Talk:Nuxalk Nation

Division of government article from ethno/history/culture
As per other First Nations content, there should be a separation, howevermuch artificial it may seem on the surface, between government articles and ethno-national articles; the former refers to the Indian Act governmental system and its apparati and programs; the latter to history, culture, ethnography; this is not always clear in the way First Nations refer to themselves, and to their governments; "First Nation" and "Nation" can mean the "tribal" historical identity as well as the Indian Act-derived band governments/tribal councils; so at some point here Nuxálk and Nuxálk Nation should/could/might be two different articles....Skookum1 04:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Here here! OldManRivers 09:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Prepping to do that, i.e. start the ethno stub, but wanted to drop these notes here as found on the nuxalk.org website:
 * ''Today the four major villages that make up the Nuxalk Nation come from South Bentick - Taliyumc, Kimsquit - Sutslmc, Kwatna - Kwalhnmc and the villages in the vicinity of what is known as Bella Coola today - Q'umquots The old people remember when there were over ten thousand Nuxalkmc in this valley alone. Today are population numbers 1500 - 2000.
 * NB the village names, or some of them (Taliyumc, Stslmc and Kwalhnmc) appear to local "people names" from what little I know of Salishan languages in general; as in the case of the Secwepemc bands it may the people and the placename are synonymous, i.e. the village name is the same as that of the people, while the location is separate - Taliyumc from Tallheo, as it's spelled "in English", Kwalhnmc from Kwatna). The population figures are typical of lore I've seen for most peoples; similar in the Lillooet Country and Thompson-Fraser Canyon....and much of the Fraser Valley, in fact....not sre about Skwxwu7mesh pre-Contact populations (??...)Skookum1 00:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Diacriticals in FN catnames
Please see this on the CFD talklpage.Skookum1 (talk) 16:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Origin of term Bella Coola

 * The name Bella Coola, often used in academic writing, is not preferred by the Nuxálk; it is thought to be either a derivation of the neighbouring coastal Heiltsuk people's name for the Nuxálk plxwlaq's, meaning "stranger", or that it comes from the Spanish or Italian bella cula, "beautiful curve" or "beautiful bend", referring to the winding inlet that leads into the valley.

There is some curious stuff in BCGNIS about this.


 * The entry for says: "Spanish for "Beautiful valley, but how did it get the name? Probably came from Indian expression "bella coola wind" referring to the cold wind from that direction in winter. (23 March 1932 letter from Rev. R.B. Beavis, Wisetown, Saskatchewan to Rev. J. Goodfellow; Beavis was in charge at Bella Bella for about 10 years after its founding by Rev.W.H. Pierce.) Source: Provincial Archives of BC "Place Names File" compiled 1945-1950 by A.G. Harvey from various sources, with subsequent additions."

That is a rather old source. I find it hard to believe the Spanish explored that far into the inlets in this area anyway. Plus, is this saying the name is Spanish or Indian in origin??


 * The entry for says: "Indian name meaning "beautiful valley". Note however that anthropologist Wilson Duff advised November 1964 that this may not be correct. After an Indian tribe, the name given them by the Kwakiutl. Source: Provincial Archives of BC "Place Names File" compiled 1945-1950 by A.G. Harvey from various sources, with subsequent additions."


 * The entry for simply says: "The head of the north arm had been known as "bel-kula". Source: BC place name cards, or correspondence to/from BC's Chief Geographer or BC Geographical Names Office"

The Spanish theory seems unlikely to me. Which Spanish explorer would have been in the area thoroughly investigating deep inlets? The only one I can think of is Jacinto Caamaño, but I didn't think he explored this particular area, and Vancouver typically kept the placenames given by Caamaño. Pfly (talk) 08:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, here's http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cula and http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culo. The older theories were from a time when ethnographic detail wasn't widely known or understood, certainly not by the government.  Note thte use of "Kwakiutl" to refer to the Heiltsuk, i.e. the "Northern Kwakiutl" as they were once known (with the Haisla and Owikeno/Wuikunxv).  The Heiltsuk origin is commonly accepted now and is, SFAIK, the correct one, although there are other translations than "strangers" and also other orthographies for it.  If you want to ask User:Billposer he'd be teh authority on this; isn't it on http://www.nuxalk.org?Skookum1 (talk) 12:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I meant to add that a discusson of the mis-attribution should be included, i.e. "older sources mistakenly attributed the name, and that of the Bella Bella, to Spanish origin but it is now known that this was not the case". Taht's a bit POV in tone, it could be put better, but shoudl be said to keep re-insertions of the claim from being made again.Skookum1 (talk) 13:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Currently the article provides the pronunciation of Nuxalk with two examples, like this: Nuxalk: Nuxálk;, with the 'x' like German ach. The first, Nuxálk, is in the Nuxálk language orthography I assume. The second uses an IPA template and, I'd assume, IPA orthography. The IPA page linked to, IPA, says that the diacritic mark on /á/ indicates a "high level tone". Can this be right? I didn't think Nuxálk was a tonal language. Shouldn't the IPA be something more like /nuxalk/, or /nuˈxalk/ to show the syllables and stress (second syllable is stressed, no?). This page gives the pronunciation as "noo-HUK", but I'm guessing that is inaccurate or an Anglicized distortion. Pfly (talk) 06:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the diacritics are out of place in IPA, and equally out of place within Nuxalk orthography, which uses no diacritics. 207.81.184.52 (talk) 17:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Controversial paragraph
I found the following paragraph on the page. I will attempt to clean it up, but I include it here for discussion purposes. The bit about it not being appropriate for Wikipedia was already there, and in fact what brought the paragraph to my attention.


 * Before European contact, the Nuxalk population was approximately 35,000 (based on oral histories and academic research). After the small pox epidemic of 1862-64 (following waves of new gold seekers and settlers), Nuxalk villages were devastated to approximately 300 survivors. Nuxalk people were scattered throughout the territory and either relocated on their own to survive, or were forcibly removed by the Department of Indian Affairs, to form a settlement in what is now known as Bella Coola. Knowledge of family ancestry remains strong in Nuxalk families, including villages of descent, family crests, as well as songs and dances that tell the histories of our people in our smayustas. Religion includes a belief in a Father God, His Son, and a Spirit Deity. In the Nuxalk tribe the creator's name is Axquatum;  Manakays is his son;  Smunways is the spirit deity;  Nuxalk people have always acknowledged God and his Son in the Nuxalk culture.  The worship of Axquatum's Son, Manakays, is a very important part of Nuxalk culture, and the name 'Manakays', in Nuxalk language means "His son, our saviour";  many Nuxalk have embraced the Christian religion because of strong similarities between this Trinity of Father, Son and Spirit in the Nuxalk Religion and the Christian faith; regarding the Biblical scripture in Acts 17, which clearly talks about the unknown god. The Nuxalk Nation continues to be a close-knit tribe that functions around native traditional beliefs, and have never been known to worship totem poles or the sun.  The Nuxalk Bella Coola Tribe has a view of God that runs congruent with the description given in the Christian Religion.  Nuxalk people, along with many other Northwestern Native Amerindians of the Americas stand a very strong chance of harboring the genetic connection with Hebrew people groups that are now known to have come over to the Americas in ancient times(***This has no place in a Wikipedia article, it is pure speculation and has no basis in historical fact.) :  people groups in both the ancient near east, specifically the Gallillee region, share the genetic marker, Haplogroup X, with Native Americans in the Northeastern United States and adjoining Canada region;  Haplogroup X was only recently discovered by geneticists in the late 1990's.  Prior to this discovery, all Amerindians of North America were thought to be descendents of Asians who had crossed the Bering Straight, coming from Asia into the Americas.  With the discovery of Haplogroup X, this ancestry is now also known to have near-eastern origins.  This genetic marker also appears in tribes situated in Peru, as well as tribes located all across the central and eastern United States.  Scientists still search to discover when these genes were shared among these two distant cultures - the ancient near east and the Amerindians of the western half of the Americas and parts of western South America.  Many of these tribes have religious traditions of a 'sun-man' who dwelt among them as a ruler and mediator between heaven and earth, or a Father-Son-Spirit deity.  It is yet to be determined if these beliefs have a shared Hebraic origin or were a separate development.

Perhaps if someone can site sources about the Nuxalk religion, this could be come a very interesting article. The souces cited are talking about a completely different tribe, and have no references to the Nuxalk religion. Listmeister (talk) 17:09, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually when you look at those pages, as I recall from looking at this before, they refer to thisarticle as their source....a reflexive cite, not COPYVIO but verbatim....and supposedly free licensed wiki content; but wiki-clones can't be used to cite wikipedia.....hmmmmmmmSkookum1 (talk) 17:10, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Style Guide -- first person
These sentences should be rewritten in 3rd person style (not first person) unless they are intended to be quotes from an external source, in which case they should be turned into a quotation: "We are salmon people of the rainforest and without healthy and abundant lands and water, our very existence is seriously threatened. We, the Nuxalk, maintain our rights and title to our entire traditional territory and continue to strive to maintain our traditional systems of governance and powers, citing a long and rich cultural history as evidence of our continued use and occupation."  DRead (talk) 18:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Nuxalk art site ref
RE this I'm of the opinion that for small communities/groups it's a given that the people of the group themselves are citable; same as with using band pages for history sources, despite teh "no primary sources" dictum.....who else is there? This isn't a blatant commercial site, I'm not sure of the policy on such artist-pages...it's not only the site-owner's art either, it's that of others. This isn't an exploitation site, but one of the very few Nuxalk in the world presenting his art. Much the same as OldManRivers and his Skwxw7mesh art, not sure if he ever did link his own artpage; but he is a notable Skwxw7mesh artist, and active in the revival of Coast Salish art. Anyway User:Ohnoitsjamie is from far away, and an admitted deletionist (see his userpage) and like many, not familiar with the cultural realities of FNs and North Am peoples. Maybe that citation would more belong on Nuxalk art, if such an article were written, but to me seemed like a perfectly legitimate external link, not spam, because there are so few pages on Nuxalk out there at all it's natural that cites/links about them are "all there is", unless only third-party publications necessarily published far away are used, and "global" standards are applied to winnowing local-context links into oblivion. Cultural biases are the issue here to me, also.Skookum1 (talk) 05:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There are always sources, no matter what the Indigenous group. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:35, 12 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Only so many, for some groups. The Nuxalk are larger in scope than some (the Sts'Ailes or Llenlleneyt'en (the "Canyon Shuswap" of the High Bar First Nation who are also Tsilhqot'in and not on any tribal council) for example...or the extinct Pentlatch and Stuwix but their web presence is fairly limited, even in terms of art museums and such; older works on them by Levi-Strauss and Barbeau, as you may know, are discredited now.  My point is that "in-house" sites such as this guy's are part of the local cultural landscape; they shouldn't be excluded simply because not well-formatted or COI.  "Local COI" is necessary to override for any small community, be it native or otherwise.Skookum1 (talk) 05:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Then it's time to go out and publish articles and books instead of worrying about Wikipedia. But I still maintain you can always dig up something, e.g. Sts'Ailes people. Citations don't have to be online; they can be published books. -Uyvsdi (talk) 06:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Culturally incorrect and systemic biases in many published sources is the problem, which is what I was talking about, and it's not like I'm not aware that citations don't have to be online; telling me the obvious as if I were a newbie instead of an eight-year-and-more veteran of Wikipedia's FN/NA titles is pointless and pretentious; my point is that indigenous/infra-community citations are the main sources that should be respected vs "reliable sources that aren't" and which use older names and terminology still fashionable among academics who don't actually talk to the peoples, but refer to other academics using obsolete/discredited names. Self-determination is a corollary to self-identification; what the people themselves have to say about themselves is far more important than what academics in their bubbles and bibliographies wallow in; and I'm familiar with what is out there in terms of BC sources; telling me to go write my own is only more pretension on the part of someone who doesn't write articles in this area at all, though presumes to play games with titles without any local knowledge at all and who AGFd me in the extreme saying she was "afraid" to write BC topic articles because of me; and who won't answer responses to questions she makes, or answer questions posed to her;  Unless you had something useful to add to Nuxalk Nation or Sts'Ailes, pontificating about me digging up sources when you haven't yourself is only so much more wiki-mumbling and academicist snobbery, and doesn't even get the point of the post you were responding to....Skookum1 (talk) 02:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

merge discussion
While this - Bella Coola Indian Reserve No. 1 - is the primary IR of the Nuxalk Nation, there are others that necessarily would have their own titles and accompanying coords, that would not redirect here because they're at e.g. Kimsquit and have their own histories. Also, this one, if anything, could redirect to Bella Coola, British Columbia as it's part of "metropolitan" Bella Coola, but then so are Firvale and Hagensborg; see either Talk:Bella Coola, British Columbia or Talk:Bella Coola Valley for items by who's lived there about these titles. Just because this is a stub for now also means it will always be; each IR has land history and village history that eventually could be added, as well as what modern services are located in each one (as also with other communities within the BCV). So
 * Oppose Move to Q'umk'uts' per other precedents (X̱wemelch'stn, Esla7an, Memkumlis; as where this should redirect is one issue, and its status as a stub is theoretically temporary; although redirecting IRs to band pages is useful, this is one case where there are extenuating considerations.Skookum1 (talk) 02:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Conditional Support The only way for this page to exist is under the name Q'umk'uts' - the Nuxalk name of the village that existed/exists on this territory. However, I'm not the right person to pull together the content required to make that a reality, and even that content should maybe just be included in the Bella Coola article, as it is part of the "townsite" of that community. However, as "Bella Coola Indian Reserve No. 1", its history is absolutely tied to the Nuxalk Nation - the two are nearly a 1:1 correspondence. So - UNLESS someone is going to write the Q'umk'uts' article, or content, then I think that Bella Coola Indian Reserve No. 1 should be redirected to Nuxalk Nation. AshleyMorton (talk) 06:26, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, there's where Sta7mes goes now, by RM, which is to a quasi-romanization because the native spelling included a [7] that offended objecting Wikipedians as non-English; it's now Stawamus (village) by RM; the IR name currently redirects there, Stawamus Indian Reserve No. 24; so by the bot-logic that prevails such thinking, the result here would be "Bella Coola". I'm all for Q'umk'uts, and I've done the same for places like Memkumlis and Qalugwis and various others in the Kwakwaka'wakw realms; though in all those cases I had to chose between various romanizations, as there are many; and try to use the ones the bands use; when they speak of the IR they're meaning the land as a parcel, often enough, but when they speak of the community they're speaking of it as a place, a community and of course ancient village-site.  Kwatna needs its own article, and both Kimsquit and Tallheo need lots more (unless Talyu is a different place?  Your solution works IMO because it gives local place/usage and fits with Hagensborg and Stuie et al; Bella Coola (townsite) or whatever might be what to do with the current town article, and use Bella Coola as a redirect to Bella Coola Valley as you'd suggested before; as with other rural-area communities of this kind the primary usage of the term refers to the whole area (Hazelton, Lillooet, Merritt come to mind; other local metropoles).  I'll change my vote then; I only started this discussion because someone had placed the merge template.Skookum1 (talk) 13:34, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note Just noticed Q'umquots in the first discussion above, way back in the mists of wiki-time, which is from www.nuxalk.org (not the government site which is .net). Modern native names come and go, I gather that Q'umk'uts is the preferred one in present times - ??Skookum1 (talk) 14:03, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 01:37, 30 April 2016 (UTC)