Talk:Octopussy and The Living Daylights

Order
Why is "The Living Daylights" listed before "The Property of a Lady"? In my copy of the book, the order is "Octopussy", "The Property of a Lady", "The Living Daylights", and finally "007 in New York". Shouldn't the stories be listed in this order in the article? Emperor001 (talk) 23:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * When the book was first published in 1966, it contained only Octopussy and The Living Daylights (hence the title). "Property of a Lady" and "007 in NY" were not added until later editions and therefore should be listed after "Daylights". The article at one point made this distinction clear - perhaps it's been made less clear in subsequent edits? 23skidoo (talk) 01:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We can't call it "usual order" because that implies the 1966 edition was unusual. The order of the stories is only as of the 2002 edition that includes 007 in New York. 23skidoo (talk) 15:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The events of "The Property of a Lady" takes place in June of 1961 (Tuesday, June 20th is the day of the auction) which would proceed the events of The Spy Who Loved Me since the events in The Spy Who Loves Me" takes place on Friday, October 13th, which occured in 1961.

We know that Bond was operating in North America in "The Spy who Loved Me" as part of Operation Bedlum. Therefore the events of "Thunderball" would have taken place probably in June of 1960 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perdogg (talk • contribs) 14:27, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Uppercase in "The"

 * In "Octopussy and The Living Daylights", the capital T in "The" is because this title is the titles of two of the book's component stories ("Octopussy" and "The Living Daylights"), strung together. See User talk:Anthony Appleyard. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:45, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * How is the capitalization treated by the publisher in the first edition? That should be the guide. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It has nothing to do with it. The format used by publishers may vary wildly from our MoS, which takes precedence. (Look at the image in the infobox, for example: it's in capitals). - SchroCat (talk) 15:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Octopussy "not previously published" is incorrect
The intro says Octopussy was not previously published, but this is incorrect. Octopussy was serialized in Playboy before the book came out. This page gives a date of March 1966; and the CommanderBond.net website, one of the major fansites, also confirms that Playboy published the story first. Since this is GA I know an IP going in and making changes will be reverted automatically, so someone else will need to make the correction. There are any number of Playboy magazine indexes online that can be examined to confirm the dates. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Just goes to show you shouldn't believe or trust the fansites then. It was serialised in the Daily Express way before Playboy: I've corrected, with supporting citation. - SchroCat (talk) 15:43, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Good catch; I wasn't aware of the Daily Express publication. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 19:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (formerly 70; my IP changed)

TV script?
It has been said that several of Ian Fleming's short stories in For Your Eyes Only were from an aborted 1959 CBS James Bond television show. Was The Living Daylights one of these? Also have any of the teleplay ideas from Fleming ever turned up anywhere?Foofbun (talk) 00:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Doubtful. It's possible they were, but by the time they were written in 1962-63, Fleming had been sued to his knees over using Thunderball's script for the basis of a novel. He probably wouldn't want to go anywhere near a TV series. The only known teleplay ideas that have turned up for certain are those in For Your Eyes Only, though he was a consultant when The Man from UNCLE was being developed (he gave them the character name Napoleon Solo). 68.146.70.124 (talk) 19:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Adaptations section
As before, I'm hesitant to add anything to a GA as an IP, but I believe it's been stated in a few places that the character name Solange from the 2006 version of Casino Royale was taken from the 007 in New York story. Plus, the epilogue of the Quantum of Solace film - Bond informing an agent that her boyfriend is an enemy agent - is identical to the plot of the short story. While the Solange one could be debated, adding Quantum of Solace to the list appears to be pretty cut and dried. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please find a reliable source to support it and it can go in. -SchroCat (talk) 19:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the article is in error when it says that a version of the auction from Property of a Lady was done in The Living Daylights with Timothy Dalton, 1987. The film version of the auction was definitely Roger Moore in the movie Octopussy, from 1983. Somebody please fix this for us, I am reluctant to do so much editing myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.47.146.66 (talk) 15:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It doesn't say that at all. It clearly says the auction is in Octopussy with Moore, and that the plot of "The Living Daylights" short story was used within the film of the same name with Dalton. - SchroCat (talk) 15:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I stand Corrected. I didn't read carefully enough. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.47.146.66 (talk) 15:35, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Octopussy plot description not accurate
The conclusion of the section describing Octopussy is that Smythe committed suicide but it is quite clear from the plot of the book that Smythe gets accidentally stung whilst trying to catch the Scorpionfish to feed to Octopussy, and he then drowns as Octopussy drags him under the water.

Indigodelta (talk) 06:06, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The addition is a WP:PLOTBLOAT, and what we have is accurate enough for a summary. We don't aim to regurgitate the entire storyline in plot summaries, but provide a brief essence, which is what we've done here. - SchroCat (talk) 07:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I take your point about Plot Bloat for what is only a summary, but in addition to providing more plot details I also corrected a statement that was not accurate. Smythe did not commit suicide and was stung accidentally.  I am happy to leave the extra plot details out, but not the bit about his death, which changes his character completely.  Can you please supply a reference which supports your theory that he committed suicide? Indigodelta (talk) 02:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello, Indigodelta (talk). You are quite right to respond for the sake of your dignity. We have to be very careful about that aspect of ourselves when reading blank editing cancellations from Wikipedia editors. Sheer experience has taught me to flutter lightly over their words. You (we) did your (our) best and these editors have got heavier weights on their shoulders and their heads than we can or would want to imagine.


 * "Suicide", as a word in this short story, is used as mentally voiced in Bond's thinking in an assumption upon Smythe's death when learning of it, which is reported in the local Jamaican newspaper as "found drowned". That phrase (indeed were his name to have been Brown the phrase would have been "Brown found drowned") is entered into Bond's report as he closes the "bulky" file on Smythe and the story closes.


 * As my memory would serve me Bond informs Smythe that it would be about a week before somebody would be sent out (to Jamaica) to bring him home. Bond leaves Smythe there then to Smythe's own devices.


 * Ian Fleming makes no mention of a careless "death wish" in Smythe's apparatus of thinking, but it is fair enough to allow Wikipedia to have it's way with Smythe's suicide; as if Captain Lawrence "Titus" Oates – see >>Lawrence Oates<< – was indeed "just going outside", a careless "death wish" found only to be somewhere in the periphy of the works of human thinking. --Laurencebeck (talk) 03:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above must be corrected by me! . . . A "death wish" was already a component to Smythe's character. Within the second page of this short story Smythe's state is described:
 * "He was still a fine figure of a man, and it was a mystery to his friends and neighbors why, in defiance of the two ounces of whisky and ten cigarettes a day to which his doctor had rationed him, he persisted in smoking like a chimney and going to bed drunk, if amiably drunk, every night. The truth of the matter was that Dexter Smythe had arrived at the frontier of the death-wish…"
 * Bond's visit was to confront with his war-time errors a Smythe described as that.


 * "Octopussy" begins with the early part of the very dive within which Smythe meets his dramatic end. His life on Jamaica and Bond's visit the morning of the dive and his wartime experiences are related in neatly packed reversions in time. Smythe wished to achieve something for the science of aquatic life for a professor at a scientific institute on Jamaica. The experiment in marine life behaviour might be dangerous and if mortally injured, "It would be rather like playing Russian roulette, and at the same five-to-one odds. It might be quick, a whimsical way out of his troubles! "


 * But to finally embark on the venture with the five-to-one odds does not make a conventional suicide. Like the Scott's adventure to the South Pole where five men perished, are we to say it was suicide by all souls?


 * Smythe was willing to risk a "whimsical way out of his troubles" for the scientific satisfaction of a marine life understanding.


 * There was, though, by his reckoning, five chances in six he would succeed. And there is no evidence in the writing he lessened those odds. --Laurencebeck (talk) 07:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The previous contribution by SchroCat (talk) follows here:


 * It's not my "theory": see the sources:


 * Chancellor, Henry (2005). James Bond: The Man and His World. p. 240
 * Chapman, James (2009). Licence to Thrill: A Cultural History of the James Bond Films. p. 215


 * One is an academic work; one an official book licenced by Ian Fleming Publications, the offcial licence holders for Fleming's literary work. - SchroCat (talk) 05:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The text itself is enough recourse for authority. "Guilt" I do not believe is in the text although "frontier of the death wish" is. Suicide is not within Smythe's actions. The story is a finessing of time schemes to suit a mere notion of an idea for a piece of writing. And good it is too. --Laurencebeck (talk) 06:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * People can consult a Wikipedia page at any time in any numbers to find out what something is about. It is my first reference for anything on any subject. I really have to say here, before any further editing of the "Octopussy" summary, that the summary is misleading ( guilt and suicide – apart from Bond's "after the fact" thinking – are really not part of Fleming's input ) and gives no place names, either Jamaica, or Europe. Thanks . . --Laurencebeck (talk) 08:52, 8 August 2015 (UTC)