Talk:Oder/Archive 4

name discussion
Except that we aren't listing things only under their local names. The name of the river in English-language usage is 'Oder', just as the name of the Fraenken in English-language usage is 'Franconian'. --MichaelTinkler

Not true. Not lately. I guess it has to do with the end of the cold war, and "political correctness". German nomenclature for Polish cities, rivers, mountains and provinces is (slowly) being replaced by the Polish (sometimes misspelled) names. Encyclopedia's, atlases, school books, CIA factbook etc. I see the name "Oder" only in some magazines, websites, and tourist maps. They will go away, just give it time. Odra starts in Czechy, flows through the middle of Poland, and only in it's small fragment constitutes the border between Germany and Poland. That's why the original Slavic name is chosen for the "official" engllish language version.

SC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Space Cadet (talk • contribs) 6 November 2002

English name
Wikipedia is an English language encyclopedia. As such the names should be the English language names without regard to local political sensitivities. Here "Oder" is the correct conventional name in accordance with NIMA: http://www.nima.mil/gns/html/index.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eclecticology (talk • contribs) 7 November 2002

That's fine! Of course, the so called "correct" conventional English names change in time. In the fifties 80% Polish rivers, towns, villages, provinces, districts, mountains, lakes etc. used the German translations as the "correct conventional English names". No wonder - it was the time of Cold War and English speaking countries were supporting their German allies in their absurd, ludicrous claims. I reverted "Oder" to "Odra" based on Encyclopaedia Britannica 2001. But I can sit down and wait until the NIMA people wake up and proclaim something else as "conventional" and "correct". Hope it won't be too long. Space Cadet -- Finally! Slavonic river back to Slavonic name! Mazw Tov! 167.83.96.20 13:38 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

(in continuation of the discussion on Taw's talk page:)

I hope we will be able to find a compromise in this dispute. One way is to continue the edit wars and change the title of this article alternately from Oder to Odra and vice versa. The better way is to find a compromise, and this is a proposal:


 * 1) The rivers Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa are placed where they are now: under their Polish names Odra and Nysa, because the larger portions of these rivers are on Polish territory.
 * 2) In articles about regions and towns on the German side of Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa it is allowed to use the German form of the name: Frankfurt/Oder does not have to become Frankfurt/Odra.
 * 3) The German-Polish border is the Oder-Neisse line and not the Odra-Nysa line, because the latter term is virtually unknown in English language.
 * 4) In every article both names have to be stated, e.g. in a form "... is located on the Odra (Oder)". Remember that the purpose of an encyclopedia is also to inform those readers who do not know the name "Odra".
 * 5) Whenever someone changes one of these river names not in accordance with these rules, we correct it quietly and politely without accusing the editor of bad intentions.

Please say, what you think about this compromise. But please don't return to your maximum demands. Don't tell me anything about an "original" or "true" or "only valid" name. If there was an original name of the Oder river, it has been used in stone age times and is now forgotten. There are two valid names. Originally I was in favour of using "Oder" and "Neisse"; as you can see, I largely accomodate to the demands of the Odra advocates.

I hope, Ed Poor won't mind, if I quote him here:


 * I think we should rise above this controversy as much as we can:
 * Acknowledge the _existence_ of alternate names.
 * Avoid any pronouncement that either alternative is the "right" one.
 * Where controversy is heated, describe it in the article, e.g., "German historian Adolf Hamburger calls this village Frankfort, while Polish geographer Jerzy Polska call it Phrangforcky." [No, I don't mind :-] --Uncle Ed 19:33 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)

Now I hope that a fair discussion can start about this subject; afterwards we may begin to change all relating articles in accordance with this or another compromise. -- Cordyph 18:22 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * btw, the relevant policy page is naming conventions (use English)

- I'm in for this compromise. In other words - "yes!" on points 1 through 5. Probably, point number 3 is the hardest to agree with. Although I find "Phrangforcky" as highly offensive. If You don't know Polish language, make up a country for your "exempli gratia". BTW, in Polish language "Frankfurt" is "Frankfurt", but if Poland ever gets their lands west of Odra back, the name will probably change to "Frankowo", "Frankiele", "Franciszki", or it won't change at all - remember that a lot of official Polish names keep their original, historical, german spelling (e.g. Grunwald, Westerplatte). Space Cadet 13:49 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)


 * To Ed Poor: Concerning "Adolf Hamburger": It is very, very poor that Adolf is the only German first name you seem to know (since 1945 no German child has been given this name any more). Germans will react similar on your little distastefull joke like Poles will do on your "Phrankforcky"-joke (Or Muslims on calling them all muslim extremists and Bin-Laden-supporters (oh, just kidding...)). -- anonymous


 * That's great, that you are in. And be forbearing with Ed Poor; his spelling of the German name is wrong as well (Frankfurt, not Frankfort). Then good luck for your fight for a Poland from the Rhine to the Ural (or so), and please help in translating this compromise into action. -- Cordyph 14:04 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

First, putting alternative form everywhere is OK. Frankfurt an der Oder (Frankfurt nad Odr&#261;) is proper German name and nobody's going to change that. On the other hand, if translated to English, it would be "Frankfurt upon Odra". Anyway, when discussing German side - as long as form "Odra" is also given, using German form as primary name it's OK for me.

I do not agree with point 3 - these rivers are Odra and Nysa &#321;u&#380;ycka, and that's how this article should be called. English historians had 55 years to adapt to this fact. I think it's enough. Taw 15:33 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)


 * So you still don't accept, that rivers may bear more than one name? Stating "these rivers are Odra and Nysa &#321;u&#380;ycka" does not help. This is not a fact, but just a point of view. I agreed to place Oder and Neisse under their Polish names. In my opinion it is fair, that you agree to something difficult as well. This compromise does not have to last hundred years. One or two years later we may have a look again, if the name has changed in English language. If the name "Odra-Nysa line" is accepted then, we can move the article as well. In addition I agree to state the additional name "Odra-Nysa line" in every occurrence of Oder-Neisse line (but of course only once in an article). Please remember, that while Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa are largely Polish rivers, the Oder-Neisse line is the common German-Polish border, so usage of the German term is not absolutely absurd. Or do you agree with Space Cadet, that the lands west of the river are to be regained by Poland? (I've taken that for a joke, and I hope, that I was not wrong.) -- Cordyph 15:53 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

--- Yes, it was a joke, at least for the time being ;). Taw!, it hasn't been 55 years, rather more like 13 years. Remember - the Cold War ended just recently and before that the so called "official English nomenclature" was in total support of whatever ludicrous and absurd claims their West German allies were voicing. Look at the atlas from the sixties: Oder, Weichsel, Danzig, Stettin, Stolp, Konitz, Kattowitz, Breslau, Koenigshutte, Allenstein, Posen, Bromberg, Braunsberg, Heilsberg and then Ostpreussen with a little note - "currently under Polish administration". I think the "official English nomenclature" has gone a long way since then. So they still tend to stick to the stupid "Oder-Neisse Line" - oh'well - can't have it all, I guess. Let's just wait. Give them some more time. And the five points they asking for are really a step towards compromise. I'm willing to go with it, although I know as well as You that it's not what common sense and history dictates. Pozdrowienia! Space Cadet 14:08 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC) --- The rivers must go under their usual English names, according to Wikipedia conventions. The fact that most of the Oder is in Poland is irrelevant. (For comparison, all of Warsaw is in Poland, but we still have the article under its English name.) --Zundark 15:34 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)


 * Hello Zundark. These rivers appear to bear more than one English name. A Google search for "Odra river" has 2,240 results. So I think, the above compromise is in full accordance with Wikipedia policy. We had a lot of problems here because of this dispute, so I beg you not to move the article. -- Cordyph 15:44 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)


 * The problems here were caused by Taw. I'm not going to move the page, but it has the wrong name and needs to be moved. --Zundark 15:59 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

Here's a new proposal for a compromise:

Instead of a REDIRECT from Oder, write a short paragraph at Oder saying:


 * Oder is the German name for the Odra River.

We might even try to characterize the controversy. For example, if it's just a matter of the sound or familiarity of the word, say:


 * Poles prefer to call this river Odra, while Germans prefer to call it Oder

Or if there's a political purpose fueling the controversy, then describe that. Here's a purely imaginary example.


 * German nationalists such as Heinrich Furor maintain that the Oder is, was, and should always be the rightful property of Germany; thus, they insist that the "correct" name of the river is Oder. Polish nationists such as Lukasz Szewinski insist that the river was originally Polish and that the "wholly unwarranted theft" of the river should not be recognized by geographers; thus, they insist that the "correct" name of the river is Odra.

Just an idea... --Uncle Ed 15:53 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

Hi Ed, thanks for contributing to this discussion. The conflict is mainly not between Polish and German nationalists. The Wikipedians still arguing for a placement under "Oder" are from England or the US and fear, that we undermine Wikipedia policy. I stated above, that this compromise is IMO in full accordance with our naming conventions. I don't think, that there are many German nationalists claiming, that "the Oder should always be the rightful property of Germany" - maybe some extremist muddle-heads, but not that many. Before starting to contribute articles about German regions on that lousy river (sorry, but I am about to become allergic to hearing that river's name ;->), I didn't even know, that there is such a dispute about the name. So, please, could we all go back to work, and leave things as they are now? You all would be doing me a great favour. Sigh! -- Cordyph 16:22 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

On second thought, how about "a river that starts in the Czech Republic, flows through Poland, and then along the German-Polish border, emptying into the Baltic Sea" called variously Oder or Odra? --Uncle Ed

Yes, that's fine. But we still need a title. And that should be Odra. (Isn't it somewhat ironical, that I am the one fighting for a title, that I originally disagreed with? Space Cadet will be proud of me ;->) I repeat, that "Odra River" has many results in Google, almost as many as "Oder River", so it is a valid English Language term meeting our conventions. -- Cordyph 16:32 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

Answering Cordyph from above:

I have no opinion on the matter whatsoever and only want WikiPeace. Feel free to revert my changes and/or tell me to butt out. --Uncle Ed 16:24 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

I understand, Ed, and I appreciate your involvement. My words were meant as a joke. I did not intend to sound rudely. Sorry for that. -- Cordyph 16:32 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC) - I want Wiki Peace more than anything else, also. Yes Cordyph, your position on the issue and your ability to see things objectively, win my full admiration and fill my heart with pride. Mean it. Let's redirect "Odra-Nysa Line" to "Oder-Neisse Line" and end this struggle. Dear Uncle Ed, I like your ideas and your input. Let's use them. Humble request, though: Please allow me to correct spelling in your "Polish sounding" names. Your examples and illustrations are great and they make an excellent point. However, every Polish reader, upon seeing "Phrangforcky" or "Shevitzky", will have a strong urge to strangle you with bare hands (that's not your intention, is it?), rather than to reflect upon the depths of Your insight. I already took the liberty of changing "Luka Shevitzky" without your consent. Hope it's OK. Gotta run, guys! Look forward to to finally see agreement on this stupid river. (I'm slowly developing an allergy to it's names, also!) Take care, you all. Space Cadet


 * I can't imagine why you'd fear I might take offense at your changing a purely imaginary example; it's much more breath-takingly realistic and also saves me from being strangled. (I'm all choked up at your kindness ;-) --Uncle Ed 18:09 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)~


 * Searched the web for Oder (English pages only): Results: 382 000 1

Searched the web for Odra (English pages only): Results: 13 200 2

- I did just have a look. But it was You(!), who changed those names to Polish versions last week. I checked the history (versionen). You also changed all the names in Kaliningrad Oblast to the Russian versions (including Koenigsberg to Kaliningrad, Trakhenen to Yasnaya Polana and so on). You also forgot to leave your name. Who are you, and who do you work for? Names, contacts, network!!! ;) I don't see anything wrong in the German Wikipedia calling Wroclaw - Breslau, Gdansk - Danzig, Szczecin - Stettin etc. Especially since the Polish Wiki still calls Leipzig - Lipsk, Bremen - Brema, Dresden - Drezno, Luebeck - Lubeka and Bautzen - Budziszyn. Forgive me for being overly suspicious. I'm not saying I don't trust you and I'm not saying I do. ...But I don't! Space Cadet 14:14 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)


 * Hey Space Cadet! Just don't get hysteric! Probably some little green men from space are trying to manipulate global policy via wiki!!! ;)

-- I knew it, I just knew it! Space Cadet 04:51 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

I reverted the redirects as explained on the very top of the page. Apologies to Taw, WOjpob, SC, et. al., but it doesn't matter why English speakers call things by their German, rather than Slavic, names. It only matters for ease of use that they do. The article as it is now makes it clear that the duality of names is becoming more common, but it is doubtful that this is something that will be replaced entirely -- or at least not for several generations.

This is markedly different rom cases like Gdansk, where many know that I fought long and hard to keep the article from being Danzig. In that case, the official English language (or at least American English -- don't go there) is Gdansk -- because the city is presently located in Poland. The Oder or Odra is not. It runs through several countries. Context is important. JHK -- I'm OK with it. Space Cadet 15:32 18 Jun 2003 (UTC) --

Nysa

 * Does it mean that the five point compromise proposed at the top of this page is no longer valid?


 * Anyway, I need some admin to correct the confusing situation with Nysa/Neisse/Lusatian Neisse/Nysa, Poland. I tried to clean it up myself but got stuck due to some software problems. Anyway, I propose the following solution: Nysa (disambiguation), Nysa and Neisse should be merged into either Neisse (disambiguation) or Nysa (disambiguation), depending on the English names of the place/phenomena listed.


 * Then, the Nysa, Poland should be moved to Nysa as it is the only place on earth to bear that name without any adjectives. Finally, disambiguation notices should be placed on all related pages, linking to both Neisse (disambiguation) and Nysa (disambiguation) at the top of all pages, similarily to the Gdansk article (For alternative meanings of Gdansk and Danzig, see Gdansk (disambiguation) and Danzig (disambiguation). How about that? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 09:58, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)