Talk:Odle Middle School

PRISM
"PRISM is always located in the Bellevue school (elementary, middle, or high) with the lowest test scores, so as to raise the school's average test scores and make the school's statistics better."

- i deleted this because i feel offended. Prism continuation known as GATES Program will be located in interlake, largely because the convinient location and AP/IB combined courses, not because the reason mentioned above.

- I'm not going to edit anything but I had always heard this as one of the main reasons for locating the program at Stevenson and Odle. Neither school really had much else going for it that would have been a reason to locate that kind of program there.

It would help if PRISM AP and IB were defined. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Nicodemus75 for the info. I see that PRISM remains undefined and all I could find was something to do with reform in science and math. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

December 14, 2006 -CambridgeBayWeather, I added links to wikipedia articles about the IB and AP programs, this is probably sufficient for a passing mention, because neither AP or IB are offered at ODLE. (To take AP Calculus in PRISM, students usually had to travel to Bellevue High School for a class period. This might have changed, but I'd imagine the AP test would be administered in a High School at any rate.)

-As to the statement at the beginning of this talk page, it would be interesting if it was backed up with data. Something along the lines of "Prior to the introduction of PRISM, ODLE's test scores were poor." I can say that it's at least partially true for Interlake High School. IHS does not offer an Advanced Calculus course (there are two students in it during the 2006-2007 school year), whereas Bellevue High School, Newport High School, and Sammamish High School have at least one Advanced Calculus class each. A large portion of the student body failed the math portion of the WASL. But the influx of freshmen into AP Calc AB means there will need to be an advanced calc class in a few years. Remember, the official reason for continuing PRISM in IHS (instead of Sammamish High) was because the IB program better fit the district's aims. That may or may not be true, but prior to IHS's remodeling, it was, statistically at least, the more-worse high school in the Bellevue School District. Remember, there are stats that are not reported, such as student violence and the like.

If anyone wants to check out the statistics, compare SAT scores and number of AP/IB tests from each high school. IHS and SHS are similar in SAT scores (Interlake has better scores) but NHS and BHS are leagues above them. Why weren't Bellevue High and Newport High considered for the program, again? (Overpopulation for BHS and Newport does not take students from outside it's area.)
 * Interlake
 * Sammamish
 * Newport
 * Bellevue

At any rate, I see there is a case for thinking the same might have happened at ODLE and Stevenson, but to properly argue the point, one would need data from years past which may or may not be available.

Maybe school size had something to do with the whole affair? I was told there would be more than 150 PRISM students at ODLE during the 2006-2007 school year. -aleksey

-Actually, I searched and found this very nice tool. Peruse at your will statistics: Side By Side Comparison Tool. ODLE is not the best middle school in the BSD, statistically (see: Tyee). But as Odle is to Tyee, Highland is to Odle. -aleksey

AFD debate link
This page has been kept following this AFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!)  09:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality
You really can't be saying how wonderful a teacher is in a factual article about a school. Wikipedia may be editable by anyone, but it is expected that the information be factual and when possible attributed to reliable sources. I'll will edit that section later unless someone disagrees. --Kraftlos 06:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I killed it because it had no place in an encyclopedia, no matter how true it is =) Unless someone can make a case for it, It really shouldn't be there. Now, if somebody wanted to make a page on some teachers... Well, I guess they have to be relevant. --Aleksey

This article seems pretty biased. it has a sentence or two about the advanteages and then says how much time prism takes up and uses about two paragraphs describing the negatives. If there is going to be a pro/con type thing, it should be written from a neutral perspective, no "biased facts".

It looks good how it's written now. It might appear to be a biased section in the eyes of people in the program, but you can't pull any punches there are opinions both for and against the program. I didn't go to these schools and have no opinion about the program, however I do have an interest in how our region is portrayed on wikipedia and am trying to make this article presentable. If you have a problem with the amount of content for and against, then you should add to the article yourself using valid sources (please don't use deletion to balance the article). Next time please sign your talk. Thanks ^^ --Kraftlos 06:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion
Just to head this off now, please discuss deletion at the deletion discussion page, not here. Kraftlos (talk) 07:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone for working on this rather than just tell me that it was fine as it was.  The article looks good now!  --Kraftlos (talk) 21:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Image: A PRISM LA/SS teacher
I don't think that this image is encyclopaedic nor that it adds anything to the page. Therefore I removed it but the creator then re-added it. May I have other view, please? TerriersFan (talk) 17:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - I agree that a picture of a "PRISM LA/SS teacher" does not seem encyclopaedic. If there is something unique about a PRISM classroom - like design, materials used, etc. - then it would be acceptable to have a picture of those. --Daddy.twins (talk) 17:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see any justification for its inclusion. Alansohn (talk) 17:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A language arts/social studies teacher does not give me an adequate portrayal of this school. Teachers are only a small part of every educational institution.  Also, I am unable to tell if this teacher is even teaching in this picture.  A picture of the school would probably be more notable.  This is kind of helpful, also: Images.  --DerRichter (talk) 19:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you notice in the background, there is a schedule. This is indeed a school enviorment, and the features on this teachers face potrays himself as tired from teaching such a gifted group of students. I indeed know this instructor, and he indeed is a middle school teacher. ⊕ Assasin Joe talk 22:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok thats fine and all, but it is possible than someone foreign to this school may not know what to make of it or the reason for this picture being included. Maybe something that gave a larger scope of the school or student body would be better? --DerRichter (talk) 23:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I second that DerRichter. --Kraftlos (talk) 00:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But i thought your wer the one that wanted the article deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Assasin Joe (talk • contribs) 00:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad the picture was removed; I think it was an embarrassment and painted a bad picture of the portrayed teacher, who, in my opinion, is actually one of the best teachers at the school. @Kraftlos: He is in fact teaching, probably berating a student for his/her work. But nevertheless, a bad picture.

Presentiment (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Presentiment


 * You are probably looking at the wrong image, the original was not edited. Yes, he is one of the best teachers at the school.  However, he seems fine with the edited version and laughs about it.  - electricRush  (  T   C  )Sign! 00:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

However, him laughing about the picture doesn't mean encyclopedic. I can laugh at a joke, but that doesn't mean that joke deserves an article.

Presentiment (talk) 01:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)Presentiment


 * Again, you are probably looking at the wrong image; Image:A PRISM LA/SS teacher was reuploaded as this:
 * [[Image:Mr._Black.jpg|left|frame|[[:Image:Mr. Black.jpg]]]]
 * - electricRush (  T   C  ) Sign!  03:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

That was the one I saw. But I think this section isn't really worth writing in anymore; the picture was removed.

Presentiment (talk) 02:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)Presentiment


 * But would you care to tell why you thought the image protrayed a bad picture of the teacher? Thanks, - electricRush  (  T   C  )Sign! 05:02, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Math Competitions
I would like to discuss the notability of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Odle_Middle_School&diff=244693944&oldid=244198570. Specifically, why is this one competition notable? Should we add the top finishers in all such competitions for all middle school articles before Wikipedia is complete? --DerRichter (talk) 06:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that placing, as opposed to winning, in a state competition does not merit inclusion but I should put a different emphasis on this. It is not a question of whether the competition is notable as such (though it may be), which would justify its own page, but whether the results are worth a mention in the article. Many events are mentioned in schools articles that are not inherently notable. For example, if the school burned down that would be worth including even though the fire wouldn't be individually notable similarly with winning state athletic championships, a significant financial scandal or a major charity fund-raising success. The question is what should be included. In my view winning a state-wide competition crosses the bar as does coming in the top ten of a national competition. TerriersFan (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the Washington State Math Championship is notable because students go through a rigorous selection process in their seperate schools. The students must then compete against more than 1000 participants at a gigantic event (this event includes a hired magician and on-site movie maker for entertainment).  Also, Washington is the strongest state in the US in mathematics competitions; one former PRISM student won the 2007 MathCounts national competition.  Also, by writing placing in the top ten, I meant that they were the top ten scorers but this did include the ties.  Clearly, scoring in the top 10 out of the 1000 best people in Washington, in the 99 percentile, is notable. ~electricRush ( T C ) [[Image:USA-China.JPG|20px]] [[Image:Wikipedia Rollback.png|20px]] 01:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * But is any of that notable? Before you answer, read What Wikipedia is not and Notability.  Also, if someone were to be writing about themselves, that would be against our policies because that particular person would not be able to maintain a neutral point of view.  Clearly, this does not display the top 10 of the best people in Washington, but rather high scorers in a middle school math competition of only 1000 students. Are all middle school math competitions notable?  Additionally, do you have any way of proving your claims about Washington being the strongest state in the US in math competitions? Thanks --DerRichter (talk) 03:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * To answer your questions: I am not writing about myself. Secondly, this does display the top 10 of all students in Washington; this is not simply a random mathematics competition.  These are the championships in Washington, and the 1000 or so allowed to participate have already been chosen in several preliminary competitions.  Thirdly, Washington has produced the highest scorers in the national championships, MathCounts, and has done exceedingly well in the International Mathematics Olympiad.   ~electricRush ( T C ) [[Image:USA-China.JPG|20px]] [[Image:Wikipedia Rollback.png|20px]] 01:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay thanks. --DerRichter (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Name?
The intro to the article says that the school was named after a teacher who taught there 55 years. What was the school called before they named the school after him? --Kraftlos (talk) 06:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe Odle Middle School was always named after him, possibly because he had founded it, although I am not sure. I will inquire tomorrow about this.  ~electricRush ( T C ) [[Image:USA-China.JPG|20px]] [[Image:Wikipedia Rollback.png|20px]] 02:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ElectricRush is Correct. This school was named after Frank Odle.
 * According to the 2nd footnote, Olde Middle School was opened after Frank Odle died. It was named in his honor because he taught for 55 years in Washington and was superintendent of this district, but he never taught at or even lived to see Odle Middle School.  When it says he taught there, it means Bellevue School District, not Odle Middle School. I will try to clarify this.  --DerRichter (talk) 23:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization in headers
According to the MOS, we don't capitalize unless it would normally be capitalized. For example, we wouldn't make "Composition of the tribunals" read as "Composition Of The Tribunals" in the header. However, we also wouldn't make "President of the United States of America" read as "President of the united states of america". So, ask yourselves, would the text in the headers normally be capitalized? If an agreement can't be reached here, then look at FA and either figure it out or come up with different header titles. The next person to revert this article will be blocked for violating 3RR. لenna vecia  15:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Fact template
Do you need written references for information in the article, or a non-recorded source be allowed? If they are, I could confirm all the statements that are marked with. Thanks, ~electricRush ( T C ) 01:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * They must be published references. See WP:RS. They don't have to be available online, but they have to be attainable in some form. لenna  vecia  17:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes Jennavecia is correct. We cannot just take your word for unsourced statements. Remember what Wikipedia is not.  It is especially not for things made up one day. All claims need reliable sources, or we will have no idea if they are true or not.  --DerRichter (talk) 21:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Photos of teachers
Is there a necessary reason for photos of teachers to be included in the article? I don't see how they are at all necessary. School pages should not be decorated with photos of students and staff like this, in my opinion. either way (talk) 21:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We should at least the image of Jack Black, as he is a highly important person who designed most of the PRISM language arts and social studies curriculum and has won several awards for his teaching. ~electricRush ( T C ) 23:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. ⊕ Assasin Joe talk 06:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You keep saying he's notable, but I see nothing to suggest he is. Why, exactly, do you think we need to have a photo of him in the article?  What does it add to the article about the school?  either way (talk) 23:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I do think he does meet WP:BIO as he has won several awards. Just as cast members are listed on the article of a movie, distinguished teachers should also be included.  In any case, the picture was already there before I added the picture of Brian Jones.  ~electricRush ( T C ) 01:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When it was put there has nothing to do with whether or not it should stay. And, no, he does not meet WP:BIO because there are not independent, reliable sources to prove his notability.  either way (talk) 01:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that neither of the photos of teachers were useful for this article. Read Image use policy.  Even if the teacher meets WP:BIO, this is still an article about the school.  A picture of the building, however, would be useful.  --DerRichter (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To Either way, there are independent third-party sources both published online and in print about Jack Black. Unfortunately I do not have enough time currently to give the links.  About the photo of the school, I may be able to take one.  ~electricRush ( T C ) 04:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Update: I have uploaded and added an image of the front entrance of the school. It is a bit foggy, and I will try to take another in the future. - electric  Rush  |  Sign!  03:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Location
I think that you should note that Odle Middle School is across the street from Stevenson Elementary, where the Elementary PRISM program is/was/will be held until the '09/'10 school year.

--GradyN777 (talk) 04:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How is that significant?  Math Cool  10  Sign here! 06:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It is very significant in my opinion. -  down  load  |  sign!  04:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Extracurricular awards
Should this be displayed as a list? There is quite a lot of information that would be displayed well in that format. Jailerdaemon (talk) 01:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, it is better in prose format, according to WP:MOS.  -  down  load  |   sign!  01:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If the awards at Odle get to a point that it cannot be read effeciently, lists are okay. But right now a new paragraph for each award or two is sufficient. ⊕ Assasin Joe talk 01:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed; I'll take care of this if they get to the point that it's overflowing.  -  down  load  |   sign!  02:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done for math team.  -  down  load  |   sign!  20:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

References 17-19
References 17-19 lead to the same link, which is the current Knowledge Master results. Could someone change it to old result links? Thanks.  Math Cool  10  Sign here! 23:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll see if I can find a permanent link for the results.  -  down  load  |   sign!  00:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There are none. Give up.Jailerdaemon (talk) 01:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

la/ss
put la/ss 9 in. i feel discriminated against. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jailerdaemon (talk • contribs) 01:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to. I don't have much to add about it...  -  down  load  |   sign!  00:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And also remember to find sources.  Math Cool  10  Sign here! 04:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Demographics
Someone must have vandalized the demographics section. It excludes Hispanic and African American students. It doesn't even match the source that is being used, which is a bad one anyways. This one should be used: http://www.bsd405.org/Default.aspx?tabid=127. --DerRichter (talk) 04:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Fixed; the old version was correct for the 2008-2009 school year and omitted minorities.  -  down  load  ׀  sign!  04:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Academy Classes Description
"Academy courses are a more rigorous and in-depth option for over-achieving students rather than normal classes offered at Odle."

I have a problem with this sentence. By saying that Academy students are overachievers, the author of this sentence is making the assumption that generally, all Academy students receive good marks and are enthusiastic about school. I have been to this school, and I know from person experience that this is not necessarily the case. I would like to reword this sentence, but wanted to run it by the talk page first. I would say, "Academy courses are a more rigorous and in-depth option that students can opt to take as an alternative to normal classes offered at Odle."

WorldCupDude (talk) 02:21, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you - will make your change to the article. :)  -  down  load  ׀  talk  02:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)