Talk:Nursing/Archive 2

==High demand in US== The section about nurses being in high demand in the US needs to be either expanded with a discussion of causes and such, or quite simply removed. As it stands right now, it doesn't add anything to the article, other than a feeling that the US is the only relevant country in the world. (However, I am generally opposed to adding these little nationalised sections to articles, so I'd rather see it removed). 94.191.162.213 (talk) 06:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I suspect that nursing need is "high" in all countries, just for different reasons. In wealthy countries, it's because we don't produce enough nurses to provide care for an aging population.  In some less-wealthy countries that train enough nurses, there's a shortage because nurses move to wealthier countries for better pay and better working conditions.  The world, taken as a whole, does not have enough nurses to provide top-quality care to every seriously sick person.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, most countries have an issue with fewer nurses than necessary to care for the present patient population (most serious in the acute care setting). As for countries outside the US, I would like to see our international colleagues help by posting relevant empirical evidence about their particular nursing demand / shortage issue.  For some reason I see many comments from international contributors throughout Wikipedia about postings specific to the US but this is a contribution community where international friends need to make additions to reflect their knowledge.  Also, obtaining studies from Italy or Germany is not easy from the US side as many are not in English. Last, I think the section should be renamed to nursing shortage. P.A.P. (talk) 07:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There is a lot of talk about "demand" that is not rigorously vetted. My recent experience with new nursing graduates in the US is that they are much less likely to get full time benefited jobs than they expected, precisely because there is simultaneous acceptance of the "nursing shortage" idea, and a strong reluctance on the part of hiring managers to consider new graduates for positions. At the very least there is controversy about the reasons, and adherence to NPOV should suggest that airing of multiple possible reasons for said shortage be given airtime.UseTheCommandLine (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to add to my own comments, I recently found the following articles that call into question the reasons for the nursing shortage, which directly contradict the reasons offered in the page (yes, one is commentary, but it is still well-referenced, apologies for the paywalled link). -- upshot of this line of argument being that the lack of nurse residency programs inflates the visible extent of the nursing shortage, because new nurses do not have access to a pathway to being hired as a "full" nurse.UseTheCommandLine (talk) 21:12, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, to support the idea that the reasons for the shortage are complex, please see section 3.2.2 of this HRSA report on nursing education, which supports the creation of residency programs, notes that they are under-funded, and makes mention of the turnover in new nursing school graduates.UseTheCommandLine (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Knights Templar
I am removing the links to Knights Templar. I think it is both inaccurate and controversial to include this as part of the history of nursing. Nursing does not appear in either article. If someone can convince me otherwise then please do so here. --Vince (talk) 10:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nursing portal
I have created a nursing portal in progress at Portal:Nursing. The first step should be to get the primary articles in good condition: mainly "Nursing" and "Nurse". -THB 02:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Old discussions archived
Discussion prior to September 2006 has been archived and may be accessed through the box at the top of the page. -THB 01:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

General direction of nursing pages
If we are to pursue the strategy of a number of articles which are linked to the main article on nursing then we need to start expanding the smaller articles. I am still inclined toward the idea of merging them. This may be stating the obvious but what we need is an easy way for someone who doesn't know much about nursing to easily find out what it is about. I am not sure if at the moment we have achieved this. --Vince 11:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nursing_practice"

There has been some really good work recently but I have added the comment here to invite any further discussion on the general direction that the development of the nursing pages should take.


 * Vince, I have mixed feelings about how all the articles mesh together. Before, I thought that "Nursing" is universal and "Nurse" deals with education and legal aspects which are on a country-by-country basis and they should be separate articles, but now there are separate articles for "Nursing in xxxx country" dealing with the educ. and legal aspects, which is sort of contradictory. The topic does seem to be getting splintered.


 * You're right, there should be one main article when people look for information about the profession. Because there are separate articles for each country, perhaps "Nurse" and "Nursing" should now be combined again with a redirect.


 * Also, I think that some topics should be developed more fully in separate articles, as were education and legal issues by country. I don't have strong feelings about including other particular topics in the primary article or separate articles, except that the main article should remain of manageable size and I would lean towards more smaller than fewer larger if it had to go too far in one direction or the other (which it doesn't have to). Most people looking for information about nursing probably don't want to know about all the categories of nurses in the UK or every certification available in the US, and if they do, the information is available.


 * I'll think about all of this some more and would be interested to hear more detail about how you and others think things should develop. It is important to have an overall structure.  Feel free to cut and move all of this conversation to the  nursing portal/project discussion page or wherever you think the most people will see it. -THB 21:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I edit 1 link on the Nursing Portal page (NCLEX-RN Guide) - editied for formatting. I also added a link to the National Council of State Boards of Nursing (NCSBN). 69.133.80.139 15:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal of material to nurse article
I am aware that this is a drastic removal of material from the UK section of this article. However, as I understand it, material on education/regulation needs to be in the nurse article. No content has been lost. I think we need to think of some new material to go here.

I am still of the opinion that there are just too many articles related to nursing and it would be easier to have fewer articles containing more material. However, this edit I believe is consistent with the current consensus. --Vince 18:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Nursing" is actually a huge and important classification. I discern from the comments that it is being approached like the elephant in the fable, with every narrow specialist homing in on their angle: education, employment opportunities, regulation, 'stereotyping' etc. Might I suggest that simply a strong outline be developed and all the categories fitted in according to their context? A logical way to approach a subject of this type is Chronologically, since Nursing is a field that has expanded greatly and rapidly over the 20th century (in part die to wars and scientific advances supporting population growth); ergo, the earlier history is less complex and should be covered at the outset. Once we reach the 19th century and the rise of modern Nursing in Europe (in the context of the evolution of modern hospital care), it becomes possible to incorporate the greater volume of information relevant to our own age. A robust bibliography will be of value to the serious scholar, pointing them in the right direction for further details. I can make time for this project in about 12 months (late 2012), as it is an important subject. In the meantime, any takers out there, jump in! Maria Ashot (talk) 20:44, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

comparing
Are Nurses professionals with an equal status as other professionals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.155.108 (talk) 16:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

views?
what are the views of public about nursing as a professional? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.155.108 (talk) 16:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

$$Insert formula here$$

Article Introduction
From reading the introduction, I was not able to tell whether this would be an article about nursing or medicine; or in fact health care in general. Perhaps instead of trying to be too politically correct in the definition, it could attempt to highlight the differences between these things? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.80.123.34 (talk) 07:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The art of nursing far exceeds "assistance." The word isn't adequate, so we in a doctoral nursing seminar decided to try to do better. Gcampbel (talk) 20:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Chapter II                                         REVIEW OF RELATED LITERATURE

In order to gather relevant information in the present work, the researchers conducted an in-depth survey of related literature from other readings and other different sources intended to provide the various principles that have guided and motivated the researchers in constructing the study. 1. Foreign literature 2. Foreign studies 3. Local literature 4. Local studies

FOREIGN LITERATURE According to Laurence Steinberg, author of the book “You and your Adolescent”, peer pressure is not a monolithic force that presses adolescents into the same mold. Adolescents generally choose friend whose values, attitudes, tastes, and families are similar to their own. In short, good kids rarely go bad because of their friends. So the point here all boils down to another quote: “Birds of the same feather flock together.” But this does not apply in all instances. Author Mary Kay Blakely shares that most literature on the culture of adolescence focuses on peer pressure as a negative force. Warnings about the “wrong crowd” read like tornado alerts in parent manuals. . . . It is a relative term that means different things in different places. In Fort Wayne, for example, the wrong crowd meant hanging out with liberal Democrats. In Connecticut, it meant kids who weren’t planning to get a Ph.D. from Yale. It means, peer pressure is perceived differently by individuals depending on where they live and what they are accustomed to. Sometimes, you give in and sometimes you don’t. Peer pressure differs in each individual’s personal perception. Example, in public schools in america, teens are forced by peers to engage in pre-marital sex because according to them, it is a shame to enter college being a virgin, especially boys. In the Philippines, however, when one has lost his/her virginity before entering college would be an embarassment to the person and perhaps the reason for the people’s lost of respect. Anyhow, the conditions stated above are still subject to change. “How you handle peer pressure -- the pressure your children feel as well as the pressure you feel -- in the early years will play a significant role in how your children handle peer pressure when they become adolescents,” claims Adolescence Isn't Terminal author, Kevin Leman. It does indeed pay off. It is like the answer to the biblical verse, “Train up a child in a way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it (Proverbs 22:6).” Antoine DeSaint Exupery also expressed support in these facts in his bestselling book, The Little Prince. It goes like this, “You become responsible, forever, for what you have been tamed.” These are all true. The upbringing of a child helps him become a responsible adoldescent with the ability to disuade himself from the surrounding and powerful urge of peer pressure. Eugene Arnold says that the stress of resisting unhealthy peer pressure can be buffered by good family relationships and a high self-esteem, and it is often those adolescents with neither who succomb to unhealthy pressure from their peers. A balance between peer and family relationship is essential to maintain a healthy young lifestyle,because either of the two has a strong effect on the individual himself. However, Bill Treasurer cited one positive outlook regarding peer pressure. In his book, Right Risk, he stated, “Peer pressure has many redeeming qualities. It is the pressure of our peers, after all, that gives us the support to try things we otherwise wouldn't have.” We should also think about that. Experiences do teach us to grow into a mature person because we learn from our mistakes.

FOREIGN STUDIES Studies of peer influence have found it to be an important factor in a variety of adolescent outcomes, including educational performance and aspirations (Coleman, 1961; Duncan, Hailer, & Portes, 1968; Hallinan & Williams, 1990); sexual attitudes and behavior (Mirande, 1968; Shah & Zelnick, 1981); delinquency (Aseltine, 1995; Warr & Stafford, 1991); and tobacco, drug, and alcohol use (Kandel & Andrews, 1987; Stacy, Sussman, Dent, Burton, & Flay, 1992). Many researchers have noted that what is less well known is the mechanism behind peer conformity (e.g., Brown, 1989; Hallinan & Williams, 1990; Kandel & Andrews, 1987; Warr & Stafford, 1991). To date, peer influence has been examined largely through the lens of reference group theory and its corresponding socialization component. According to this theory, the individual orients himself or herself, normatively and/or comparatively, to various reference groups. A normative group provides the individual with behavioral norms, attitudes, and values, whereas a comparative group provides benchmarks against which the individual compares himself or herself, affecting self-concept and/or behavior. In either case, the individual experiences some degree of socialization (i.e., conformity to the group), although explanations of peer influence seem to rely primarily on normative dynamics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffreycheang27 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Assessment
What is needed to improve this article for a better rating? Enfermero (talk) 07:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The next step on the quality scale is a Good article. Have a look at the criteria.  It's worth keeping in mind that some reviewers have forgotten the "good enough" nature of GA assessments, and expect the articles to be much closer to "baby featured articles", so err on the side of perfection.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I am learning often by watching and reviewing. Enfermero (talk) 20:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Nightingale Pledge
I was planning to add the Nightingale pledge, and a nursing resource site on the External links.

The "Nightingale Pledge"

The Nightingale Pledge was composed by Lystra Gretter, an instructor of nursing at the old Harper Hospital in Detroit, Michigan, and was first used by its graduating class in the spring of 1893. It is an adaptation of the Hippocratic Oath taken by physicians.

I solemnly pledge myself before God and in the presence of this assembly, to pass my life in purity and to practice my profession faithfully. I will abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, and will not take or knowingly administer any harmful drug. I will do all in my power to maintain and elevate the standard of my profession, and will hold in confidence all personal matters committed to my keeping and all family affairs coming to my knowledge in the practice of my calling. With loyalty will I endeavor to aid the physician, in his work, and devote myself to the welfare of those committed to my care.

Ursa Gamma (talk) 09:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Uncertain meaning
"the definition of the term and the practice of nursing has being known as a wet nurse and the latter being known as a dry nurse"

This sentence seems to be missing some words. What is the intended meaning? I assume it has something to do with clarifying that a 'wet nurse' was not a medical professional, but I'm not sure exactly. Vultur (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I think the new article Nursing practice should be merged with the section in here already dedicated to nursing practice. The section already exists here, and there doesn't seem to be a need for a separate article. Merging the added information on the new article also won't make this article too long. Inks.LWC (talk) 01:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge - Cannot be merged because the article itself can be expanded further later on. It is in line with articles such as nurse education, nursing theory, nursing process, and the like. - AnakngAraw (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Support - substantive content is duplicative. Article was PROD deleted previously for same concern. jsfouche &#9789;&#9790; Talk 11:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Being expanded further to make topic more unique in content. - AnakngAraw (talk) 02:42, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion
Merging Nurse and Nursing practice into Nursing.

These 3 articles are VERY duplicative and only add to the confusion about our profession. It is impossible to discuss Nurse without mentioning the profession of Nursing. It is not logical to have a separate article about the person who works in a profession that has an article. Likewise, Nursing practice IS Nursing. Once the merge is complete, the other 2 are valid redirects. jsfouche &#9789;&#9790; Talk 20:33, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This could probably just be a continuance of the previous merge discussion, since consensus was never really reached there. Inks.LWC (talk) 01:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge proposal - Nurse stereotypes
I would like to propose that Nurse stereotypes be merged into this article. Nurse stereotypes is unlikely to ever grow into a full-fledged article as it is barely notable as its own subject. Kaldari (talk) 00:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose The Nursing article is already too large at 75K - see WP:SIZE. There's plenty to be said about the stereotypes and no shortage of sources so there's not the slightest reason to suppose that that article cannot grow further. Warden (talk) 00:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:SIZE and it is not a good fit into the article about the profession since it is more of a pop-culture topic. jsfouche &#9789;&#9790; Talk 01:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure I think the size of the nursing article is the problem, per Warden. However, the article in its current state lacks in material. While there is an opportunity to expand it, it doesn't seem to be moving towards that (and I appreciate your efforts Warden!). The list is the most troublesome part, and it appears to be short enough to be condensed into a very short paragraph (per WP:Trivia) and a mention of the positive stereotype of an angel, it could easily be merged. Unless someone intends on expanding it at this point, I'm fine with seeing it merged, or even an article created for "stereotypes about professions" (or something more appropriate, Profession stereotypes). Oh, how come there isn't an article on police stereotypes? :) SarahStierch (talk) 04:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Or there is the opportunity to create an article called Nursing in popular culture (or Nurses in popular culture). There is so much that can be documented and cited about that subject. From Nurse Jackie to how nurses are generally believed to be women, and popular costumes at Halloween! SarahStierch (talk) 04:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose A merge would be the same as deletion in this case. It survived its AFD as keep, so lets keep it.   D r e a m Focus  04:39, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Please Include Licensed Practical Nursing under the Nursing Article
I noted that while reading the general "Nursing" article, that there was mention of the Masters, Bachelors, Associate, Diploma certification of nursing, but, no mention of Licensed Practical Nurses. Of course, I state this because I am currently an LPN, but, also, to acknowledge the fact that, we, too contribute to the nursing profession. In fact, with the continual demand of nurses continuing their education, there are less licensed nurses "in the field", so, that leaves us to give much of the direct care and teaching. I am sure this would bring a smile to the face of the many nameless and faceless LPNs in the United States that are not being recognized for the work that we do.

Pagandeva2000 (talk) 20:46, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Nursing Blue Lamp.jpg Nominated for Deletion
I made the image in the shape of a blue oil lamp using the lettering from the word "Nursing". A blue oil lamp is the symbol for professional nursing but I wanted to try and make this very obvious by making the picture out of the word. You can view the original here but it has been deleted from wikmedia commons. I understand that nurses would prefer a logo beside that one and I am all too happy to work in a profession that chooses to labour under the banner of the litttle yellow tea-pot Tradimus (talk) 12:12, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Participant List
Wiki project Medicine has a participant list featuring many nurses. I wonder whether a similar list of nursing editors would tempt some toward more ownership of nursing topics. asked by Tradimus - a Nursing Lecturer from Western Australia. Tradimus (talk) 08:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protection
I've semi-protected the article for a week due to the edit warring between several different new and IP editors. Please discuss the issue(s) here instead of edit warring on the article. Since the dispute seemed to primarily be between different IP addresses, I felt that full protection wasn't needed at the moment. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:35, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

How this article could be updated
It was on the Radio Four programme Today this morning, and discussed later on Radio Four on December 4, that the Chief Nursing Officer was arguing that nurses weren't doing their job properly - but there were arguments later on on Radio Four, on programmes such as You and Yours or The World at One, that nurses had been treated too harshly, anad their were comments from some one who criticised what the correspondent referred to as "nurse-bashing". If any one knows about this issue, discussion of this issue in the article could be added by that person to update the article. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Jane Cummings is the Chief Nursing Officer for England and she was on Today] on [[Radio Four on the morning of 4 December 2012 claiming that nurses should be rated on compassion - you can find information about what she said on:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20583115 ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Relevant to this subject is how Jane Cummings argued that nurses need compassion rather than a degree, as argued in this blog from the Telegraph:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100192610/nurses-need-compassion-not-a-degree/

If any one feels confident enough, s/he could contribute to this debate here in this article and pertinent comments to update the article. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Profession vs Professional
There are pages for teacher, lawyer, accountant, etc, but there is no page for nurse - it has been merged into nursing. Besides the merits for the merfer (I have not looked at the discussion), where does this leave us in terms of consistency? Especially with the creation and now gradual inclusion of the occupation infobox, does such an inclusion not make it look odd on a page called nursing instead of nurse?