Talk:O. R. Melling

Dates
Please add some indication of dates - first publication of the various titles, even if a birth date for the author is unavailable. Pam D  09:33, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
 * (I've found some stubs for novels while stub-sorting and would like to categorise as 2010s-novel-stub etc rather than just novel-stub.) Pam  D  09:34, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Copyvio?
As of 1/31/2023, the text of this article is virtually identical to the text about her on Fantastic Fiction. The earliest internet archive snap of the Fantastic Fiction page is from 10/16/2021. Our article contained this text much earlier than that, at least as far back as 2008. The earliest draft of our article, from 2004, contains very similar language. So I think ours probably came first. However, Fantastic Fiction (the website) has been around since 1999, so it may well have come first. I can find no information about what sources they use for their information, so really I have no way of knowing who is plagiarizing whom in this case. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 19:23, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Contributing to article
Hi there, This article is about me & I wish to provide information with citations to update it. I sought help from editors a few months ago and several gave me great advice but I cannot find that discussion here. I'm returning after a bout of Covid, a crash course in creative technology, and several deadlines to provide said material and citations. Could you please advise. Do I just input here? Also could you help me find the original responses from editors if they still exist somewhere? All the best, O.R. Melling (aka GV Whelan, Val Decraney) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Val Decraney (talk • contribs) 11:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello, Val Decraney. I'll leave it to other editors to deal with your edit requests when you post them. I'll say that you can find "the original responses from editors" at Help desk/Archives/2023 January 31. (You could have found this by looking at the contributions page for your account.) And please remember to sign your messages here by typing ~ at the end. Deor (talk) 21:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi there, thanks. I somehow located those archives today - or someone directed them at me - they seemed to suddenly appear. The mysteries of Wiki. I've put in my edit request on the talk page.Val Decraney (talk) 21:45, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Providing material for my own page which is sad and thin.

 * What I think should be changed (include citations):

If possible, I would like to provide descriptive paragraphs detailing my life & work - I'm a senior artist, 70 years old, still working - in the style of pages of fellow fantasy writers Holly Black, Michael Scott, and Kate Thompson (the English-Irish one). I understand and accept that you may wish to edit what I provide. I will include citations from reliable indepdendent sources such as online sites, magazine articles et al.


 * Why it should be changed: The article is poorly written, thin on the ground, and lacks citations.

Thank you! Val aka O.R. Melling

Val Decraney (talk) 21:34, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Lightoil (talk) 03:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand the purpose of an edit request. The purpose isn't to request permission for you to edit. An edit request is for proposing specific changes to the article. Other editors will review your proposal and they will make the changes. Your proposal should have the form "Change X to Y" or "Delete X" or "Add X after Y", with sources cited. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:23, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi thanks for responding but no, I didn't think I could edit. I've understood from the get-go that you can't edit your own article. I was just trying to figure out how to propose changes. But I think I understand now. I'll give it a go shortly and see what happens. Thanks again. Val Decraney (talk) 16:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Disappearing Edit Request (?)
Hello there, Apologies but I'm on a steep learning curve here. I submitted a tranche of information last week via an edit request for those with conflict of interest, i.e. info plus citations for my own page O.R. Melling which is little more than a stub. I've heard nothing back and can't seem to find it now. I may not have signed off correctly. Or is this a time matter? Do I need to wait for a kind editor to spot it and respond? Thank you for any assistance you can give me. Val/O.R. Melling Val Decraney (talk) 09:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Rest assured, the issue of the disappearing edit request has been solved. Here's what happened: There are two pages in essence. There is O.R. Melling (with no space between the O. and the R.) and there is O. R. Melling (with a space between the O. and the R.). At some point the page without the space was created; then, when it was discovered that there should be a space between the two letters, the second page was created. The article exists currently on the page with the space.
 * There are also two talk pages, one with the space, and one without. These two talk pages exist in tandem with the two regular pages. Now anyone who clicks on the regular page without the space is immediately redirected towards the article with the space. This is called a redirect. However, there is no redirect for the talk page without the space. The edit request that you made was placed on the talk page without the space, when it should have been placed here, on the talk page with the space. What I can do is copy your edit request and place it here on the talk page with the space, and set up a redirect for the talk page without the space, so edit requests won't inadvertently be placed on the wrong talk page.
 * Eventually the two pages that don't have the space can be deleted and their logs all transferred to the pages with the space. I hope this explains what happened to the 'missing' request, tomorrow I'll bring that request to this page where it belongs, so it can be reviewed. Should you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Regards, Spintendo  03:22, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh THANK YOU SO MUCH. I was sure I did something wrong and in essence did as I wasn't aware there were two pages. This is the kind of thing that happens when you have initials for a name but it's an old tradition in fantasy e.g. E Nesbit, PL Travers, JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis et al. I truly appreciate you taking all this time and trouble. I've a few major submissions happening atm for arts grants and residencies and of course they go first to Wikipedia and my page is small and sad. Val Decraney (talk) Val Decraney (talk) 14:30, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Material for My Own Page of More Than One Para (plus citations) for Editors to Consider
I've prepared material similar in content & format to articles about Michael Scott (Irish Author) & Holly Black, both long established writers, chiefly fantasy, like myself. I provide sources, but my career began pre-Web so many are not online. I cite publication & date for these. I understand Wiki editors will accept or reject and/or edit this material. This is the 1st tranche. Your reactions will help me prepare upcoming submissions.
 * What I think should be changed (include citations):

O.R. Melling is a writer, screenwriter, literary critic (under G.V. Whelan & O.R. Melling), performative artist, craftswoman and world-wandering adventurer; upskilling in 2023 to creative technology XR/VR/AR new media art. Born in Ireland, raised and educated in Canada, she has since returned to Ireland where she lives at present. She is a dual citizen of Canada and Ireland and identifies as Irish Canadian.

[I have a selfie photo to provide when I figure out how to input it.]


 * Born: December, 1952 Dublin, Ireland
 * Pen-name: O.R. Melling
 * Main occupation: creator
 * Nationality: dual citizen of Ireland and Canada
 * Notable Works: The Chronicles of Faerie (4 book series)
 * Website: www.ormelling.com
 * Social Media: Twitter @ormelling1, LinkedIn O.R. Melling

Early life, education, and travel
Melling’s family emigrated by ship to Canada when she was four years old, and she grew up in Toronto, Ontario with her seven sisters and two brothers. As part of the Irish economic diaspora of the 1950s, she lived in Irish and mixed immigrant communities, mostly English, Scottish, Italian, Polish and Hungarian at that time, and attended Roman Catholic Schools, both primary and secondary, as well as Irish dance classes. She was a North American champion Irish dancer, winning both Canadian and American Junior and Senior Championships.

In 1969, as a teen, Melling toured Ireland with the Irish Canadian Choral Society and the Butler Academy of Irish Dancing, performing a solo dance to the choir singing “The Girl with the Buckles on Her Shoes”. At a reception at Aras an Uachtarain, the official residence of the President of Ireland, she danced for then President Eamon de Valera, who shook her hand and thanked her for supporting Irish culture abroad.

Acquiring a love of travel from Irish dance feises (competitions) and two returns to Ireland at nine and sixteen years of age, Melling set off at 18 years old to hitchhike across Canada and down the west coast of America where she lived as a “transient” on Highway One with many other young people of that time [Linda Mahood, Thumbing A Ride: Hitchhikers, Hostels, and Counterculture in Canada. Walking across the Canada/USA border, she worked as a volunteer on the Moose Tempura Organic Farm in the East Delta of British Columbia, growing organic vegetables and learning crafts such as tie-dying, batik and macramé, while picking strawberries on nearby fruit farms for income.

After seven months away, Melling hitchhiked home to Toronto. She then joined the inaugural year of Canada World Youth/Jeunesse Canada Monde in 1972 for a year-long youth exchange work programme that involved training camps in northern Ontario and Alberta and projects in Malaysia including north Borneo. Years later, she would publish her teen novel based on this experience, My Blue Country, with the Penguin Group 1996.

After CWY/JCM, Melling enrolled in an undergraduate degree at Trinity College, University of Toronto in 1973. After two years of a general arts programme of philosophy (winning scholarship awards), Celtic Studies, Women’s Studies, African, Chinese and Latin American Studies, she was accepted into Osgoode Hall Law School based on her high LSAT (Law Society Aptitude Testing) scores. However, after several months attendance, she decided law wasn’t for her and returned to Trinity College to complete her three-year Bachelor of Arts degree, graduating cum laude and on the Dean’s Honour List.

During her Trinity College years, Melling signed up for the Reserve Officers University Training Programme (ROUTP) as an Officer Cadet in the Royal Canadian Navy, attending one night a week at H.M.C.S. York on the Toronto lakefront and the following two summers on the east and west coasts of Canada in CFB Esquimalt and CFB Halifax. This was only the second year that females were accepted on this programme, training in leadership, navigation, communication (Morse, semaphore, radio), sailing (whalers and small craft), handling Gate Vessels and YFPs, firefighting, NBCD and Warfare School, weapons (SMG, FN Rifle, Browning Pistol), drill in French and English and obstacle course. In 1976, Melling was granted the Queen’s Commission at the rank of Lieutenant (Canadian Armed Forces)/Sublieutenant (Naval Reserve).

In 1983, she returned to Trinity College to complete the 4th year of an Honours B.A. majoring in Early Irish and Medieval Studies, publishing “The Place of John Eriugena in the Irish Learning Tradition" in a Canadian journal of Mediaeval Studies. She was awarded the University of Toronto’s Faculty Scholar as well as the Archimedes Award for Creative Endeavour. From there she went on to complete a Master of Arts in Mediaeval History with an Ontario Graduate Scholarship.

In between her various school stints and adventures, Melling worked for a living as a secretary, bank teller, advertising accounts clerk, editorial/production assistant (William Collins & Sons), registrar of a Jesuit theological college, and festival organiser of Bealtaine, Celtic Spring Festival of Arts and Music at the Harbourfront, Toronto. She also returned periodically to live in Ireland, working as a barmaid and waitress in her aunt and uncle’s hotel in Co. Leitrim. During a year-long stay in Ireland in 1982, where she worked as a barmaid in Dublin City, she researched and wrote her first YA fantasy novel The Druid’s Tune which she brought back to Canada to be published internationally by Penguin Books.

Her life as a professional albeit peripatetic writer had begun.

I am 70 years old, still a full-time working artist, with a long life & career behind me. I would like to be reasonably represented on Wikipedia, a site I use often & utterly respect. Val Decraney (talk) 14:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Why it should be changed:

Val Decraney (talk) 14:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * There's a lot there. I have split out what appear to be your citations into a separate citation list; please check whether anything is missing or if two citations got combined or one citation got split into two. You can see what I did in the page source you wrote, and make corrections.
 * There is some unnecessary detail that should be removed. Editorializing should be removed (such as the last line). The lead paragraph should simply summarize the body text and not introduce new material that isn't in the body.
 * The main problem, as I see it, is the verifiability of the sources, and their reliability. I haven't attempted to check any of them, but if you have more links (excerpt links from Google Books, for example) that would be helpful. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hadn't seen this discussion; have just done some editing to the article to address the copy/paste and no footnotes tags, so hope that doesn't muddy things too much. I will add the Loretto article / interview to verify school attendance and as an external link. Tacyarg (talk) 18:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for all your hard work. The page is already looking far less sad. I can verify all the sources by pdf or whatever way you prefer but as I mentioned previously a lot is pre-Web & I've been unable to locate digital sources so far but will keep looking. Please note I was born December 1952 - no need to make me older than I am! There are plenty of images of me online so perhaps you could attach one to the article? Or is that a separate matter? I would not describe myself as a novelist and never did. My agent is selling my first non-fiction work at present while I'm half-way through my second non-fiction, while also engaged in creating an XR/immersive theatrical production. I would say writer, screenwriter, performance artist (my website shows my work in this area which is verifiable online e.g. the Octocon Irish National Sci Fi Convention performance, Twitter page with The Dante Project etc) upskilling to XR/immersive art. This is not promotion but verifiable fact. I have more material to add, I was just waiting to see what the Wiki editors preferred and approved. But truly I appreciate all the work done on my behalf here. I should've done this years ago when I first noticed the Wikipedia article - it's been up for decades - but only found the time to do it here in my latter years. I know you prefer outside editors to do this and I can only wonder why none of my readers who have been contacting me, visiting me and posting videos on youtube for years never did it. C'est la vie. Val Decraney (talk)Val DeCraney Val Decraney (talk) 11:07, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * PS The thank you was to both of you. Val Decraney (talk) Val Decraney (talk) 11:08, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Anachronist, I seem to be replying here on a different page than the one I replied to yesterday which includes another editor? I'm wondering if any of the material I've provided above will be added to the page. Also the wrong birth date is now on the wiki page. I can back up the print citations with emails, PDFs or whatever but e.g. the Irish President's archival material for that time is not online or digitalised (is that a word?). I have a photocopy of the newspaper article which they sent me.Val Decraney (talk) Val Decraney (talk) 19:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it would be easiest to go through the references shown above, number by number, and we'll talk about which can be used and which cannot. That way, you'll be able to see what information we can add and the reasons why for anything we can't. Please note that the numbers below correspond with the numbers in the references list on this talk page.
 * This reference is an interview with the subject of the article, so it's not really useful here, because it's the author giving the information, and Wikipedia prefers information from reliable, third party sources.
 * If you could upload a pdf of this article to Wikimedia, that would be helpful. That may or may not be challenging based on your familiarity with digital documents handling. If you feel that you're proficient, you can try using the file upload wizard to accomplish this.
 * This source appears to be a Portraits section of a librarian magazine. Not being familiar with it, I would guess that the information comes from some sort of interview, and thus would not be as helpful as other sources.
 * It's not clear what this source is, it only says "UBC Press", so any text in your proposal which uses #4 as a source can't be added.
 * This appears to be another magazine interview, which would not be as helpful.
 * This is an anniversary publication of Featured Alumna, which I take to be an in-house publication by a publishing house, where their authors are discussed/interviewed. This too, if that's correct, would not be helpful.
 * This is the subject author's own book, so it cant be used.
 * This is a Canadian Who's Who publication, which is not helpful because that information is often times provided by the individuals in the book.
 * This article, An Exile at Home, at first appears to be the best source of the lot, possibly an academic journal. However, the information in your edit request which uses #9 as the reference appears to concern the subject's undergraduate work in college, including the subject's personal reasons for not attending law school, which would be odd coming from an academic journal. the mystery of what this source is remains.
 * This information is from a database of author information compiled by Gale Literature. As this is usually information provided to Gale by the subjects within the database, it's not very helpful.
 * This is an author profile, which again, usually consists of information provided to the profiler by the profiled subject.
 * This might be a good source, but its hard to tell because no author has been provided (either that, or an organization is the author, or its a textbook of some kind). I cant be sure.
 * This source is an alumni publication, which I'm guessing contains interviews or other such subject-interview-provided information.
 * This is from an arts festival, perhaps explaining different subjects which can be seen/read/heard during the art festival. These types of publications often contain subject-interview-provided information.
 * (See Number 5 above)
 * (See Number 7 above)
 * This is a website that provides limited information unfortunately, providing little value as a source (who compiled the information/where does it come from/ how do we know its accurate, etc.).
 * Hopefully this helps to explain what can and cannot be used in the article. If you have any questions, of course please don't hesitate to ask. Regards, Spintendo  01:35, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you again for all your hard work. Will get back to you on this. Any chance you could correct my birthdate? It's 1952. Wikipedia had the correct date but the other editor changed it for some reason to the wrong date. Thanks! Val Decraney (talk) Val Decraney (talk) 10:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Val Decraney The Nī Bhroin source is giving the birth year of 1951 on page 72. It may seem Kafkaesque having to argue for your own birth year, but unfortunately we operate on sourcing and the number can't be changed arbitrarily without something that says it in print or something from an WP:RS online. Regards, Spintendo  22:58, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Added DOB, no trouble finding a reliable source. Hameltion (talk &#124; contribs) 03:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * THANK YOU, Hameltion. And yes, Spintendo, this whole process is truly like trying to make my way through Kafka's castle. I spent hours locating those citations. Where else would there be information about my private life but in interviews et al? Biographers use personal journals, letters & interviews for the life of artists & then become a reliable source. Also there's enough scientific evidence to show that 3rd party witnesses are no more reliable as they carry their own agendas. Even if Wiki chooses to begin with the premise that I've been lying about my life in interviews all my life, these items do not promote my work but simply detail my experience. And I provide photographic evidence of same on my website. I will try one more set of data to do specifically with work so hopefully those citations will be acceptable. Val Decraney (talk) Val Decraney (talk) 08:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So at this point Wikipedia is the least accurate of any sources on me? Some journalist who doesn't know me gets to declare my birthdate? Will I provide my birth cert? Would that be a reliable source? Val Decraney (talk) Val Decraney (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Val Decraney I understand it must feel very frustrating. But editors here are bound by the guideline that cover biographies of living people. They need to be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. They're required to document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subject. In some circumstances, what the subject has published about themselves can also be used. When they do, it should only be as long as it is not unduly self-serving nor based primarily on such sources. You can see how using a lot of material that originates from the author can bring the article very close to the limits of those guidelines. It's understandably frustrating not having it all done quickly, but Rome wasn't built in a day, while the importance of getting BLP subject articles correct requires being especially meticulous. I think I speak for everyone when I say we're all here to make It happen, and make it right. As far as the birthdate, I think it has been changed in the article to 1952 by Hameltion. Regards  Spintendo  07:41, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you Spintendo for your response and efforts. As a volunteer in a different area, I do appreciate the volunteer work of Wiki editors. You're talking about time frame here? I assumed all my citations were rejected outright but are you saying they are still being considered? I would think the scenario about my birthdate showed clearly that other sources can be no more reliable than me. The journalist was wrong but was considered more reliable because she's a secondary source. I think Wikipedia needs to add good faith and common sense to its assessment criteria. Good faith in that most people are honest and could be taken to be so until proven otherwise. Common sense in that in this day and age it would be madness to lie about yourself online as you can be so easily exposed and suffer the consequences. Val Decraney (talk) Val Decraney (talk) 08:28, 11 July 2023 (UTC)