Talk:Odinic Rite

Deletion Debate
For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Votes for deletion/Odinic Rite

Speedy Deletion
Hi,

I created the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odinic_Rite in relation to the Asatru entry but am getting the message that it may be speedily deleted. Why is this? With the Odinic Rite being the worlds longest running Odinist organisation I feel it should have an entry.

Thanks,

Fjorn.


 * Are they really "the worlds longest running Odinist organisation"? When was the organisation founded? // Liftarn

the article reads like an advert.


 * (a) both of you please remember to sign your comments with ~
 * (b) Yes, the article reads like an advert; rather than listing it for speedy deletion, why not stubbify it so it can be expanded in an NPOV fashion. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 19:37, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Liftarn, That is actually one facts this is not disputed. The article is looking better now and I seriously did not mean for it to look like an advert, please see the votes here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Odinic_Rite Like I said, I am getting the specific data to make an article worthy of Wikipedia. Fjorn Plus, along with the possitive comments made in the voting section I have also had them in my personal "talk" area.

UPDATE for you Liftarn, although very brief: The 6 most well known modern day revivers of Odinism / Asatru are Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson, Stephen A. McNallen, Valgard Murray, Heimgest, E. Max Hyatt/Edred Wodanson and Alexander Rudd Mills. Stephen A. McNalllen is one of the founders of Modern day Asatru/Odinism. He formed the Afastru Folk Assembly in 1996 after disolving the Asatru FREE Assembly from 1976 to 1987 and having a break. He offers GREAT wirings. Valgard Murray is also a similar kind o f person, setting up the Asatru Alliance in 1988, of course he had a small kindred of his own in 1976 and affiliated with the AFA. Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson formed the Ásatráarfélagið (Asatru Sect) in Iceland and got it legally recognised although it is not internationall like the AFA and the AFA and did have break-ups. Then their is Heimgest of the Odinic Rite who was involved from the early days in the OR and was officially made director. The OR has been continious from 1973 when it was called the Committee for the Restoration of the Odinic Rite / Odinist Committee with just a name changed when the Committee felt that the restoration had occurred and hence The Odinic Rite name! The OR has never disbanded from 1973 until the present day and has no signs of changing. It is the longest running Odinist organisatio nin hte world and has greatly influenced the AFA and AA, whom have also influenced the OR.


 * I used to be a regular at alt.religion.asatru so that's not news to me. Ok, so Odinic Rite was founded in 1973 under the name "Committee for the Restoration of the Odinic Rite / Odinist Committee". Ok, let's add that to the article! Btw, when did they change the name to just "Odinic Rite"? Anyway, 1973 is quite recently compared to 1907 when Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft was founded. And Ásatráarfélagið was officially recognised as a religious body in 1972, but ofcourse exister earlier. // Liftarn


 * : Liftarn Before I add anything to the article, and please believe me I am doing my best to keep to Wikipedia standards, I am working on the "exact" details withthe OR, I want it to be 100% correct which I am sure you can understand. The name was changed specifically to the Odinic Rite in 1980 but there was no departure of activites, no closing of the organisation, no structure change - it has continously run since 1973, where as all the others have stopped and then started and changed names. Also, the OR is the "longest" running and leading "international" Odinist organisation. The Ásatráarfélagið is specific to Iceland (not international) and as for the Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft, it has ceased to be and started numerous times. However, I will ge the specifics for you. Remember, it is the "longest" running "international" Odinist organisation. Many thanks in advance, Fjorn


 * Then it should be "the oldest contiously running, international organisation under (almost) the same name". // Liftarn

Communita Odinista
For dab

Communita Odinista are good friends and comrades of the Odinic Rite but are not a part of the OR. Can you tell me where you read on their site that they are part of the OR? I agree that the Kindred listing is more informative than that of hearth but to say that the basic unit of the OR is a Kindred is simply not true. As for proving the existence of OR France, I can only point you to certain pages where ORF is mentioned such as a book by ORF member, an article by another ORF member and the contact email for the group wyrdiana@wanadoo.fr. The section is headed by Arnbald OR who is a regular guest at the OR Great Moot in London so I have no reason to doubt his existence. Also, why all the links to Else Christianssen pages? I don't mind but there is so much more that could be linked to. Hengest. Odinic Rite Information Officer.

thank you Hengest; I am currently trying to sort out the involved relationships of all these organizations, and since you seem to be very well informed, your contributions are very welcome. It is true that the CO do not claim to be part of OR: I found "Italy" listed in the article already, and figured it must be them. They also seem to be rather more nationalist and less concerned about political neutrality than even the OR. As for the French group, I found reference to them too, and of course they can exist without having an internet presence. There seems to be no mention of them on French Neopagan sites, however. Do you know when they were formed, and whether they are still operational? Concerning the German ORD, I found that they claimed organizational independence from the OR 'trunk' in 2004, while the OR itself still claims them as a 'branch'. I figured this may be a question of tactical representation with regard to the Germans, both the Neopagan subculture and the public, as opposed to internal fealty; or again it may reflect a genuine split within ORD, I don't know. Regarding hearth, all that is noted there that in OR terminology, it is synonymous to Kindred. If that is incorrect, maybe you should fix it. Regarding the Christensen links -- I don't know. I suppose we should remove them, since they are also on Else Christensen. I would much prefer a clean list of links to the various chapters. dab (&#5839;) 12:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Fylfot
somebody has inserted a reference to "Asatru" at swastika. afaik, the Odinic Rite are the only group who explicitly claim the "fylfot" as a historical sacred symbol, so I directed the link here, and am inserting a reference to the claim. dab (&#5839;) 16:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents
I feel that it would be more fitting for the White Horse Stone incident to be seperate after the History and Structure etc. I will add some more to the history but may also have some more activities to add which will complement the WHS part. I am unsure how to make changes to the Contents box though. Hengest 15:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It changes automatically as long as you follow the heading conventions. WeniWidiWiki 15:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, I see now. Thanks Hengest 16:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment
Although interesting, I found the article rather indigestible to read - if it can made easier to read and more flowing, it would be much improved. Brookie :) - a will o' the wisp ! (Whisper...) 19:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

if you know odinism please answer my question.
Odin a god of the norse see right? and thore is his son right? there are frost giants and trolls and demon and such right? My fathers family can from hungary the language spoken the is the closest languege to some of the baltic languages in the world. I am white my parents are white. some of my ancestors didn't come from black africa but are egyptian. What as of any do you know about the corrrelation of odin to cain and the caininits of the bible, what as of any corelation do you know of between thore, hamin at ore (the minataur of greece) and Horace the egyptian god. seeing as how the norse people migrated to the baltic sea and some of them over to the mongolian regins of the world from the south do you know of any correlation at all? And yes I know norse means north. and I am part w.a.s.p. for whatever its worth I am related to a family named war that is supposed to be out of the north seas. I do realize this question was part of the nazi endevore but my curiosities are for different reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.14.129.251 (talk • contribs)

your question seems to boil down to "is there a relationship between Norse paganism, Ancient Egyptian religion and the Biblical descendants of Cain?" The answer is, apart from universal mythological archetypes, very little. Norse paganism as attested in the 13th century already shows some Christian influence, and it can be argued that some aspects of Odin or Baldr are modelled after Christ. Snorri Sturluson in the 13th century speculated that the Æsir had come from "Asia", that is, Scythia, by what we would call "Thraco-Cimmerian" cultural influence on Iron Age Europe. The Scythians in turn saw some Mediterranean / Near Eastern influence, for example, there are suggestions that the word for "hemp" entered Germanic via Scythian from an ultimately Near Eastern source. Regarding Cain, Beowulf derives Grendel from Cainite ancestry, which, if the work dates to the 8th century, may have some bearing on actual pagan opinion, but Grendel is of course a monster or troll, not a god. I think that is about all that can be said on the subject. dab (𒁳) 15:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC) --- Thank you for your reply the subject just sticks out in my mind due to that whole ice age thing. I just don't have the time to read some references that other all ready have. I for some reason don't belive anything about that movie the thirteenth warior maybe it has to do with hollywoods recent symbolizations of christianity as bloodsuckers. But there always seemed to be a link not an influence. But maybe thats just how did you say UMA. As for grendal in beowulf isn't that a heroic tale about children growing up and facing there fears didn't grendel only appear during the storms. That sounds like vainity someone claiming that about beowulf I am really interested in the "family" nature of "different" religions. Thank you again though.

Proposed Merge April 2010
The_Book_of_Blotar seems to be little more than an adjunct to this article so it is proposed to merge it here.--GeezerBird (talk) 23:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. It seems the person who added Book of Blotar, Nine Noble Virtues etc was trying to add as many entries as possible when in reality they are integral parts of the Odinic Rite. Hengest (talk) 18:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Also agree. There are no independent sources for either of the articles, but might as well include any information on the book in the article on the organization which is essentially the sole source of the information about the book. PubliusFL (talk) 08:49, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Merged. --GeezerBird (talk) 19:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Political Smearing
Somebody seems intent on smearing the Odinic Rite with allegations about alleged political affiliations of former members. The OR web site and the Wiki article clearly state "The OR website has a disclaimer to the effect that they are politically neutral and that members who involve themselves in political activity do so as private individuals not as representatives of the Odinic Rite." so any attempt to link the OR to the far right based on the private views of a few members is ludicrous. The OR is a denomination of a religion. We don't see anything about the political affiliations of the odd two or three members of other faiths. Hengest (talk) 18:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Recent
Moved to talk because insufficient WP:RS RJFJR (talk) 14:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Recently, in 2010, the Odinic Rite was slandered by Michael J. Murray aka the Alsherjargodi Valgard Murray, the of the Ásatrú Alliance.

Recent edits re "racist organisation"
A number of recent edits have altered the lede from describing the OR as a "religious organisation" to calling it a "racist organisation". I've reverted it each time as (a) none of the sources are reliable and (b) they don't in fact support describing the OR as racist. (One source explicitly contradicts the assertion!)

I have no view on whether or not the OR is a racist organisation. If it is, then presumably there are reliable sources out there which can back up this assertion and if they can be found we can argue about the best way of editorialising the information they provide. For now the IP editor's continual reinsertions are becoming disruptive and I'm going to semi-protect this article so that only registered users can edit. Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  14:30, 7 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Somewhat related, idk if it is relevant to the article that Yeowell was a member of a fascist organisation in the 1930s, when he was in his teens. The info is referenced, and apparently it is undisputed, but since this isn't a biography page on Yeowell it feels as if this information is simply here to smear the organisation based on guilt by remote association.
 * It would be just as true to state that Yeowell fought against fascism in WWII, with the 77th Indian Infantry Brigade, and apparently went on to serve in the French Foreign Legion until about 1954. "Was a member of Mosley's party in his teens" does not seem to reflect directly on his 1970s views once you know he spent his 20s and 30s fighting for the Allies, so I would suggest the focus on his youthful political views is here cited with selective bias without explaining what it has got to do with the organisation Yeowell co-founded when he was in his 50s. --dab (𒁳) 09:56, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

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Racism
There seems to be a number of users who are sympathetic to the organization that scrub any mentions of racism from the article. I believe that this is a mistake, as there are a number of reputable secondary sources describing the OR's racism. Both "Northern Gods for Northern Folk: Racial Identity and Right-wing Ideology among Britain’s Folkish Heathens" by White, E. and "Corpus Linguistics and Ideology: A study of racist discourse in the Odinic Rite website" by Thomas, D. cover the racism pervasive throughout the organization's site and publications. Chapter two of Norse Revival: Transformations of Germanic Neopaganism, by Stefanie von Schnurbein, mentions the OR as being explicitly racialist.

Given multiple peer reviewed sources, it seems like an oversight to not mention the racism of the OR, or at least the accusations thereof. The organization's denials of being racist or their claims of their own identity shouldn't factor in to their description on Wikipedia. To quote the manual of style: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent reliable sources." Given the reliable sources describe the organization as racist and white supremacist, it seems like we should be using those terms. Alexander-Of-The-Monday (talk) 00:47, 9 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Alexander-Of-The-Monday, I restored it in the lede, as clearly some BS is being practised there despite 'racial' being used and BUP membership being mentioned in sections below. The lede isn't there to somehow normalize a fascist organization's rationalizing nonsense. The real motive behind the group's membership is very clearly not some supposed religion, but racism, and if anything should be relegated to sections below it's the former. If it's scrubbed again I'm asking others, elsewhere... 88.104.31.40 (talk) 17:33, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I’ve removed it because the racism is self-evident from links and article body, adding “racist” is redundant since neo-volkisch is by definition racist. Dronebogus (talk) 08:42, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:12, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:12, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

It's considered a white supremacist group, which has been duly addeed, cited, and the article has been put in the related category. Skyerise (talk) 14:25, 15 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Rewrite
I was bold and did an extensive rewrite of the article, and managed to replace all but one of the affiliated sources with independent ones. It also addresses the concerns brought up in the previous talk page section. Any comments? Skyerise (talk) 16:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Looks a lot better than it did before, thanks for doing the hard work. Hopefully no more propagandists come along to "fix" the article again. Alexander-Of-The-Monday (talk) 10:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I am a Alsherjagothi of The Odinic Rite of Midgard and would love to talk to you and update you on the direction of the Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

TRUTH & UPDATE ON ODINIC RITE
I want to update the site with facts and also introduce the existence of The Odinic Rite of Midgard which is one an the same with The Odinic Rite. HvíturÚlfurORM (talk) 19:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)