Talk:Nursing/Archive 1

Old discussions
"Nursing diagnoses are unique, bearing little resemblance to medical diagnoses." I'm not sure what the author of this sentence had in mind. Perhaps some examples, or a more in-depth explanation of how nursing and medical diagnoses differ would help the article. Any clarification would be appreciated. --cprompt 00:01, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A medical diagnosis tells us what major condition the patient has. Nursing diagnosis break the Medical Diagnosis down into the actual problems the patient will have because of the medical malady, and that leads the nurse to develope nursing interventions. An example: a patient is diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure. A nursing diagnosis would be, "Alteration in Fluid Balance" and an intervention would be to monitor the patient's wieght and lung sounds for signs of fluid retention. Poor lung sounds would tell the nurse that another complication of CHF may be starting-Pulmonary Edema-which necessitates another nursing diagnosis, "Alteration in Respiratory Status" and another list of interventions to moniter or treat that problem. Tina Broderick, 12:19 pm, 25 Feb 2005

List of nursing specialties
I have separated out branches of nursing as I feel that they are improtant enough to be shown separately. It is a very comprehensive list. It may be a bit too long. It would be better if it could be further sub-divided.

I have pasted a section from the nurse article on history of nursing. It needs expansion. There is a debate on the Talk:nurse as to what should be in this article and what should be in the nurse article. --Vincej 14:07, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

UK
Midwifery IS NOT a branch of nursing! It is a profession in its own right.

I will edit it.

editors who are nurses...
...can identify themselves voluntarily by putting   on their user pages. Not that we have to do that kind of thing just because the doctors do... :) &#8592;Hob 21:46, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

definition
The nursing profession is a separate profession to the medical profession. Although many nurses carry out medical procedures, a number do not, so it is misleading to describe nursing a medical discipline. --Vincej 15:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Panthro 00:56, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

you can also contact some-one in kneed


 * Absolutely, could we add a comment about holism there? ... or would that enrage our medical counterparts? :) Oliver Keenan 16:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC) (No longer an active nurse)

Nursing as a profession
Why is that it is accepted that to be a professional, a pre-requisite is that you have, as a minimum, a bachelor's degree BEFORE embarking on your professional training. For example, I required PASSES in 3 A-levels at B grade before I was allowed to embark on my degree in accountancy. Upon completion of my degree, I faced a further 3 years of intensive study, whilst also working a full week. Only on successful completion of this was I entitled to call myself a professional accountant.

Compare and contrast with a nurse's course:

1. Pass 5 O-levels. 2. Study (not necessarily pass) 2 A-levels. 3. Undertake a 2 year training course, which doesn't quite equate to an HND. 4. Call yourself a professional.

I don't think so. You may carry out your job in a professional manner (as most people do) BUT, I'm sorry to say, nursing is NOT a profession and never will be. At best it can be classified as a skilled manual job. ---preceding unsigned comment by 81.132.90.57 (talk &bull; contribs) on |19:27, 23 April 2006

According to criteria, a profession:


 * draws on a well-defined body of intellectual knowledge.
 * uses the scientific methods to enlarge that body of knowledge, improving education and service.
 * educates its practitioners in institutions of higher learning.
 * functions autonomously in control of professional policy and activity and functions within a code of ethics.
 * is composed of individuals who consider this occupation as their lifework, contributing to the good of society through service to others.
 * requires continuous professional development

Nurses fulfil all of these criteria. Panthro 23:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

And the National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes, from the UK government disagrees with you. They class nurses in class three, lower professional and higher technical. Panthro 00:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

May I add, controversially, in regards to the fifth point of the professional criteria above, I believe most people would regard nursing as a far more valuable profession than accountancy as accountancy seems to primarily serve the interests of people seeking to avoid paying tax! There is more to knowledge and professionalism than a degree education and I say that as a graduate nurse myself. --Vincej 08:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Nursing is a profession.

There are four domains in which registered nurses (RN) work. These include: Practice, Education, Research and Administration. In Canada, the Canadian Nurses Association (CNA) set out the standard in 1980 that RN's are to be degree for entry to practice by the year 2000. The majority of Canadian RN's are now educated to this minimum standard. RN's in Canada and around the world work in a very broad range of roles. There are Master's prepared and PhD prepared RN's worldwide. RN's create knowledge, set policy, drive government decisions, foster healthy communities, manage many areas of hospitals, educate future nurses, as well as continue to provide expert patient care saving lives through their knowledge, judgement and action in rapidly changing situations.

In response to the accountant, RN's simply are professionals. There really just isn't a debate anymore on this topic. It appears that your limited worldview in relation to nursing has caused you to neglect looking at the bigger picture of what RN's do and how they are educated. The standards you speak of for RN's are unfamiliar to me. As nursing is an evolving profession, standards differ from country to country. This does not negate the fact that nursing is indeed a profession. Are the standards for professional accounting exactly the same in every country? Does every university require the exact same set of courses and credits for a degree? If you were to work in a country other than where you were trained would you have to meet a different set of criteria as an accountant?

The paradigm has shifted, some people embrace it, some resist it. Either way, RN's worldwide are not losing sleep over one accountant that can't accept it, they are too busy advancing their profession through their broad spectrum of roles as professional RN's.

Canadian RN Wikapedian

Suggestion
The section on nursing practice needs development and actually exists as a stub - maybe we need to cull what is here and transfer to there? User:Ianguy 26 April 2006

I do not fully agree with this suggestion. Having reviewed the articles I still do not think we have fully resolved what should be in article nurse versus article nursing and the result seems a bit messy. However, I think that a section on nursing practice should exist within the main article on nursing and instead we should delete the stub on nursing practice. --Vincej 09:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Parts of the register
Any suggestions for condensing the section of the article that covers all 15 parts of the old register (in the UK). It seems to dominate the article. Or perhaps it should just be deleted? What do people think? --Vincej 09:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I have now noticed that the list already appears in the nurse article here, so unless there are any objections I am going to delete it from this page and put in a link instead --Vince 14:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and Mr/Miss anon who thinks nursing isn't a profession and bean counting is - grow up or use your skills to actually research what you are talking about; no country in the world has a two year programme; most have degree programmes, that require the same acadameic rigour as any accountancy degree. Likewise, we have to register with a professional body that require us to demonstrate safe and competent clinical practice (did the folks from Emron, or the many other fraudsters do this?). When did an accountant last have to make an on the spot decision that could affect the chances of survival of an individual (if ever) Ianguy 05:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not quite sure what this is referring to, but the UK does have 2 year courses for nurses --John24601 09:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Clarification
Could you provide a link to an institution that provides a two year pre-registration programme? The only two year ptogrammes are available for people who are nurse cadets OR S/NVQ Level 3 holders.

The minimum course of nurse training, except the two instances mentioned aboved must NOT be less than three years/4,600 hours nor longer than seven years to completion.

Reference: The Nursing and Midwifery Council. (2004) Standards for proficiency for pre-registration nurse education. London: The Nursing and Midwifery Council.

Panthro 19:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * "Graduate Diploma in Nursing: This route is available in all branches and is a two-year fast-track qualification that is available to those who hold a (minimum) second class honours degree in a relevant subject, eg biology, sociology, psychology, social science." - from http://www.nmas.ac.uk/instit/B50.html. There are loads of other unis which do this too --John24601 21:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a graduate diploma! The above poster insinuated that a nurse can qualify after only 2 years, which is wrong in the extreme! Three years is the MINIMUM, with a graduate entry nurse on the course you pointed out having to study for at least 5 years to register... So you have proven the point. There is no two year programme for pre-reg nursing in the UK..... :) Panthro 22:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Errrrm - the training they do before going into nursing has not really got a great deal to do with it. You can do just about any degree. Alot of people who are social workers have a degree in social work, for instance, then much much later on in their careers they decide to enter nursing, via a 2 year route. That's not 5 years of nursing training.... --John24601 22:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"You can do just about any degree" I thought it was biology, psychology etc etc

Who said it was 5 years of nurse training? I said it is five years of study... i.e. three years to get their original degree, and then the two year graduate entry. Also, having a degree is only part of it - all the uni websites I have looked at state that experience in a care environement whether paid or voluntary would make the application more favourable.

The fact of the matter is, that someone cannot enter a two year nurse training course without having a degree, a S/NVQ or be a nurse cadet. This was the inference from the poster ^^^ arguing that nursing is not a profession who said:

Compare and contrast with a nurse's course:


 * 1. Pass 5 O-levels.
 * 2. Study (not necessarily pass) 2 A-levels.
 * 3. Undertake a 2 year training course, which doesn't quite equate to an HND.
 * 4. Call yourself a professional.

Therefore, these remarks are wrong as this does not happen! This is the point!

Panthro 01:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC) - From anonymous poster "Why is that it is accepted that to be a professional, a pre-requisite is that you have, as a minimum, a bachelor's degree BEFORE embarking on your professional training. 

So medical doctors upon qualification aren't professionals??? They must sit their specialist exams to become a professional? Afterall, they only come out with a Bachelor in Medicine and Surgery!! Get off your high horse!!

Panthro 19:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC) =Merge=
 * See also the parallel discussion at Talk:Nurse

I have added a merge request - it is simply silly having both, especially as this page is replicating the other - perhaps the section on 'countries' need to be individual pages, and these can each be part of a new category Ianguy 05:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I already created Nursing (United Kingdom), maybe each country should do the same? --John24601 09:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Support, if done properly! Panthro 01:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Nurse is a profession while nursing is an academic subject; separate concepts, separate articles. Nurses practice nursing, physicians practice medicine. Wikipedia has one article entitled "physician" and another entitled "medicine". The shouldn't be merged and nor should nurse and nursing. Wadsa 22:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Agree with Wadsa. The articles are not supposed to be the same. 13756 11:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Support I think the pages have now developed in a way that makes this sensible. Although medical doctors and medicine have separate pages, a number of other professions do not split their pages in this way. The general reader is likely to think of nurses and nursing as inextricably linked (perhaps less so for medicine and physicians?). I think there is sufficient overlap and it would put an end to the argument of which information should go in which. Agree also to having nursing by country separated --Vince 13:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose Each deserves to be a separate article as they are separate topics, though they are related. -- Will Mak  050389  04:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Support merge. Though I understand the arguments against merging, I believe those arguments are flawed. Having two articles is not necessary, as the practice and the profession of nursing can be described adequately in the same article. I fail to see the gain in having two different articles. Wikipedia should merely outline what nursing is, and what a nurse is – without writing duplicate articles, and without going into unnecessary detail. This, afterall, is an encyclopedia that caters to the general public. Lets not confuse people. The medicine/physician comparison does not really correspond to nursing vs nurse. Medicine is a discipline that does not only apply to physicians, whereas the discipline of nursing only applies to nurses. Oh, and before you ask, yes, I am an RN. --Ezeu 05:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose "Nursing" covers universal topics while the "Nurse" article contains information regarding education and legal regulation, which varies by country. I can see a general article on Nurse and separate articles on the education and regulation in each country.  However, when there is not even a good SECTION on the history of nursing, I think effort could be better spent in increasing the quantity and quality of information.  We've already been through this once and it was decided to break the articles into "Nurse" and "Nursing".  Unfortunately, most of my time here is spent keeping things in proper categories and adding nursing-related categories to articles on people and schools that don't have them. I do hope that a consensus can be reached rather than a mere majority vote.  Question for Ezeu:  To whom, other than physicians, does the discipline of medicine apply? THB 23:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)