Talk:Oath of Citizenship (Canada)

"It has been stated by Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, of the Islamic Institute of Toronto, that muslims may take the Oath of Citizenship "as long as you are clear in your mind that you are doing so without contravening the sovereignty of Allah"; reciting it should not be viewed as a form of shirk.[9]"

--Is this sentence completely necessary. It seems to be too specific a detail.

Assessment
I have assessed this as a B-Class, given the large amount of referenced detail and proper organization, and of mid importance, as I feel that this topic plays a strong, if not vital, role in Canada. Cheers, CP 16:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Source
Rufus, you are, of course, quite correct that Wikipedia relies on reliable sources. However, you must give sound reason for why archived video footage does not meet WP:RS standards. --G2bambino (talk) 21:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is the onus on me or any other reader to take the time to track down the source? That's your job. If you can't or won't, I'll keep removing the passage. By the way, I have lots of time to do this. The Wikipedia monarchy-republic pages aren't your personal domain to patrol and edit at whim so it's probably best to cooperate and work towards balance and consensus.MC Rufus (talk) 22:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't know anything about sources, do you? --G2bambino (talk) 22:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't anybody look to me for sources. I always got empty pockets in those situations. GoodDay (talk) 22:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The sourcing issue aside, the supposed fact that the "recantation rally" was poorly attended in a particular year is simply not important to the subject of the Canadian Oath of Citizenship. I've re-written the paragraph with an eye to sticking to the subject, cutting that and other material which, it seems to me, was not giving useful information about the Oath, but was either publicising or belittling the CCR, its members or its activities. Some of the paragraph's stuff (both of the cut and of the left) should go into the article on the CCR, which is rather light on material as it stands. (As for the sourcing issue, an ephemeral broadcast is not a good enough source because it is useless for verification. Therefore, unless a clip of this supposed interview has been archived where it can be reviewed, it won't do the job because there no proof of what was actually said in it, nor even of that it ever took place.  I could find no trace of it in the CBC archives.  However, this is now academic, here, and I hope it remains so.) -- Lonewolf BC (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Charles Roach / Ashok Charles confusion
This page seems to imply that Charles Roach and Ashok Charles are different people - Mr Roach being the lawyer, and Mr Charles being the citizen who recanted his citizenship oath. The article seems to confuse the two. Maybe someone can attempt to clarify this? --Choongiri (talk) 07:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've corrected it. There should be no confusion now. - MC Rufus (talk) 22:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Ceremony Policy
See this document http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/cp/cp15-eng.pdf 96.48.156.109 (talk) 05:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you point out where it says only a citizenship judge can preside over a citizenship ceremony? -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  21:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * On page 10 - Section 4.1 - only when a Citizenship Judge is not available shall others preside and each occasion is approved on a case base case basis by the Registrar.  Also, on page 96 "Do not address Citizenship Judges as "Your Honour"
 * Here is a video of a typical ceremony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfnr4JWrImE
 * I will leave it to your to revert the changes. 96.50.86.210 (talk) 18:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That affirms what the article currently says.
 * The quotation begining "Your Honour..." is reliably sourced. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  16:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The source is 12 years old and out of date and incorrect. See page 96 of the policy document 15. CIC would like to educate people of the proper protocol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 03:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Section 19 of the Citizenship Act Regulations clearly states that Citizenship Judges are the default officer to preside at a Citizenship Ceremony. 19. (1) Subject to subsection 5(3) of the Act and section 22 of these Regulations, a person who has been granted citizenship under subsection 5(1) of the Act shall take the oath of citizenship by swearing or solemnly affirming it before a citizenship judge.
 * The policy document on page 10 expands on the legislation only. Anyone other than a citizenship judge is an exception and may only preside when a citizenship judge is not available.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 03:52, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not the same thing as only a citizenship judge may preside over a citizenship ceremony.
 * Where's the evidence the Statistics Canada source is "out of date"? -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  14:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyone other than a Citizenship Judge is an exception. The Act is the senior document "The Oath SHALL be sworm before a Citizenship Judge.  The Regulations establish that tjere may be exception.  The Policy lays out how the exception is applied when a Citizenship Judge is not available.  Of the 3,000 ceremonies held each year the vast majority follow the primary direction of the Act.
 * The Stats Canada reference is unofficial commentary of a practice that is out of date that has been superceded by policy set out in the reference at the top of this section on page 96. Clearly stating "Do not refer to a Citizenship Judge as "Your Honour." The section as says do not use the term "Court" when it is a Ceremony Room, and do not use the demand "Order" when opening a Citizenship Ceremony.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.194.127.36 (talk) 16:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you have a read of WP:EW and WP:BRD and leave the lead alone until you've found consensus to make the change you desire. I think the detail is entirely unnecessary; per WP:LEAD, the opening of the article is meant to summarise and the detail is provided in the article body. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  16:11, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a matter of propriety here as to the procedures for Citizenship. Consensus regarding the role of Citizenship Judges was created by Parliament. It is the law of the land.  The Citizenship Act is clear "a person who has been granted citizenship under subsection 5(1) of the Act shall take the oath of citizenship by swearing or solemnly affirming it before a citizenship judge."  It is a stand alone section.   The exception is explained later, but the "Law" has primacy. Under the law a Citizenship "Officer" has no authority to administer the oath.  A Citizenship Officer is an employee of the CIC Department.96.50.86.210 (talk) 19:53, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I (for one - don't know about others) have read the WP:EW reference you offered and have complied with trying to find consensus... with the sole person who has challenged the well supported edits offered in this article. The dozens of lines above demonstrate the good faith of the editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.86.210 (talk) 22:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * With regard to the general vrs the specific outlined in the lead policy, "official" is not the correct synonym for Citizenship Judges and the other occasional guests.  Something like "persons designated by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration" as he is the sole authority to recommend and approve both citizenship judges and the few others who are present at a small number of events.  Albeit he has delegated that authority to the Registrar. 96.50.86.210 (talk) 23:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The point raised was about detail in the lead.
 * Nothing in the lead currently contradicts any source, legal or otherwise. The word previously used in the lead was "officers". I've now changed it to "officials"; the word is perfectly apt, since someone presiding over a citizenship ceremony is most definitely acting in an official capacity.
 * Bare urls can not be used as refs, in part because they don't direct readers to where the relevant information is in the source (I don't know what in this supports the sentence it was placed at the end of). Citation templates are here. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  17:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * officials is okay, but others (than a Citizenship Judge) are delegated through a "delegating document" 205.194.127.36 (talk)
 * It would seem that it applys to the condition that, "any citizen may be appointed as a citizenship judge as the page provides a bio of each current appointee. 205.194.127.36 (talk)
 * "Delegate" means to assign or pass on responsibility to someone else. Judges are included among the people who may preside over a ceremony, who are designated to do so. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  21:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Splitting hairs perhaps, but as the editor correctly points out - to designate anyone other than a Judge to administer the oath, the Registrar of Citizenship on behalf of the Minister must sign a delegating instrument to delegate authority to that person. Designated works but it is not the language properly used.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.156.109 (talk) 04:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ITS CLEAR WHY THIS WILL REMAIN A CLASS B ARTICLE! 96.50.86.210 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:34, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "As the editor..."? You are "the editor". Socking is heavily frowned upon.
 * Read the sentence in the lead again. It talks broadly about people who can conduct a citizenship ceremony. Citizenship judges are within that group, not apart from it. Though it is not they who assign others to oversee a ceremony, they still could not delegate the task to themselves, if delegation was a power they possessed. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  18:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

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