clarity, and I cam across something that I don't know how to handle. Is Taji here just a typo - is it really supposed to be Huang Taiji? I think it is, so I changed it - but if it ISN'T then it would be useful from the reader's perspective to have an explanation as to who this Taji is, and how he fits into the story... Anyone know? Thanks! Isocephaly 00:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The status of Banners didn't change too much and was mostly in control of the royalties. The 2 Yellow Banners were consistently under Nurhaci's control. The 2 Blue Banners were under Surhaci's (Nurhaci's brother) control until he died, which then the 2 banners were given to Surhaci's 2 sons. The White Banner was for the most reign controlled by Nurhaci's eldest son, until he rebellled. Then the Striped White Banner was given to Nurhaci's grandson and the Plain White was given to Huang Taji(Chinese:皇太極). At the end of Nurhaci's reign, Huang Taji controlled both White Banners. The Red Banner consistently was with Daishan (Nurhaci's 2nd son) throughout his lifetime.

Nurhaci was succeeded by his eighth son, Huang Taiji. It is said he took the throne by letting his father's consort Abahai commit suicide in order to block the succession of his younger brother Dorgon. The reason for such controversy is because Nurhaci left his 2 Yellow Banners (the elite banners) to Dorgun and DuDo who were the sons of Abahai. Later, Huang Taji would switch his 2 White Banners for the 2 Yellow Banners giving him influence and power. At the same time, by forcing Abahai to suicide, there would be no one to support the 14 and 15 years old DuDo and Dorgun.

Nurhaci's daughters
According to several scripts like "满洲实录" and "满文老档" Nurhaci's oldest daughter was named Nunje (嫩哲格格) and not his second daughter. These documents also say that his second daughter was name Yánje (颜哲), third daughter Manguji (莽古济), fourth daugher Mukusi (穆库什) and eight daughter (聪古伦). See also "清初内国史院满文档案" and "聪九档". Althought "清皇室四谱" states that Nunje was the name of Nurhaci's second daughter. Just wanted to discuss this.

If i'm correct his eldest daughter was named Princess Donggo after she married Hohori from the Donggo clan. Not Princess Dongmu. Her sisters were named Princess Hada and Princess Bira/Zhānhe after marriage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TYK1986 (talk • contribs) 15:04, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Date of birth
Is the date given for Nurhaci's birth correct?

In the Yargiyan Kooli it says "juwan ilaci biya de nikan i daiming gurun i giya jing han i gūsin jakūci sohon honin aniya banjiha", "he was born in the thirteenth month, in the yellow sheep year, the thirty-eighth year of the Jiājìng reign of the Ming". The thirty-eighth year of Jiājìng began in 1559, which was a yellow sheep year, but the thirteenth month would have actually fallen in Jan-Feb 1560. 138.88.75.94 (talk) 13:43, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Never mind...I think the text means he was born "in the thirteenth month of her pregnancy". Other Chinese texts say she was pregnant for thirteen months. 138.88.75.94 (talk) 13:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The article had contradictory dates of both 8 April and 14 May. From the Chinese Wikipedia page, it frankly sounds kinda sus like OR for how they derived the exact date.  I kicked it back to just a year, but if someone has a better source, feel free to use it.  SnowFire (talk) 08:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Qing dynasty Aisin Gioro Y chromosome DNA found in ethnic minorities
Aisin Gioro Y chomosome DNA was found in "Xibe, Outer Mongolians, Inner Mongolians, Ewenki, Oroqen, Manchu, and Hezhe" males and number around 1 million people. Their ancestor was Nurhaci's grandfather Giocangga, whose descendants made up the Qing dynasty nobility. But the Y chromosome was not found in the general Han Chinese population.

The Y chromosome cluster is specifically C3c, part of the General Haplogroup C-M217, which Genghis Khan's lineage is a part of, although the Manchu Aisin Gioro Y chromosome is part of a different cluster than Genghis Khan's

The reason it spread among these specific minority groups, but not among the Han Chinese population, is because the Qing Manchu nobility was concentrated specifically in the ethnically Manchu Eight Banners and not in the Mongolian and Han Eight Banners, and the specific ethnic groups which made up the Manchu Eight banners were "Manchu, Mongolian, Daur, Oroqen, Ewenki, Xibe".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1285168/

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/pdf/S0002-9297(07)63394-1.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707633941

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/23

Rajmaan (talk) 21:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Number   5  7  12:58, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Nurhaci → Nurgaci – According to official record, the Manchu spelling should be Nurgaci rather than Nurhaci. See the highlighted wordon this pic: http://image16-c.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20140902/19/17503561320140902194738017.jpg. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 16:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC) Hasuran (talk) 11:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose: Wikipedia's naming policy states that "article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources" (in this case, English-language scholarly monographs and articles on Qing history), not in primary sources like the Manju i yargiyan kooli (Manchu Veritable Records; Manzhou shilu 滿洲實錄 in Chinese), which was published from 1779 to 1781 on the basis of early Manchu chronicles that were themselves compiled in the 1630s. That document does show the spelling Nurgaci, but the Chinese translation below – which does not include the passage on Nurhaci – calls Nurhaci's brothers Yaerhaqi 雅爾哈齊 (= Yarhaci, not Yargaci) and Shuerhaqi 舒爾哈齊 (= Šurhaci, not Šurgaci). In any case, this point is moot until we are shown evidence that "Nurgaci" is more common than "Nurhaci" in English-language reliable sources. Madalibi (talk) 02:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The evidence being discussed above is largely irrelevant.  Wikipedia uses the common name found in English-language sources and "Nurgaci" ain't it (see here for example).  —  AjaxSmack   03:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAMES Bobby Martnen (talk) 00:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose per reasons above ch (talk) 01:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.