Talk:Occupy Portland/Archive 1

Notability and deletion discussion
I've heard about occupy Portland but didn't know where or when until I came to Wikipedia. Occupy Portland has not yet happened, ergo, there is little more information than is currently posted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elliottworks (talk • contribs) 17:46, 4 October 2011‎ (UTC)


 * Ergo there should not be an article yet, or until there is the requisite coverage required by our notability guideline. Simply put, Wikipedia is not a bulletin board or meet-up site, that is what Facebook is for. Aboutmovies (talk) 04:50, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy Portland is the only one of the proliferating number of Occupy Wall Street-related movements that I'm aware of making extensive use of their city's civic wiki to organize.PortlandWiki Occupy Portland Their 3rd "General Assembly" just adjourned earlier this evening (Tuesday, 4 October 2011) and the "occupation" begins at noon on Thursday. Given the voluminous material they've already put out on their city's wiki,Category:Occupy Portland the heavily and publicly attended pre-actions that have already happened, and the fact the event kicks off in less than 48 hours, can we hold off on this article's proposed "execution"? --Davydog (talk) 05:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * As you will see on the proposed deletion message, the deletion will not occur until October 10, and even that can be avoided with the editing of the article. While the article should not have been created when it was, unless someone marks it for Speedy Deletion, it will stay in place beyond the announced date for the event. --Nat Gertler (talk) 06:01, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks NatGertler. I'll continue suggesting to the Occupy Portland folks that they contribute to this article in ways that strengthen it, and will continue trying to do my bit. --Davydog (talk) 18:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Occupy Portland folks should be discouraged from contributing to this, as they have a conflict of interest. You can review the Wikipedia guidelines on conflicts of interest here. --Nat Gertler (talk) 19:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's no problem with editing with a COI, it just needs to be done with care. The best way is to only use reliable secondary sources to report on it, rather than primary sources. tedder (talk) 19:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "COI editing is strongly discouraged." WP:COI --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hence my statement of "The best way is to only use reliable secondary sources to report on it, rather than primary sources." tedder (talk) 20:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You may think there's no problem, but even with using secondary sources, there are all sorts of matters of picking and choosing, of giving favorable elements inappropriate weight. Hence, COI editing is discouraged. If they want more information on dealing with their conflicts of interest, it is best that they go and read WP:COI. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, rather than discourage theoretical COI edits, (and note again that "strongly discouraged" does not equal "prohibited"), we should remind folks from the "Occupy" movement that just like the decision making at the protests, Wikipedia decision making is based on consensus and to honor community decisions made via edits from experienced editors and from discussion on this talk page. I think that's a lot more welcoming stance for the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" to a movement based on similar principles. I'm sure there are enough people watching this article that we can take care of any potential problems introduced by inexperienced, possibly COI Wikipedians. It would be nice if new folks who start out editing this article decided to stay and help in other areas, rather than be run off. WP:BITE and all that. Valfontis (talk) 21:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you do not think that the WP:COI policy should discourage such edits, then the place to address that policy is on that talk page, and other discussion areas relevant to setting policy and guidelines. If you want to reword my suggestion that rather than discouraging folks from doing COI edits, he should simply not encourage them to do so (as was his apparent plan), fine. And if he wants to encourage them to contribute to Wikipedia in general, great! But specifically encouraging people to start by doing edits that are discouraged by WP:COI is not a good way to launch new users, it's a good way to set them up for feeling bitten. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball; many articles are created in advance of being notable (examples: politicians who are running for office, garage bands). This article might be better in the article incubator until it happens or can be backed up with reliable sources to meet WP:GNG. tedder (talk) 19:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Images
Be on the lookout for images that can be uploaded to Commons/WP. I just got back from the protest, which is still going on at Pioneer Courthouse Square, and will try to upload them as soon as possible. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * So, I made some new sections, because I wanted to talk about images. I like the one with the motorcycles, and I also like that guy's dreadlocks in the other image. But, we should use the best ones, only I'm not sure which ones and why.  Which ones do people like and why? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * My favorite is still the one with the cops, but I'm worried it makes it seem like there was conflict between demonstrators and police when there wasn't. I made it a neutral sound caption when I added that image, but I wonder if anyone else thinks it may be NPOV? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

-- Another Believer ( Talk ) 04:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.flickr.com/search/?l=4&w=all&q=Occupy+Portland&m=text "Creative Commons-licensed content requiring attribution"

Day 2
If anyone wanders by City Hall today, try to take some images of the crowd still gathered there today (10/7). -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Others
These are great! Thanks for uploading. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I just uploaded a bunch from Flickr using Bryan's upload tool. Up to 62 images in the Commons category. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, great job! Also worth noting, it's impressive you could find different file names for all those images.  Jsayre64   (talk)  00:19, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I need to get over to the occupy site and take additional pictures, preferably showing internal structure and organization (library, cafe, medic center, etc.). Just a few more images (to surpass Occupy Seattle) and Occupy Portland will be the most-photographed Occupy event other than Occupy Wall Street. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 00:33, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone know how to upload a free map (OpenStreet?) to illustrate the locations of Lownsdale, Chapman, possibly the route of the first march, etc? I got the idea from the Occupy Oakland article. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 05:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Clever idea! Since OpenStreetMap is licensed CC-BY-SA-2.0, they can be uploaded to Commons. I just figured out how to download a map. For example, to download this one of downtown Portland, click "Export" at the top of the page and save it in PNG format (best file format for maps, I've heard). Jsayre64   (talk)  01:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, when I went to San Francisco to work on a project for the Wikimedia Foundation I met someone pretty involved with the OpenStreetMap project. I am surprised maps are not used much more frequently. I can think of many ways they can be used on Wikipedia. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 04:02, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ Uploaded and added map to article. Jsayre64   (talk)  16:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Structure
-- Another Believer ( Talk ) 02:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * infobox? (the civil conflict template is used for protests)
 * Background
 * Preparations
 * meetings leading up protest
 * preparations by city officials, Portland Police
 * statement from Sam Adams; warning from Business Alliance
 * details Protest
 * Supporters


 * So, I had an OPB reference and sentence in there, and it was removed. I'm confused as to why. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the link to the above section. Was trying to organize sections and structure. Happy to re-add content/ref. Working on article expansion (feel free to jump in!) -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 03:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

(redent) While I agree it's true, I'm concerned that peaceful protest is not NPOV. Do we have a ref? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have seen sources noting organizers' plans for a peaceful protest as well as news outlets reports that the rally was peaceful (see KPTV, a source also incorporated into the article). I am currently in the process of taking a single source and extracting as much information from it as possible, then moving on to the next. I think I am done for the night, but I look forward to expanding the article further and to seeing other contributor's contributions (redundant)... -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 04:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Basically, it is sourceable, which is good enough for me. Speaking of chatty, hey remember that time we were in SF to help the WMF?  That was pretty cool. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:08, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed! We need to bug a certain someone for another opportunity! -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 04:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and included a Preparations section, as there was a lot of activity and planning leading up to the event. This can include meetings lead by organizers, how city officials attempted to cooperate with organizers and plan to control the rally, how local businesses prepared, etc. Perhaps TriMet prepared somehow? The Background section should provide context about how Occupy Portland is part of the Occupy Wall Street movement and how that began. Feel free to share thoughts if you disagree or have other suggestions. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

tagged as controversial
Someone placed a tag on this talk page that the article is controversial, and that the content may be in dispute. However, I have seen no sign of editing conflicts, no edit wars have broken out. Things get corrected, yes, but that's a basic part of the system, and not a sign that it's veering off. People may have different feelings about the rightness of the cause of the protest, but this is an article discussing the protest; it's not an article on, say "corporate greed" or somesuch, there aren't accusations that the Portland Occupiers were eating live babies or anything. As such, I think this tag is unneeded at this juncture and, to the degree that it discourages active involvement based on a false premise, a bad thing, and would like to remove it. (And I'm saying this as the guy who prodded the article for deletion.) Alternate viewpoints? --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not particularly bothered by the tag, but at the same time I am not exactly sure when it is meant to be used. I agree with you that there have not been any major edit conflicts/wars, but some people might find the subject of the article somewhat controversial. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:36, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Portland biggest Occupy event yet?
This article from yesterday purports that Occupy Portland is the "largest 'Occupy' event to date". Is that right? The article for the NYC protest indicates that 15000 people participated, Portland estimates are around 10000 though. Am I missing something or should this be added to the article? &mdash;SW&mdash; confer 23:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Template
Template:"Occupy" protests displays the South Park Blocks as the location of the Portland protest. This is incorrect, right? I recall the rally moving from the Burnside Bridge along Waterfront Park and into Pioneer Courthouse Square, with the encampment set up at the plazas across from City Hall. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Rename
I would propose renaming this article to "Occupy Portland (Oregon)", as there is also an Occupy protest going on in Portland, Maine, which (incidentally) was attacked with an explosive device and may warrant having its own article.74.78.170.19 (talk) 17:10, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with the rename assuming an article is created for Portland, Maine. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, forget my suggestion; doing some other reading in an attempt to create such an article, they mostly call themselves "Occupy Maine". 74.78.170.19 (talk) 09:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Oct. 26
An additional rally is scheduled for Oct. 26. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Oct. 28
Pretty large crowd currently gathered at Pioneer Courthouse Square. Pink Martini is performing, local community leaders are speaking. Unfortunately, I did not have my camera on me... hopefully others will upload. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

see also/list of occupy sites
I've removed the list of occupy sites from the See Also section again. I'm unsure why it keeps getting added, as it's redundant to the content in Template:"Occupy" protests.
 * The See also sections (in many of the Occupy articles) keep getting beefed up unnecessarily despite attempts to keep them simplified. I am now moving the Portal bars down to the bottom of Oregon-related Occupy articles. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I think the Occupy Portland showdown article should be merged to this article. No reason the main Occupy Portland article cannot be expanded to accommodate this information. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're talking about Occupy Portland showdown? Yeah, it should be speedy merged. tedder (talk) 18:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That is the correct article being discussed. I added a merge template to the top of the article. Speedy merged or deleted. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:09, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree. This will never survive as its own article.  &mdash;SW&mdash; spill the beans 21:51, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Merge Occupy Portland showdown into this article per above comments. There's no reason we need a separate article for the eviction. This article would be more complete if it contained all the details the smaller one currently has. Jsayre64   (talk)  02:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I boldly merged this back to the main article. tedder (talk) 04:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, tedder! -- Another Believer  ( Talk ) 04:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

changes to the finale
I made some slight adjustments to the final statement of how the parks were shut down. I was there when it happened, I live literally 3 blocks from the site in the Cyan building. When the protestors went out to march on Sunday, the city came in with fences behind them and blocked off the parks. The people in the park still were removed peacefully. There was no violence on Sunday, as has been misreported by several wiki sites. Again, I was there; I watched it happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.252.249.145 (talk) 19:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

i went and altered the information on the eviction. i felt it was too pro occupy and felt it should be neutral. the main point and much of it is still intact. i added that not all those that gathered that night were support of occupy. i also altered a few of the word choices. any biased statements makes it hard for people to create their own opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.103.168.4 (talk) 21:30, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

question about police citations
The repeating of the city/police assertions blankly as a 'rise in crime' or costs of the protest seem to not meet the neutral tone or proper academic background. Arresting 32 people for subjective misdemeanors is a rise in crime? Compared to what? This was independently verified by any source not just quoting a police or city official? Does that really meet the WP? Same for the city cost; what independent measure? Shouldn't it be phrased in a neutral manner, such as 'the city estimated it spent x amount related to' not a pejorative 'the protest cost the city x'? 67.170.188.149 (talk) 07:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

resource
from Capitalism vs. the Climate; What the right gets - and the left doesn't - about the revolutionary power of climate change. by Naomi Klein November 9, 2011. This article appeared in the November 28, 2011 edition of The Nation (pages 11-21 in print).

141.218.36.152 (talk) 21:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Define ecological consciousness, please. 99.181.142.144 (talk) 07:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Made easier to read. 99.181.134.134 (talk) 05:49, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd guess ecological consciousness raising would be a "synonym". 99.181.131.196 (talk) 01:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for Additional Information
Hello, I am new to this site. First of all, I want to say how impressed I am with this opportunity to contribute to such a valuable resource. I have been watching Occupy Portland since its beginning, and low and behold, it was on this page that I learned the most useful information. Today, I am writing to request additional information. Recently, OP conducted one or two protests on police brutality. I learned from the news that Mayor Sam Adams scheduled a meeting to discuss police brutality. I'd like more information on this topic. Please include the number of arrests, video of police brutality during protest, and a summary of the meeting scheduled by the mayor. Has OP raised awareness to police brutality? Have any significant changes in policy policy or procedure been made? Thank you for making this world a better place with Wikipedia. Sincerely, Catherine Sadil (talk) 16:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)CASadil

F29
Reminder re: F29 (additional sources needed for detail): -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/02/occupy_portland_f29_march_to_p.html

Rtnews template
I've removed the Russia Today news template from the page, as it had raised concern because it pointed to a single trending news page, rather than a selection of trend pages, and after discussion in the appropriate places, it's easier to remove it than it is to add lots of other trend pages, as I don't know of any (don't have time to look). If there are any comments, concerns, or suggestions please reply on my talkpage, as I don't watch this page. Penyulap  ☏  03:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Update Required
Despite the abolishment of the Occupy Portland General Assembly in 2013 (according to this article) and the lead section's past tense setting, this article's infobox indicates that Occupy Portland continues today. The Occupy Movement article also states that Occupy Portland never ended, claiming that it is the only remaining "occupation" in America. Whatever the reality, both articles must reflect that Occupy Portland is no longer a large-scale protest, if a protest at all. --(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC))