Talk:Obadiah of Bertinoro

Edit request: birth year
Date of birth should be changed from 1465 to 1445. This is in accordance with the brief biography iIn the back of Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's book "The Living Torah" It also makes more sense. 209.2.61.8 20:01, 9 May 2012
 * The 2 RS I found say c. 1450 (?) - in/before 1316, with question mark. Arminden (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

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Most of it is copy-pasted: copyright issue?
Sections "Arrival in the Land of Israel" (first half), "Influence in Palestine", and "Literary activity" were copy-pasted from Jewish Encyclopedia (JE). A couple of minimal additions contradicted the source (he never spoke Arabic) or were unsourced and likely made up (sermons in Italian in Egypt?!), so I removed them. The term "Palestine" now back in; one "politically correctness"-driven cut also (very informative, both for Bertinoro's and Ginzberg's time). Once the year (1906) and the fact that it's a quotation are clearly stated, I see absolutely no problem with that, on the contrary.

PROBLEM: public domain yes, but such massive copy-paste?! I have set those sections between quotation marks, to make it clear at least. Changing 1 word in 50 isn't allowed either when one quotes a whole paragraph, so I restored the original wording, and where bits were left out for good editorial reason (irrelevant, overly long formulations) I added three dots. But that doesn't fully address the copyright issue. Or is this allowed on Wiki? Arminden (talk) 11:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Move to "Obadiah of Bertinoro"
As former contributors, you might want to check out the discussion here and maybe contribute to it. Please do take a look at the next topic on this talk-page too. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 13:58, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , Hi. Excellent suggestion! I would agree to the change, since I have always referred to him as Rabbi Obadiah of Bertinoro."Davidbena (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you David! May I copy-paste your reply to that discussion page? Arminden (talk) 19:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course you can.Davidbena (talk) 03:18, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced changes: his languages; C15 academies in Palestine
In passages copy-pasted from EJ, an editor has made changes w/o offering sources. My problems are:
 * the editor is anonymous
 * OR
 * source for one claim only offered in edit summary, but it sound plausible
 * source offered is a primary one
 * inserted in EJ text
 * contradicts EJ author ("fluent in Arabic") and apparent logic (sermons held in Italian, in Egypt!; daily, not just on every other Sabbath)

You find them
 * here, edit summary: According to his own writings in "Pathway to Jerusalem" he spoke fluent Arabic (which the original piece claimed he didnt). His own writings state he gave regular sermons in those three languages.
 * and here, edit summary: There were at the time numerous academies in Israel at the time, there had not been one in Jerusalem since the early Byzantine period during the persecutions of the late 4th and early 5th centuries. There were two such schools in Sefad, one in Akko (one of the most prominent in the world at the time), and a few others in the land. It was just the first in 1000 years in Jerusalem.

Louis Ginzberg (JE) wrote that "he delivered sermons every other Sabbath in Hebrew." Our man added as well as during the week (every other = once every 2 weeks; very far from daily), and also in Arabic and Italian. And: "more than a thousand years after the extinction of the last academy in Palestine" - he changed it to "in Jerusalem".

With A. a change from copy-paste of Ginzberg text to paraphrase, or after the quoted passage; and B. with a proper source, this can be reintroduced, if proven correct. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 14:18, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

"The Bartenura"
I know that authors of major works in Judaism are commonly called by the tile of their best-known book, but what about in his case? Now it's in the lead, in bold and very visible. . Arminden (talk) 14:25, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Are both his Mishnah commentary and himself known as "The Bartenura"? If yes, this connection should be made clear. It has been changed in the past from referring to the former, to referring to the latter.
 * Would you use an upper-case T for "the", because I wouldn't, but what do I know.

Requested move 1 August 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: page moved as requested by Onel5969. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 21:44, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Obadiah Bartenura → Obadiah of Bertinoro – Per the statement at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 1:"This should be the name of the article, as it is the correct English/European name of the man. He was Italian after all. See both Jewish Encyclopedia (has him as 'Bertinoro, Obadiah', and more than half of the current article is copy-pasted from there!), and Encyclopaedia Britannica ('Obadiah of Bertinoro'). The only other English source in the refs also uses 'Obadiah of Bertinoro': Zinberg pp. 21, 22, 23, 201; for Hebrew alternative see p. 178 ('Ovadiyah Yare Me-Bartenura'), which in itself again proves that what we have now is neither nor. So either Obadiah of Bertinoro, or Hebrew, but then Ovadi(y)a(h) with a 'v', and Bartenura - but on English Wiki, for the (Modern) Hebrew version a redirect is perfectly sufficient. What we have now is just an incorrect mix. Arminden (talk) 12:50, 1 August 2022 (UTC)"...I am neutral. Steel1943  (talk) 18:38, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Courtesy ping. Steel1943  (talk) 18:40, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , hi (continuing discussion from previous page). Thanks. That's why I hate bureaucracy. It's a 2-step issue. The REDIR is in the way for a move, so why not start here first? Who can approve removing the redirect, and actually do it? Hi, sorry to bother, you were very helpful once in 2020. How can this be moved out of the way please? Thanks, Arminden (talk) 19:27, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See above at : our resident specialist in all matters Judaism, Davidbena, is in favour of the move. Arminden (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've read all the comments. Still not sure exactly what you what the correct article name to be.  If you would let me know, I'll see if I can do it.  If not, it'll need to go on Requested Moves.  Please ping me. Onel 5969  TT me 19:38, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Onel, thank you so much! It's always Obadiah of Bertinoro - see Britannica online, Jewish Encyclopedia, everybody who counts, Davidbena included :) The redirect stands in the way. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 21:11, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay - seems to be the way you requested.  Hope it is.  Onel 5969  TT me 21:41, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.