Talk:Oakwood Cemetery (Troy, New York)/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

There is much good material here and it appears well sourced. The text needs work but I do not see the issues as insurmountable

Lead
The article's lead is too short. It does not properly summarize the history and geography sections, and other parts of the article. see WP:LEAD
 * Will work on this over the coming days, though I think the lead is pretty good.  upstate NYer  06:42, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, done  upstate NYer  04:44, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Textual issues
There are weasel words ("Notable"), unnecessary ones ("located"), a few unclear sections, areas with excessive commas and some rather convoluted sentences. I've cherry picked some for example.

History

 * The 1830s saw the development of the first rural cemetery in America with Mount Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge, Massachusetts -> In the 1830s the first rural cemetery in the United States was developed, Mount Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge, Massachusetts. - not sure that a decade can see something. and America can be ambiguous given the date and country boundaries.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * On September 9, 1848, the Troy Cemetery Association was organized, with John Paine...elected its trustees. -> Troy Cemetery Association was formed on September 9, 1848; John Paine...elected its trustees
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The trustees appointed a A committee was appointed to report on an eligible location - presumably the committee was appointed by the trustees and the location is not being reported for something (like a crime)
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Troy Cemetery Association - it is clear from context what the association is
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * His plan consisted of many roads - either state how many roads or drop "many". the word does not convey information
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Though Sidney was may be the architect of Oakwood, but it was superintendent John Boetcher that gave Oakwood its charm - I like this sentiment but the wording needs work. no need to mention Oakwood twice.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Upon starting, it is said - it is said by whom ? Is this upon Boetcher starting or the cemetery's operation starting ?
 * It is said by the NRHP nomination; changed wording to upon his starting...  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * During Boetcher's tenure saw the building of Oakwood's most notable icons were built: the Earl Chapel and Crematorium, the Warren Chapel Mortuary, the keeper's house, the office lodge, numerous mausolea, and both the 101st Street and 114th Street entrances (including a bridge over the Troy and Boston Railroad on Oakwood's western border to the 101st Street entrance). Tenure's don't have eyes. Look at incorporating the bracketed text into the prose flow.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Troy and Lansingburgh, respectively. - unnecessary comma
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * With these additions, the burials within Oakwood. Given the context shouldn't this be reinterrals rather than additions ?
 * Good point; I went with slightly different wording.  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Though it was a  A cemetery by definition, Oakwood quickly became a place for recreation, being and was used in its early days as a public park - I think reads much better as it is classified as a cemetery not defined as one.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Today, the cemetery contains roughly 60,000 graves and, because it is still in operation, it continues to grow - "Today" dates fast, unnecessary commas etc. -> As of 2009 the cemetery contained approximately 60,000 graves; a number that will grow while it remains in operation.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  05:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Geography
&rarr;Oakwood is built on an escarpment that rises east of the fluvial plain surrounding the Hudson River, opposite the junction of the Hudson and Mohawk. It is in eastern Lansingburgh, within the northeast section of the city of Troy. &rarr;The cemetery covers 352 acres (142ha) of which 325 acres (132 ha) are listed on the National Register of Historic Places - is this more concise and accurate ?
 * Oakwood is located in - Located here and in at least two other places is unnecessary.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  06:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Oakwood is located in eastern Lansingburgh, within the northeast section of the city of Troy,[n 1] on the escarpment that rises to the east of the fluvial plain surrounding the Hudson River, opposite the junction of the Hudson and Mohawk
 * The entire cemetery totals 352 acres (142 ha), 325 acres (132 ha) contributing to the listing on the National Register of Historic Places - surely it covers rather than totals ?
 * The entire cemetery totals 352 acres (142 ha), 325 acres (132 ha) contributing to the listing on the National Register of Historic Places - surely it covers rather than totals ?
 * Personally I like my wording better, but not enough to debate about it. I went for something in the middle.  upstate NYer  06:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Landmarks

 * The large amount of space in rural cemeteries permitted the use of sculpture - does this mean that it is no longer permitted. Perhaps permits rather than permitted.
 * The implication here (I know, don't imply anything) is that cemetery sculpture is much less common today, making it more of a historical fad that has little weight today (mainly due to cost). Changed anyway.  upstate NYer  06:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Many notable sculptors - notable is a bit weaselly and probably unnecessary. One of the most notable monuments - try "important momuments" or "significant monuments". Look at all uses of "notable" as there are usually better qualifiers if one is required at all
 * Can't think of any better word to describe the interments; they aren't necessarily all important, nor are they all significant. They're just... notable.  upstate NYer  06:41, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (picture caption) - "The Giles Memorial, like many at Oakwood, incorporates benches for visitors to rest upon ". I don't think a reader expects visitors to use them otherwise.
 * ✅, though one could very well do headstands on it rather than rest.  upstate NYer  06:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Mausolea

 * As stated, Oakwood is home to 24 mausolea ...to name a few - "As stated" is unnecessary and "to name a few" more so.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  06:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Sage Mausoleum, built of Westerly granite, exhibits obvious Greek influences and is intentionally unnamed - it is named (as the Sage Mausoleum). Better to say that the name is not marked.
 * ✅  upstate NYer  06:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * To the left of the memorial - does this mean "On the memorial's left" ?
 * To the left when looking at it; how does one word that so there is no confusion?  upstate NYer  06:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Notable interments

 * Rip Coleman, baseball player[citation needed] - needs a citation or removal.
 * Deleted; left over from before I rewrote the article, but I've found no evidence of this.  upstate NYer  06:05, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Grave of Samuel Wilson, progenitor of Uncle Sam (photo caption)- I am sure he is not the progenitor and it is a gravestone rather than a grave. Uncle Sam is his namesake.
 * In fact, if the NHRP app is correct, Congress declared Samuel Wilson "the progenitor of America's National symbol of Uncle Sam." I've searched for this phrase online, and have found it, but not from any sort of RS. I asked at WP:USC a while back but got no answer. While I believe this meets RS guidelines for the article, I personally would like to find evidence from the feds that this resolution existed, but documents from the 60s have yet to make their way online from the government. That said, who better than the city of Troy to know that this is true?  upstate NYer  06:05, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Notes and references
&rarr;Reinterred at Oakwood in 1869 when the Third Street Burying Ground was sold&mdash;the city hall is mentioned earlier
 * Note 7 is a duplicate of note 6
 * Looks like I'm not sure how to name one of these note refs to be called multiple times. Do you?  upstate NYer  06:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing that. :)  upstate NYer  17:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note 6/7 Reinterred at Oakwood in 1869 following the removal from original burial ground on Third Street to build a new city hall
 * Updated #6, so when issue above is fixed, #7 will follow.  upstate NYer  06:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The railroad bed is currently - currently is not a good word here as it lacks a time reference. "As of 200x" or something similar is better.
 * the links within the inline references appear unnecessary as the link has been provided in the references section. Is is necessary at all to link to an online copy of the book ?
 * The links in the inline references go straight to the cited page of that reference within Google Books. The link in the bibliography section brings you to the overview page at Google books. These links are invaluable, especially if you're not just reading, but looking for a viable source. It's a habit all writers here should go by, because it's a real time-saver when you're trying to begin legitimate research.  upstate NYer  06:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ref 33 (Richardson, Charles Henry (1917)) should be formatted the way the rest are with author, p.x and the full cite in the bibliography.
 * Fixed. Only reason I did that is because that book is only cited once, so a one-time, page-specific book reference is warranted, but I can see where you want the consistency.  upstate NYer  06:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Only reason I did that is because that book is only cited once, so a one-time, page-specific book reference is warranted, but I can see where you want the consistency.  upstate NYer  06:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Images
Good images that appear all correctly licenced. I am not keen on the two galleries as they break the text too much. The commons link at the bottom is sufficient. Please look at image placement and numbers to keep the article visually appealing.
 * I disagree on the galleries; I think they give an immediate and thorough overview of the different designs found within the cemetery. They don't break the flow any more than the panorama, which is essential to the article. Honestly, I think this is one of my best illustrated articles. There are more than 60 images at Commons; only 20 are used here. I know that sounds like a large number, but relative to the textual content, they are used quite well, IMO.  upstate NYer  06:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Links

 * Grave, Vault (in one place) and Knoll both link to disambiguation pages. They need specific targets
 * ✅  upstate NYer  04:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * United States House of Representatives is overlinked as is Russell Sage and Lansingburgh- once is enough. Probably more I have missed.
 * Okay, I see where you're coming from, but here's my practice:
 * I always link relevant words in captions for those readers that are just browsing; real time saver when you want to find out more
 * I always link the first mention of a relevant word/phrase in the lead and the body of the text; again, saves time when you're looking for a link to click
 * To stay consistent, I linked all persons with articles in the Notable interments section; do you think that should be changed?
 * I only looked at Russell Sage, but those situations above account for all his links.
 * Is is necessary to link to common terms like United States, 2000s (decade), Hill, Ireland and some more.
 * I agree on hill, but I disagree on the others, especially 2000s, since I'm indicating a decade and not a century. Linking United States keeps the consistency of linking Troy, New York, ...  upstate NYer  06:23, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * When two terms are side-by-side and linked (like Major General Wool) I think it better to link like Major General Wool
 * Fair point. Fixed.  upstate NYer  06:23, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Next bit
I've just finished reading through again and will leave the comments below in the next 24 hours. Minor things I'll just fix in the article as it takes less time to fix than describe. Most of my issues raised above have been fixed or explained. - Peripitus (Talk) 23:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me.  upstate NYer  06:10, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Last few comments below - then I'll scan again through your answers above.
 * Lead
 * Don't quote me but shouldn't non-sectarian be hyphenated ?
 * I don't believe so. The WP article has no hyphen, nor does the wiktionary definition (the hyphenated version is given as an alternative spelling there).
 * Fair enough - subtleties of punctuation is not my strong point - Peripitus (Talk) 10:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It states that the association deals strictly with cemetery operations. I cannot see this (obvious though it is) fact cited in the article
 * Source++
 * ok now - though I do prefer no references in the lead as the lead is just a summary. There is no rule for this though - just a personal preference.
 * History
 * "Rural cemeteries followed closely with" - does this mean followed closely after (in time). If so other wording would be better
 * No, it's supposed to indicate that they developed alongside each other. I updated the wording. Let me know if that's clearer.
 * Much better now.
 * "The Association is made up of volunteer lot owners" - should this be is or was. Does the line refer to the foundation (as it is in the history section) or over all the time the cemetery has been, or just now ?
 * The entire history; the makeup of the association (who can be on it, not the individuals) hasn't changed.
 * ok
 * "added to the Register" - should Register be in capitals ? not sure here
 * I believe it should be, because it's the Register.
 * ok
 * Geography
 * "on the west to Oakwood Avenue on the east" - what does this mean. Are the last 3 words an error ?
 * This should be read - using math terms - as (gurley avenue on the west) to (Oakwood Ave on the east).
 * Added a comma to make this explicitly clear.
 * Landmarks
 * Robert Ross....martyrdom ? Not in the conventional sense or was it ? Perhaps needs a few words of explanation. Perhaps also a couple of words on who Ross was, I assume not Major General Robert Ross (war of 1812) ?
 * "Martyrdom" comes directly from the NHRP nomination. If you're referring to Robert Ross (British Army officer), then it's not him because he is buried under the monument at Oakwood, not in the tombs shown in that article. This is the only statement made in the NRHP Nom: "Also at Oakwood is Robert Ross who died defending the purity of the ballot, a martyrdom that focussed national attention on New York's election laws."
 * I assume then that he was truly a martyr....perhaps not the most inspiring thing to die for
 * Gardner Earl Memorial Chapel and Crematorium
 * "who died after becoming ill on a trip to Europe in March 1887"
 * &rarr;Either he had the trip in March 1887 - "who died after becoming ill, on a trip he made to Europe in March 1887"
 * &rarr;or he died in March 1887 - "who died in March 1887 after becoming ill on a trip to Europe"
 * &rarr;or both - "who became ill and died on a trip to Europe in March 1887"
 * Both. Fixed.
 * Thanks - better now


 * "Westerly granite" - should this really be capitalised ?
 * Westerly, Rhode Island is a town. That's where the name comes from (it's also linked at that point in the article)
 * Not sure but will let this ride. There is most likely a proper scientific name for this granite based on the geological features of the source area. Something for another time though - Peripitus (Talk) 10:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "As impressive as the exterior is, the interior demands even more attention" - does this agree with the referenced work ? For some technical reason I can't load the page and check.
 * Nope; turns out that was all me. Fixed.
 * Better now
 * "quartered oak ceilings" - made into quarters or made from quarter sawn oak ?. If the former then ignore this comment
 * I don't know, the Nomination only uses the term exactly as I have. Cobb describes the furniture as quarter oak, but I'm not sure what that means either, to be honest.
 * In context it is probably ok as written.
 * "The chancel contains an onyx altar and mosaic floor comprised of more than twenty colors of marble." - One day I will visit with my camera gear and spend a happy day in this cemetery and its buildings.
 * Yes, that's on my list of things to do. Unfortunately the Earl is only open during funerals (and I'm not about to start crashing them with a camera around my neck). I'll have to call up the superintendent one of these days and get access. I also want to take a photo from the top of the tower to use as the main image, but that's almost always closed as well. I also plan to get a photo of Emma Willard and Amos Eaton's gravestones to place in the Notable interments section. They aren't listed though, so I'll have to ask someone on the staff. Uncle Sam is much easer because they have placards up at each intersection in the cemetery to point in his direction.
 * Warren Family Mortuary Chapel
 * "English country Gothic style" - capitals check required
 * Not that I'm saying the NRHP nom is gospel, but that's exactly the capitalizing scheme it uses.
 * Ok - again this type of thing is not my strong point
 * Vanderheyden Bell
 * "In 1971 it was resurrected" - was it or was it restored ?
 * The source uses the term "resurrected" and makes no mention of restoration of the bell, only that it was rehung (resurrected)
 * Mausolea
 * with a bronze door in the Art Nouveau style - is the door only Art Nouveau style ? If so a comma before the "with" else it is unclear
 * Just the door. Fixed.
 * Other bits


 * "Recreation of Wall's photo The Panorama showing the view from prospect overlooking Lansingburgh" - should prospect be capitalised ?
 * I don't think so; it's just a word, not a title. I looked both here and at wiktionary, but neither include a definition as used here. The dictionary on my Mac (which I believe is Oxford) gives this: "an extensive view of landscape". So I think it's okay the way it is.
 * You have "the United States House of Representatives" frequently. In news media I have often seen it referred to simply as "Congress" so consider
 * &rarr;1st instance "the United States House of Representatives (Congress)
 * &rarr;other instances change to "Congress" - just a thought.
 * I disagree. Congress, by definition, is the collection of the House and Senate. While Reps are typically called "Congressman", the term is equally correct for a Senator, if not more degrading. Referring to the House only is more correct.
 * From a vast distance Congress is always referred to as the house of reps and the Senate is the Senate. I'll assume here that a writer from the USA has the right end of the stick though - Peripitus (Talk) 10:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

- Peripitus (Talk) 12:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC) Responses dated  upstate NYer  16:35, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I moved two images down - to stop text being squeezed between two images. Good idea to change your text size and get an idea of how it will look to reader's with different setups.
 * The two images group doesn't look the best - lots of dead grey space. How about
 * I went with horizontal because otherwise the setup you offer will overflow into the other sections, which I really don't want. I want to see the images in their respective sections. I guess in a pinch, I could just remove the 1901 image.

Doing one last read now - Peripitus (Talk) 10:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Reviewer: Peripitus (Talk) 05:29, 24 November 2009 (UTC)