Talk:Occultism in Nazism/Archive 1

falsehoods
This article is based on falsehoods. Only Himmler was interested in mysticims. Hitler was not. Andries 21:36, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"It is known that Aliester Crowley and Gurjeff sought contact with Hitler..." Really, given that their names are not even spelled correctly? Cite please. -- The Anome 22:48, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Now removed from article:
 * It is known that Aliester Crowley and Gurjeff sought contact with Hitler, but it has never been confirmed if these mystics actually made contact with Hitler. Hitler would later go on to reject many German mystics, openly ridiculing them, particularly practicitioners of Freemasonry, Theosophy and Anthrosophy.

Can we have some cites for this please? -- The Anome 23:27, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What indications or proof is available about Hitler?
What indications or proof is available that Hitler was interested in the paranormal and mysticism? Knowledge of mysticism in My Kampf is neither a proof nor an indication to me because Hitler was an avid reader. Andries 14:36, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think you're missing a couple of things. That said, the Vril society is easily the most difficult to substantiate. Multiple resources mention it, but the information is often conflicting and/or from sources that aren't particularly reputable. I have only replicated that information that was mentioned in one or more sources. - Rjstreet 16:21, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * If you read about something, you likely had a reason for doing so
 * The only direct link mentioned in the article is in reference to the Vril Society
 * Last I checked, convincing you is not the purpose of this endeavor - the endeavor is to find the truth based on the means we have available; I encourage alternate or even conflicting prooftexts - I personally don't care so long as we have the most accurate information possible (which has to be based on research since the original participants are unavailble for interview)
 * This is a difficult topic as it is prone to conspiracy/krank theories, but the source cited matches well with what is already in the Wikipedia and other research and seems to represent a moderate viewpoint out of a large collection of material (most with agendas to advance - as is the case with most materials on either of the two topics in the article!)

Andries, I'm going to have to ask for arbitration if you do not cease making modifications wihthout prooftexts. - Rjstreet 16:34, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)


 * Rjstreet, sorry, what do you mean with prooftexts?

Documentation supporting a viewpoint or establishing the elements of a logical proof. - Rjstreet 16:51, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC) ~


 * Rjstreet, well, I have read most of Ian Kershaw's extensive and excellent biography of Hitler and he didn't mentions Hitler's mystical connection. According to Ockham's razor, lack of indication means that there was never any link. Andries 16:56, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Rjstreet, by the way, I didn't change anything that was you didn't mention yourself, apart from the primary activity of the Ahnenerbe, which I read on the German Wikipedia that was corrobated by the book I have read about the SS in the Heinz Hoehne "Der Orden unter dem Totenkopf: Die Geschichte der SS". I only changed the wording. Andries 17:08, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The article only attributes one membership to Hitler himself - and I admit that one seems shaky (as mentioned above), but nearly all sources mention the membership list. - Rjstreet 17:09, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)


 * Rjstreet, I won't edit the article again until I have checked it in the library tomorrow. Hope you are happy with that. Andries 17:14, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Several Objections to this articles
Andries 16:43, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * treatment of the Nazi party as a monolithic organization, please note that Nazis were individuals with individual opinions
 * unattributed beliefs: who believed what
 * classification of Freemasonry as mysticism

(I found this on the talk page of user:ChessPlayer) Deutsches Ahnenerbe
I see that you have an interest in Nazi-era history. Could you cast an eye over the Ahnenerbe article, which is an attempt to replace a stub which was largely based on fantasy with a more detailed article on this pathological but historically interesting organization. At the moment, the article needs more material on their influence on German academia, the expeditions to Tibet, Iran and so on, and more on the complicity of the medical and anthropological professions in murder as part of their "research". -- The Anome 10:16, 21 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I will look into it. There is a book on the expedition to Tibet: Himmler's Crusade : The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race by Christopher Hale. I haven't read it. There is also a scholarly work, very dry, called The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology: The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935 by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. It may have some related information; I long ago looked at, and do not remember well what it said. It is in my university library, and I can look at it if you like. I recall that contrary to what some think, Hitler himself was not into the occult at all, and didn't approve of Himmler's interest. Hitler thought it was nonsense, if my memory is correct. The article on Ahnenerbe looks good, by the way. ChessPlayer 11:16, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

I object to the adverb "ironically"
The adverb "ironically" in the sentence "Ironically, the Nazi party actively discouraged mystical secret socities and the links of the primary architect of the Nazi movement (Adolf Hitler) to mysticism are not clear to all." suggests a proven fact, which is not a proven fact. Let the reader himself decide without being pushed into a certain direction by this sugggestive and POV adverb. Andries 19:20, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * It is a proven fact that mysticism influenced the nazi party. I know you don't accept it (why not, btw?) but that doesn't make it not true. I have seen the evidence many times, and some of it is in the article. POV does not a fact make. Sam [Spade] 19:30, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Sam, how can you say that the evidence is overwhelming when there is no proof that Hitler himself was directly involved in mysticism? In fact, there is strong indication that he was not and that he even objected to mysticism, as per RJGreen's assertion about Mein Kampf. By the way, RJGreen's assertion about Hilter's remarks in Mein Kampf about Theosophy should be mentioned in the article, if they are a proven fact. The NSDAP had millions of members and naturally a few, esp. Himmler were involved in mysticism but that doesn't mean that mysticism had a signficant influence on Nazism. It was just Himmler's hobby. By the way, secret societies are not necessarily mystical. There were far more Christians than mystics in the Nazi party but that doesn't mean that the Nazis were a Christian party.


 * Kind regards, Andries 07:46, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Sam, if it is really true that the Nazi party was significantly influenced by mysticism then, I think, you are right that the word "Ironically" is okay there. But for the time being can it please be removed? Andries 19:46, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * OK. :) Sam [Spade] 19:49, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to German Wikipedia Thule Gesselschaft was not a mystical society
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule-Gesellschaft this article explicitly says that the Thule Gesellschaft was a secret but not mystical society apart from the use Rune signs. Andries 19:28, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * The rune signs are mystical tho, as is the swastika, and a number of other symbols they used. I sense there is some reason why germanic peoples dislike nazism being seen as non-christian mysticism? Sam [Spade] 19:46, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * and when I am reading the german version, I read it differently... I admit I am not a native german speaker, but "Für Anhänger eines nordischen Kultes hatte der Name mystische Bedeutung" is pretty obvious even to me... Sam [Spade] 19:49, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I have to admit that I overlooked that sentence. I was referring to another explicit statement in the article. So wird immer wieder behauptet, die TG hätte intern eine stark okkulte oder gar satanische Ausrichtung besessen. Jenseits einer gewissen Runen-Mystik kann dies aber keineswegs nachgewiesen oder belegt werden. translated, Always people assert that the Thule Gesellschaft would have a strong occult or even satanic message. Apart from a certain Rhune mysticism one can not by any means prove this." Andries 20:09, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Thats a bad sentance, failing to express the distinction between occult satanism and Odin woshipping Germanic mysticism, two very different subjects. I can see why they would confuse the two however, because many modern neo-nazi's (esp. in the black metal scene) have migrated from satanism to viking-pagan Odin woship. Sam [Spade] 20:12, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * See this also: "In der Theosophie (aus der sich die Ariosophie abgeleitet) ist es das Symbol für die Arier." (refering to the swastika) Sam [Spade] 20:12, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Dinter
Presumably the "Dinter" that was thrown out of the Nazi Party was Artur Dinter? -- Karada 00:36, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why mysticism?
I'm not well versed enough in specifics to put any of this into the article myself, but I'd like to propose a subject for your collective consideration. The Nazis were a political movement that based a lot of their appeal on being seen as an improvement upon and as a viable successor to the older political establishments of church and state. It was a revolution of sorts by the petit bourgeois against the old traditional order, and very much a violently contemptuous rejection of the legitimacy of that order. Famously, it made Jews and Judaism a scapegoat and rallying cry in its rise to power, but since it also largely rejected the various churches' political prerogatives, perhaps a large part of the pagan "Aryan" religiosity was a conscious attempt to paint what they were doing with some sort of religious legitimacy. It seems to me that the Nazis were mostly cynically exploiting heathenism in order to distract followers by providing them with a dramatic, exotic alternative to the old order. Fire Star 17:51, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Hi Firestar, there is a lot of truth in what you write, I believe. But that is an opinion, not a proven fact and can not be inserted in the article unless a good scholarly reference is found. I do not know of any mainstream scholarly author on Hitler or Nazis who holds the opinion that mysticism had a considerable influence on Nazism. That is, by the way, why I got somewhat upset when I first saw this article. On the other hand and amazingly, the Nazis legally followed the constitution of the Weimar republic till the very end. Probably because this was one of the bases of Hitler's legitimacy. I do not think that mysticism is the same as the attempt to create an alternative religion by the Nazis. It is different but related. Andries 18:13, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Cheers, Andries. I believe I recall some quotes from Hitler describing how he was going to use an emphasis on paganism and other disingenuous attitudes to hoodwink his people, but as I said, I don't have the references myself to back it up properly. I don't really have the personal inclination to spend enough time reading Hitler to find the info, either. As well as not providing much of a political context for Nazism, it seems this article doesn't differentiate between self-serving Madame Blavatsky style mysticism and "quietist" mysticism associated with some of the Taoist sages, Chan Buddhist teachers or some of the holier Christian saints, for example... Fire Star 22:05, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Just to interject, I take issue w your description of Madame Blavatsky (and especially theosophy in general, which could be implied) as "self serving". Have a read of the Theosophy article, or check out some theosophist literature, and I think you will find it far from self serving. A read of Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path might be helpful as well. Sam [Spade] 03:20, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Greetings Sam. But they don't do much, do they? You seem a decent fellow and you are indeed welcome to take issue with my description of Blavatsky (and by extension, Theosophy) as self-serving. My intent was to highlight some perceived differences between various kinds of mysticism that aren't really touched on in the present article, and perhaps I went too far. In my line of work I've had a lot of experience with "Left Hand" esotericists, I know quite a bit about them (more than they know themselves, I believe) and while I care about them and would like to help them, my personal opinion of their practises, borne out by that experience, is much lower than I've let on here, actually. I do realize that mine is a personal opinion and I'll not publish such in a Wikipedia article ever, being a big fan of npov, but a discussion page is a different thing, I hope. If not, let me know. Only time (or the end of time!) will tell us for sure if I am correct in my assessment of Theosophy. Cheers, Fire Star 05:00, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

WWII
My grandfather was a Nazi paratrooper, not SS but the paras were considered quasi-elite tier 2 types. He was a tough old stonecutter/ artisan who made mostly ornate public statues and tombstones. He was also in WWI before WWII. During that time, he wore various pendants to protect him, and he explained them as symbols from ancient germanic myths and legends. One was a symbol that the SS used and one was the rounded sawasdeeka / "swastika" (which to this day is a greeting in some eastern countries. He told us about how religion melted into racial theories about the german aryan archetype as a herioc figure. He even applied to be SS and couldn't make the cut because he was "too short".  I wish you could talk to him or my father if you want oral histories right from the horses mouth.  He gave all these pendants and later war medals to my dad, but my dad may have gotten rid of them.  To this day there is some sympathy mixed with shame in the hearts of germans- the french stuck it too hard to the germans at Versailles, and the germans were in such sad shape after WWI that they accepted the first hope that was offered to them- the new religion of nationalist socialism- Naziism.


 * Hey, great info, thanks! Would you like to form a user account? Sam [Spade] 19:25, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Difference between mysticism and pseudo religion
I think the article should explicitly state what we mean in this article with mysticism. I think the unresolved, low intensity dispute that I have with Sam Spade is mainly caused by a missing definition and different understanding of the word mysticism. I do think that Nazism had religious aspects, more or less as a replacement religion but that is not mysticism. Andries 10:56, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I also agree that our disagreement relates to the particulars of the word "mysticism", and that perhaps if we clarified (and perhaps even renamed the article to "Nazi religion" or some such?) we'd be much better off. What did the nazi's call their religion? I know its quite similar to odinism and pierces cosmotheism, but it would be fascinating to articulate its particulars. Sam [Spade] 18:05, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it is also a good idea to see how this article should relate to the one on Esoteric Hitlerism? The Mysticism in modern Neo-Nazism section should probably link to it, but I'm not familiar enough with the subject area to suggest a proper phrasing. Ray Dassen 16:08, 2004 Sep 26 (UTC)

Merger
This article and Esoteric Hitlerism have been merged to Nazi mysticism. Please bring future discussion to Talk:Nazi mysticism. [[User:Sam Spade|Thomas Jefferson for President]] 13:48, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)