Talk:Odysseas Androutsos

Ethnicity
Ethnicity/nationality hasn't been in the lede since August. Its removal wasn't disputed, hence any changes to it should find consensus. I oppose any inclusion of ethnicity/nationality in the lede for individuals who were neither ethnically nor nationally part of any community. Ethnic labeling and classification schemes obscure the historical reality.--Maleschreiber (talk) 05:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * It was removed without explanation. Anyway Androutsos is primarily known as a leading figure in the Greek revolutionary army and that's enough for inclusion per wp:MOSBIO intro. I can't understand why are you mixing up ethnicity.Alexikoua (talk) 05:55, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It wasn't disputed, hence you need consensus for your edits. You can revert yourself or we can discuss it via admin oversight. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 06:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * By the way I can't see an in-depth reference that mentioned him as Arvanite. We have nothing more that a short list that simply mentions him as Arvanite in a work about a modern community. That's not a strong argument.Alexikoua (talk) 06:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if you've actually read Mazower's sections about him. They don't support the idea of perceiving him as a "national hero". It is better to avoid national descriptions for the lead and focus on the real history of the figure in question. Disava doesn't have to be mentioned like MSch had boldened it, but it was clearly a part of how he was known. --Botushali (talk) 09:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * He is primarily known as one of the main heroes of the Greek revolution [][][][], so its better to secure neutrality in such cases. Disava is an alternative name and he isn't known as such in modern literature, so per wp:MOSBIO intro this doesn't belong to the introductory part. By the way you reverted back that "his family was from Livanates" though his mother's side was from Preveza... Alexikoua (talk) 11:13, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Everybody here argued about ethnicity was removed from the lead, and one editor goes as far as to relate ethnicity with nationality (ethnicity/nationality) but IMO, if one looks at the wikilink that was removed from Androutsos, will see it is not ethnicity but nationality that was removed. Ethnicity Greek is different concept than nationality Greek ; the first refers to people who identify themselves based on common ancestral, cultural, national, and social experience, while the latter refers to the country of citizenship. There have been similar confusions happening elsewhere across Wikipedia, even about modern-day nationals, whose nationality was challenged on the grounds that they had different origin (ethnicity). The rationale in Wikipedia is to not confuse ethnicity and nationality. Is there any reason the two different terms got their meanings confused there? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 11:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This individual died in 1825. He wasn't ethnically or nationally Greek and this doesn't have to do with him being of Albanian origin or the fact that the Greece didn't exist yet on paper. His life, activity and all other aspects of his biography don't allow for an "easy" national or ethnic classification. I think that we can agree that trying to classify someone when no classification is historically available or emic (self-reported) creates conceptual problems which don't improve articles. What more would we and the readers learn about this individual if we tried to classify him? --Maleschreiber (talk) 11:42, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) The article reads - no edit mistakes by . It's bad use of bibliography to mix random books with historiographical publications. And it's not related to nationality.  placed a very interesting expansion of his activity. I'm not familiar with Greek bibliography but I don't know why you want to call a "main hero of the Greek revolution" someone who was executed by the Greek government because he murdered other rebels, pillaged the poor and the wealthy alike and before his death fought with the Ottomans against the uprising. You can file a discussion at RfC if you want to call him that and I'll read with great interest how other editors from WP Greece respond to ahistorical WP:PEACOCK narratives. --Maleschreiber (talk) 11:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The article reads ...his family was from the village of Livanates in Phthiotis prefecture.. but then and then His father was Andreas Verousis, a klepht from Livanates, while his mother, Akrivi Tsarlampa was from Preveza. Odysseus' family was never found in Livanates. Of course this is an edit mistake, Preveza and Livanates are two diferrent places. Botushali simply reverted the previous wrong text and this should be corrected. If you are not familiar with Greek bibliography (as you admit) about the specific historical events I'm astonished that you display persistent OWN in such articles. Androutsos is primarily known as such (representative, leader of the Greek revolutionary army and often considered hero of the 1821 struggle). I kindly suggest to read the correspondent bibliography.Alexikoua (talk) 11:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm reading reliable contemporary academic publications. You may call him a "leader of the Greek revolutionary army" and a "hero". I respect your personal belief system. But bibliography doesn't because it doesn't correspond to historical reality. You can file a discussion at RfC. --Maleschreiber (talk) 11:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The vast majority in scholarship after mentioning "Odysseas Androutsos" follows with hero/leader/commander of the Greek Revolution [][][][]. Off course you can fill a RfC in case you personally disagree with such mainstream views.Alexikoua (talk) 12:10, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I have not changed the wording in regards to his mother. Furthermore, his actions do not befit that of a hero’s in this specific context. In my opinion, he was compared to his Muslim Albanian brethren, who were looked down on by Greek society, because of his actions - out of his own anger he was willing to rejoin the Ottomans for prominent positions and indeed joined forces with them before his capture - but that's just my opinion based on the historical facts I’ve read. What is uncontroversial, however, is that he was not a primary hero of the Greek revolution; rather, he abandoned it.  It seems utterly unnecessary to explain that here, but it simply cannot be avoided. Botushali (talk) 14:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, it appears that even Ilican has been falsified here: a brief description by the author which you are stubbornly refusing to add in lead: Androutsos, Odysseas, called Captain Disava by the Ottoman functionaries, was one of the most renowned heroes of the Greek War of Independence. (Ilican is not found in Greek). It appears you need to explain why this is still not part of the introduction. There is a mountain of scholarship that confirms that notability of the subject concerns primarily this.Alexikoua (talk) 14:32, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That's correct. Looking at Google, I have found several more WP:RS, (not English ones only, but even non-English ones), supporting that they were a prominent figure who participated in the country's war of independence, but interestingly enough, no RS suggesting otherwise. Considering the lack of strong sources for the opposite, any challenges against his notability due to participating in the war of independence is out of the question here. The question isn't whether the person has abandoned the efforts at some point or another as Botushali suggests, but about whether he gained notability for his activities. And he did. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 16:24, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment Khirurg's edit is an acceptable description which covers the subject neutrally. For better or worse, the events of the GWoI are why the subject is notable. --Maleschreiber (talk) 16:30, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * A month ago we left the article with no mention of ethnicity/nationality at the lede. For most of the article's history it had no mention of ethnicity/nationality at the lede. The November discussion is a form of silent consensus. If something has changed, we need to discuss possible changes at the talkpage. I don't think that edit-warring to include it is conducive to the creation of a good editing environment.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The article never discussed ethnicity/nationality at the lede. I checked the history tab. Nationality/ethnicity at the lede was added for the first time by a sock of Mercurius/Deji on 28 July, 2021 and it was quickly reverted back to the pre-sock version.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Per WP:MOSBIO, biography articles should include nationality in the lede. That is policy. Ethnicity need not be mentioned, but nationality should be, as should allegiance (which side he fought for). Androutsos was of Greek nationality, because he was appointed commander in chief by the Greek government, and he fought for the Greek side. This is similar to George Washington, who is described as an "American soldier". Because that was his nationality and allegiance. This is also the view of the literature [Heritage_and_Sustainable_Urban_Transform], which overwhelmingly describes him as "Greek revolutionary", "Greek commander", "Greek leader", etc. This is not about "ethnicity" and has nothing to do with "ethnicity", and this fixation on "ethnicity" needs to end. He was of Greek nationality, he fought for Greece, and is described as such by the literature. Arguments about the past state of the article are completely irrelevant and cannot be taken seriously. We will not hide this information from readers, and attempt to impose this by brute force edit warring will fail, one way or another. Khirurg (talk) 01:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Just a month ago we settled this by not writing anything about nationality/ethnicity at the lede. It was agreed and you didn't revert it again. The last comment on November 17 was written by me and it says What changed now? The bottom line of the dispute is that now you want to add something which a month ago wasn't added. To do that you either have to get consensus from existing editors or search for a wider consensus. I don't know why the dispute restarted but it can't be expected that something which we settled on November 17 is going to be repeated with a different outcome on December 10. I'm open to all proposals as always.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Mazower, Mark (4 November 2021). The Greek Revolution: 1821 and the Making of Modern Europe. Penguin Books Limited - a contemporary publication about the Greek Revolution avoids national/ethnic description(s) for many figures including Androutsos.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:55, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Means nothing. What, we're going to go around removing Greek from all the articles about figures of the Greek War of Independence because Mazower? And no it was never "settled". Can you point to where it says it was "settled"? Just because you declared it "settled", doesn't mean anything. We never had any kind of "deal", and no one agreed to keep nationality off the lede - I certainly never agreed to any such thing. But anyway, these are appeals to tradition and not valid arguments. Bottom line is, the literature describes him as "Greek", and nationality goes in the lede per WP:MOSBIO. Any other stuff about "settled", "a month ago" and "socks" are non-arguments and will be treated as such. Khirurg (talk) 02:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But he was not of Greek nationality and he abandoned the Greek cause very early on. This is a dubious claim. Maybe RfC? Botushali (talk) 01:38, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Please see nationality. Because he was of Greek nationality, and no, he did not abandon the Greek cause "very early on". And the sources describe him as Greek. Nothing dubious, only a very strongly sourced, obvious fact. Khirurg (talk) 02:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I am not interested in this content dispute. Just a note because of the many mentions of the word "consensus". Since when the article was created years ago until August 2021, the lede did not contain any Greek nationality or ethnicity. It was first added in August earlier this year, and was immediately removed. It was added again in November and again immediately removed. So nobody needs a new consensus to remove the word "Greek" from the lede; on the contrary, a new consensus is needed to add it. That he was of Greek ethnicity is sth obvious and that is what sources mean when they refer to him as Greek. What his "nationality" was is open to debate, because the Greek government at the time of his death apparently was still an internationally unrecognized one. If you can't find a solution, seek more opinions with an RfC. Ktrimi991 (talk) 02:20, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * "What his "nationality" was is open to debate, because the Greek government at the time of his death apparently was still an internationally unrecognized one" Ktrimi, first of all, none conditioned nationality to the diplomatic status of a country. Had this been ever the case, then the Kosovarians shouldn't been called as such during the early days of the independent, and rather be called Serbians. Or the Taiwanese people shouldnt becalled as such but as Chinese. Your logic is very flawed. Your role as an editor isn't to question what the sources do say using such flawed arguments. If the majority consensus in the sources do state that this person is of Greek nationality, then you ought to respect that and Wikipedia has to reflect on it. Simple as that. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 02:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Kosovo, Taiwan etc are recognized by a number of countries and international organizations. AFAIK, that was not the case for Greece. Sources that call him Greek might refer to his ethnicity. Do you have a source that says that his nationality was Greek? Idk how these cases are treated in other articles. Maybe one of the involved editors can open an RfC or maybe a quick DRN hoping someone with experience with such cases would help. Ktrimi991 (talk) 02:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * His ethnicity was Arvanite, his nationality and allegiance was Greek. Same way George Washington is described as "American" in the opening sentence, though the USA were unrecognized during the war of independence. Khirurg (talk) 02:50, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, George Washington lived for years in an internationally recognized US. The US got international recognition years before he died. Did Greece give at the time an official document of citizenship and identification to its population and Androutsos specifically? In any case, "Arvanite" is not an ethnicity. At some point at time they were ethnic Albanians. then ethnic Greeks. Ktrimi991 (talk) 02:59, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ktrimi, your argument is incorrect! As an editor in the Albania topic area you ought to know that 1) the Kosovarians were known as such before ever Kosovo gained any diplomatic recognition. 2) Nationality was never conditioned to third party recognition. Please see what Wikipedia says on Nationality: In older texts or other languages the word "nationality", rather than "ethnicity", is often used to refer to an ethnic group (a group of people who share a common ethnic identity, language, culture, lineage, history, and so forth). This older meaning of "nationality" is not defined by political borders or passport ownership and includes nations that lack an independent state (bolt in emphasis) So, considering that nationality is not defined or determined by wether a state was independent or not, or lacked recognition, I will ask this very simple question and I expect an answer: If the majority of the academic scholars have reached a consensus about this person's nationality, then shouldn't Wikipedia reflect on it? Its a very simple question, really!--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 03:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As I said, those sources apparently refer to his ethnicity. As I said also, I am not interested in this thing. I came only due to the many conflicting mentions of consensus. Do not try to persuade me. I am not againt or pro adding the word "Greek" there. After all he was an ethnic Greek - for me is not any big damage to the article if the word "Greek" is added there or not. In the end this discussion is a total waste of time. Ktrimi991 (talk) 03:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The scholars do not care about ethnicities I am afraid. The Scholars may mention ethnicity if necessary, but only in certain contexts (i.e. informative reasons). And when the scholars write about historical people, they treat them based on their actions as nationals, not for their ethnicity which didn't didn't help determine their notability in the first place anyways. To claim the opposite here, is factually wrong and not how things are done in Wikipedia. To state the opposite here, shows either editorial ignorance of sources, or worse. I will say it one last time: do not confuse ethnicity with nationality, its unhelpful. The scholars consider Androutsos a notable figure of Greece's history and that's why they wrote about that person, and you ought to respect that. Now, back to our subject. Per WP:MOSBIO, nationality should be covered. The academic sources have reached a consensus on this and we ought to respect it. I take it that you are not against Wikipedia's guidelines? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 03:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Why editors confuse ethnicity with nationality? Please note that: Wikipedia reflects collectively on what the majority of the sources and scholars do say, not on editorial opinions based on selective WP:CHERRYPICKING of sources such as Mazower. Can the editors explain why what the sources do say on the matter, shouldn't be reflected on the article about that person? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 02:26, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * per WP:MOSBIO nationality should be mentioned on lede.
 * the vast majority of the sources describe him as Greek national.
 * The sources don't agree on the matter - in particular, the ones which discuss historiography and MOS:CONTEXTBIO in general promotes avoiding national context when it's not important for the person's activity. And I don't think that he ever held Greek nationality unless the argument is that because he fought briefly for the Greek government - which later executed him - he was a Greek national. If we use a strictly technical measure point, then we would have to add that he was an "Ottoman" because he died as an Ottoman subject. If that sounds pedantic, it's because it is pedantic. Not classifying the subject's nationality/ethnicity at the lede moves all complexities which can't be clarified in one word to the main article. If we can't agree - which is an entirely ok thing to do - you can ask at RfC all the relevant questions which might provide a wider perspective. --Maleschreiber (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Uh no, the sources are in fact overwhelmingly referring to him as "Greek", because that was his nationality and allegiance. Not a single source describes him as "Ottoman", because that is ridiculous on the face of it. A group of users, no matter how determined, cannot and should not prevent the addition of overwhelmingly sourced material, especially for reasons that aren't even stated. Khirurg (talk) 03:01, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ktrimi's and Maleschreiber's challenging of what the majority of the scholars do state on the matter about Androutsos, plus Ktrimi's and Maleschreiber's conditioning Nationality to... diplomatic recognition or independence even though it is clear that This older meaning of "nationality" is not defined by political borders or passport ownership and includes nations that lack an independent state, isn't contributing positively to this topic discussion. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 03:13, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, we are deep within WP:OR at this point. And it's really odd that a group of users is so vehemently opposed to the mention of what is basically a simple, uncontroversial fact. Kind of alarming, actually.Khirurg (talk) 03:43, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The alarming isnt just that we have a discussion about the *obvious* here. Usually, what the vast majority of the sources do state about a person, is accepted without any objection in Wikipedia. The alarming here is that the objections come from editors who have shown WP:NATIONALIST patterns in the recent years in the Greece topic area and for which the AE admins have already been notified. The AE will like to know that the same editors are now going against even the overwhelming majority of scholars about Androutsos's nationality and are trying to stonewall the discussion by using problematic arguments on nationalities of historic people "being defined by political borders or by a lack an independent state". Also the disruptive pointing to RfCs for uncontroversial information such as this, with the sole purpose of delaying the inevitable conclusion of that discussion, aren't going to give positive impressions around. RfCs are meant for cases where editors have exhausted all other chances for reaching consensus and means of resolving an actual content dispute based on WP:RS, not for disruptive cases where editors are challenging the very academic consensus itself. RfCs were never meant to be used as a solution to such kinds of disruptions. Also, mind you, using RfCs to overcome such situations only discourage future editors from ever adding such information in the articles of that topic area without risking being dragged into RfCs everytime about something as uncontroversial as this. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 04:12, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I fully agree. If it has gotten to the point where we need RfCs for adding even the simplest, most basic WP:BLUESKY facts, that's a sign that things in the topic area have gotten way out of hand. The mere fact that we are having this discussion is totally surreal. An RfC over whether a Greek military commander who fought in the Greek War of Independence can be referred to as "Greek" is just...surreal. Such an RfC would of course end in a landslide in favor of addition, but it shouldn't come to that. This is just absurd. I suggest you contact the same admins you contacted last time, this needs to stop. Khirurg (talk) 04:41, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I won't call the AE admins for reverts based on an evident misunderstanding of Nationality with Citizenship. Botushali's question below boosts my confidence that no editor would edit war an article that is under WP:BALKANS discretionary sanctions just out of the blue. Considering that prior to my participation there was an evident confusion over nationality and citizenship (see Ktrimi, Botushali and Maleschreiber's comments), and considering that these have been cleared out already, I am confident that won't be necessary. I will wait for replies here and if there are no other issues, I will restore the verified information back to the article but I won't notify the AE. However, if I see that nonsense edit revert wars resume for even such an obvious information despite the discussion here clearing things out, then yes, I will notify them. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 04:55, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, I hadn't seen your comment while I was editing the article. Anyway, I've re-added the nationality, with half a dozen sources. I think that should settle it. I can't imagine anyone who would want to remain in good standing would choose to remove something so strongly sourced. And if they do, then we have a real problem in the topic area. Khirurg (talk) 05:12, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Ok, something which I don't understand about nationality - if he died in 1825 and Greece became a state in 1828 or maybe 1830 eventually, why is he a Greek national? Botushali (talk) 04:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * What you are talking about is Citizenship. Citizenship is defined by whether a state is independent, while nationality, historically is not. Citizenship and Nationality should NOT be confused with each other! Androutsos was never a citizen of Greece and none here claims that he was. The sources only refer to his nationality, not his citizenship. All editors, including me and everyone else, are urged to show competence and not confuse such different concepts with each other. If an editor has hard time understanding what nationality is, then they are welcome to read the article Nationality. And last, I shall remind everyone here that we are not here to challenge what the scholarly consensus is about a person, just because some editors may be having a difficult time understanding nationality and that it had nothing to do with a state being independent. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 04:18, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Androutsos was a commander of the Greek revolutionary army, he was also one of the distinguished Greeks in the court of Ali Pasha. @Botushali: it's like saying that Skenderbeu was NOT Albanian because Albania was created in 1912. We have a ton of evidence and bibliography for both of them.Alexikoua (talk) 08:13, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Regardless the nationality thing, Androutsos can't be fairly compared with Skanderbeg. As someone who sold his people to the Ottomans, Androutsos is more similar with Hamza Kastrioti, Skanderbeg's nephew. Well, Androutsos seems to be the kind of "hero" for the Greek nationalists the same kind of "hero" Ali Pasha is for Albanian nationalists. Only their "good sides" are taken into account. Balkan nationalists have their weak aspects. :P Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

We will either mention him as a Greek Arvanite (Greco-Albanian) or nothing at all. I hope this article becomes unbiased RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 19:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Androutsos is primarily known as a Greek revolutionary, even the fact that he was among the Greeks in service of Ali Pasha is widely sourced.Alexikoua (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Is primarily known in Greece as Greek Revolutionary. In Albania its known as an Arvanite revolutionary. So he is an arvanite as it is Widely Sourced. So either "Albanian Greek" or nothing at all. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 23:45, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Scholarship appears to be against your personal thoughts:


 * Androutsos+"Greek revolutionary": 219 hits []
 * Androutsos+"Arvanite revolutionary": 0 hits: []
 * Also you need to respect wp:BRD, this means that in controversial removals you need to secure consensus before making the same removal again. Be aware that wp:OWN after several reverts might result of being blocked.Alexikoua (talk) 00:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Doesnt matter how many hits there are if there is the truth. Down at the article there is mentioned and referenced that he was an arvanite. It is confirmed that he was an arvanite. So if you will simply revert it until you are satisfied doesnt make it right. And that will make me and a lot of others question your neutrality. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 01:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

So for the sake of professional history lets solve it neutrally how it needs to be. Is it allegiance or ethnicity or nationality? Allegiqnce doesnt make him greek. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 01:03, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Also there are hundreds of hits for Androutsos "arvanite revolutionary" RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 01:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You provided no link of those hits. Can you provide a prove of those "hundreds of hits"? We all know that our personal POV can be slightly different from the neutral POV.Alexikoua (talk) 16:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I dont know how to provide the link. If you click at the pseudo 0 hits link that you provided there it is. We must solve this once and for all anyway. Why was he greek? Ethnically Arvanite. Nationality during ottoman empire cant be greek. A nation its defined mainly by Language and culture group. Citizenship.... Ottoman. So i am waiting for an answer which is it? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 19:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The subject is notable as a Greek military leader/revolutionary. Yes he might be ethnically Arvanite or anything else but we have to follow MOS:ETHNICITY: Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead sentence unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead sentence unless relevant to the subject's notability..Alexikoua (talk) 04:57, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

According to MOS:ETHNICITY the "Greek" part should not be in the lead section. If you would change it as a military leader/revolutionary of greek revolutionary forces that should be okay. The first example mistakenly implies his ethnicity/nationality the second one its the "group" he represented at a certain period. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 14:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)


 * He was a commander of the Greek side of this conflict that's why the Greek "part" should be in lead. The reader should understand that he a Greek commander.Alexikoua (talk) 04:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Commandin the Greek Revolutionary troops doesn't make you a Greek Commander. It makes you a commander of Greek Revolutionary troops. Just like Che Guevara it's not a Cuban Commander, But an Argentinian commanding the Cuban revolutionary troops. Since we dont want ethnicity in the Lead, it should be a commander of the Greek Revolutionary Troops or whatever official name the troops had. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

How can we add a neutral third party to judge this case? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't understand why you are mixing unrelated events here. Was Che Guevara the commander of a national movement in Cuba? Che Guevara led various movements not only in Cuba. On the other hand Androutsos was never a "non-Greek commander" or a commander of Arvanite revolutionaries as you claimed without supporting this claim. Even in Ali Pasha's court he was distinguished as a Greek commander.Alexikoua (talk) 00:00, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I never claimed he was a commander of arvanite revolutionaries. He was a commander of revolutionary forces of greece. But he wasnt Greek. Its simple. He wasn't ethnically greek and he never had greek citizenship or nationality. Phyrros Dimas represented both Albania and Greece too but in his article he is mentioned as Greek. We can play how much you want with words but this information is a mistake and should be removed. He wasnt a Greek Commander. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 14:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Why wasn't he a Greek commander? He actually was a commanding general of the Greek army. P. Dimas was completely unknown while representing Albania, no notability during his pre-1991 participation in sports.Alexikoua (talk) 03:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Commanding the greek army doesnt make you A Greek commander. It doesnt matter how known Dimas was while representing albania. He represented albania so he is an albanian-greek sportsman according to your example. So either we will write Arvanite comanding the Greek revolution or nothing at all. Not a Greek Commander. Its a wrong information. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 09:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Kiço Mustaqi commanded the Albanian army nevertheless per policy he is an Albanian general. Panajot Pano Albania's most renowned soccer player is an Albanian soccer player though of Greek origin. Didn't I told you that MOSBIO applies for all biograpghies?Alexikoua (talk) 05:14, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

We are not talking about the citizenship. These are citizenships. While Androutsos didnt had a greek citizenship. Nor did he ever lived in independent greek country RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 08:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Also if it is how you say it. Why is marko botsaris first a captain of suliotes then a hero of greek war of indipendence. Why isnt him "Greek Captain"? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid you can't describe your real argument here: Botaris was a leader of a Souliote unit that fought in the Greek army. Androutsos was not a leader of an Arvanite unit. His unit can be better described of consisting of men from 'central Greece' or 'eastern central Greece'. Yet again you insist to ignore MOSBIO.Alexikoua (talk) 18:41, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with it. I repeat saying that someone is a Greek Commander implies its nationality / ethnicity which is wrong and should not be there. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 08:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Two years+ and the same kind of disruption again. Androutsos is describeδ a Greek military commander even during his service in Ali Pasha's court. It's a clear case of wp:MOSBIO to describe him as such from the lead. Scholarship is also clear on that.Alexikoua (talk) 20:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Bato is kindly requested to take a deep breath and avoid further revert warring.Alexikoua (talk) 20:42, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Describing Odysseas Androutsos as Greek in the first sentence of the lede is inaccurate. He was an Albanian by birth, raised within an Albanian court, and working most of his life as a commander of an independent Albanian ruler. Androutsos followed this Albanian ruler until his capitulation. Only afterwards, in the period 1821–1825 he could have been called "Greek commander". The well sourced article makes it clear. Pushing only a specific pov should be avoided. – Βατο (talk) 20:45, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It appears you are into deep into wp:OR, let me help you what's wrong on your extraordinary claims: He was an Albanian by birth (actually his father was Arvanite), raised within an Albanian court (no, Ali's court was partly Greek don't forget that, I can't name you dozens of Greeks in that Greek, Psalidas, Noutsos, Vilaras and many others), and working most of his life as a commander of an independent Albanian ruler (was Ali independent? anyway Androutsos was considered Greek even in Ali's court . I'm afraid you need to read the discussion in the page to acquire a neutral view of Androutsos. As I've said even during Ali's service he is clearly described as a Greek commander. Simply ignoring the available bibliography isn't constructive. You are seveverely ignoring wp:MOSBIO and considering your experience you defninitely know that this falls into wp:DISRUPTION. Alexikoua (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Historical facts can't be original research because they can all easly be sourced with reliable sources. Read the well sourced article to understand that the description you want to add in the lede is undue. Until 1821 he had nothing to do with the concept of Greece or Greek that emerged only later. Also, as reported by Magliveras (2009) also concerning Androutsos: Regarding Ali and his rulership, it obviously was Albanian, and his administered terriotory was officially called Albania by the western powers. I do not need history lessons, thanks. – Βατο (talk) 21:09, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * And yet, if I am not mistaken, in the lede of Souliotes, you and several other users were very keen to NOT describe Ali as "Ottoman Albanian", but simply as "Ottoman". Khirurg (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ali was an Ottoman Albanian ruler who increasingly acquired autonomy and eventually became de facto independent from the Ottoman Empire, I do not oppose adding it in the article Souliotes. – Βατο (talk) 21:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, fair enough, I take it you don't object to describing him as "Albanian" in the lede of the Souliotes article then. Khirurg (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * you avoid to answer. You turn the entire sholarship on Androutsos that doens't hesitate to refer to him as Greek commander as well as wp:MOSBIO as completely useless with the excuse that "you don't need history lessons". Kindly advice: we all need history lessons.Alexikoua (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Scholars have variously described him as a hero or a traitor to the Greek cause in the Greek War of Independence
I wonder if there is a single source that describes him as a traitor. By the way only Stavrou mentions the word 'traitor' but under a limited context and not considering him a traitor, saying: "That Odysseus Androutsos ended his days less a hero than a traitor is simply ignored". To sum up the claim that some scholars described him as a traitor isn't supported by the available scholarship. We should be precise on what the given sholarship states.Alexikoua (talk) 05:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * He signed a truce with the Ottomans and was executed by the Greek government. The rest is about the interpretation of the past for the purpose of serving narratives about the present.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I wonder if Alexikoua has read the article. There are 3 RS that literally call Androutsos a "traitor". Another one says Androutsos fought only when it suited him and he did not care about any sort of nationhood. Ofc the article also has the other view that he was a "hero". Indeed, such stories are more nuanced than national narratives attempt to make them look like. It is quite amusing that in the 21st century some people keep imagining that illiterate/semi-literate bandits like Ali Pasha, Androutsos, Boçari/Botsaris and others were die-hard "patriots". Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you name them? I would appreciate if you finally avoid wp:NPA this time. Why you partially removed text based on Stavrou? (That Odysseus Androutsos ended his days less a hero than a traitor is simply ignored). Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way since you avoid a neutral presentation of scholarship in this case because he served the enemy, I admit that based on this rational this makes a good argument for Skanderbeg too: well he served the Sultan more the 20 years (r. 1421–1444) & many other Albania die-hard "patriots" served on enemy camps, but I'm not recycling such arguments (they are too weak and we need more than that, I suggest to check scholarship on the subject).Alexikoua (talk) 20:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Androutsos Greek or not in intro
@Alexikoua, explain exactly how Androutsos qualifies as a Greek. Your arguments above are completely unsatisfactory. Provide RS bibliography that logically supports your claim. He was born an Albanian, raised in a court dominated by Albanians, abandoned the Greek side for the Ottoman side, and died an Ottoman soldier of Albanian origin who was held captive by Greeks. Simple as that, build consensus for such illogical additions rather than disruptive edit warring. Botushali (talk) 07:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The only disruption is from you. The stable version described him as "Greek", per the overwhelming number of sources, for a long time until you showed up and started edit-warring to remove well sourced information. There are simply too many source that describe him as Greek, and that's all that matters. Your own criteria for who isn't and isn't Greek are simply of no relevance. Khirurg (talk) 14:51, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * On what exactly do they base his Greekness? He was an Arvanite, and betrayed the Greek revolutionaries, conspiring with Ottoman authorities. Alltan (talk) 15:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, so if working with Greeks for a short period of time qualifies as making someone Greek, I can work in a Greek restaurant and then be considered Greek? That’s interesting. Bibliography calls him an Arvanite. There is nothing that makes him Greek. Botushali (talk) 15:08, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Nothing makes him Greek. Did read the multitude of sources in the article? Your own criteria for what makes someone Greek are of no relevance. Khirurg (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * He never had a Greek citizenship. He never lived in any indipendent greek country. His ethnicity was arvanite. His mother language was arvanite varian of Albanian. What makes him greek? That just a typical case of POV pushing. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 15:25, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Sources describe Androutsos as Greek in the specific context of the years he served as commander of the Greek forces in the Greek Revolution. Before and after those few years of his life he can not be described as Greek. That description is undue and would introduce historical inaccuracy in the lead sentence of the article. – Βατο (talk) 15:31, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Concur with Bato. Alltan (talk) 15:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No that's completely wrong: there are several sources in the article that describe him as Greek during his services in Ali Pasha's court (see detailed descriptions in Gallant, Braddlock, Georgiou). I suggest you need to read the article in order to acquire a neutral view on the issue. For future reference Androutsos was among the Greeks that served in Ali's army, simply because he was Greek per MOSBIO.Alexikoua (talk) 20:29, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that the initiative to remove the relevant quotes by Gallant, Braddlock, Georgiou [] is not a serious argument to get rid of Androutsos' description of being one of the Greek military commanders in Ali's service. Izabella can also stay but Izabella doesn't contradicting the rest of the cited material. In general "Armatole" doesn't mean "non-Greek" even if this is about an armatole in Ali's court.Alexikoua (talk) 03:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You are introducing out of context misleading material. You should explain what makes Anrdoutsos a "Greek military commander" when serving Ali Pasha. We know that he was an Arvanite, Beckett (2001) obviously refers to him as a military commander of the Greek revolution, while Gallant (2015) most likely refers to the religious allegiance as he mentions "the Muslim Omar Vryonis from Berat and the Greek Odysseus Androutsos". Anyway, Isabella (2023) does not provide out of context ahistorical information, but clarifies Androutsos allegiances during his life. The article should reflect that and you should not introduce misleading undue content. – Βατο (talk) 08:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Here is a clarification of what happened with Ali's rule as per Fleming (2021): So, do not insert out of context material that makes the article ahistorical. – Βατο (talk) 12:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pardon me but I fail to see any mention of Androutsos in your quote. In fact Androutsos & Karaiskakis were the most prominent Greek military commanders in Ali's army (I can count at least 8 Greek commanders there). Breckett obviously refers to the Ali Pasha era as seen from the context. You need to read the citation carefully.Alexikoua (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

* Alexikoua (talk) 19:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems he is referring to religion in this case, as he mentions Muslim Omar Vryonis. Alltan (talk) 20:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * As alreday asked by several editors, Alexikoua should provide a reasonable explanation why Androutsos can be considered a "Greek" within the context of his service under Ali Pasha's authority. Androutsos was Arvanite by ethnicity, Albanian by language, and Orthodox Christian by religion. Old 20th century scholarship often considers Orthodox Christian Albanian-speaking people to be Greek even before the Greek Revolution, when it was not the case, this is why we should rely on more recent publications. I suggest to avoid random additions of undue content into the article. – Βατο (talk) 08:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Seeing an expressed desire that those shaping the article "should rely on more recent publications", I am intervening in this discussion only to quote a few sentences from one the most recent mainstream synthetical work on the Greek Revolution.
 * "Greek Rumeliots and Albanian chieftains had made acquaintances in Ali Pasha’s army as brothers in arms. This relationship lasted throughout the Revolution. The longstanding friendship of Varnakiotis and Androutsos with Omer Vrioni is the best-known case. This acquaintance paved the way for easy negotiations between the Rumeliot chieftains and the Ottoman authorities, the so-called kapakia." (Dimitrios Papastamatiou (2021), "Military Leaders" in Kitromilides & Tsoukalas (eds.), The Greek Revolution: A Critical Dictionary (Boston, MA: Harvard University Press), pp. 415-6.) Ashmedai 119 (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That quote from Papastamatiou does not explicitly suggest that Androutsos is a Greek. As Bato has pointed out above, most bibliography that discusses Androutsos with the term ‘Greek’ usually refer to the contextual background of his service on the Greek side of the Greek War of Independence. It’s established that he is an Arvanite. Botushali (talk) 03:17, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, and that alone is sufficient to describe him as Greek in the lede sentence. Khirurg (talk) 03:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ‘Arvanite’ and ‘Ottoman’ are actually more reasonable based on his allegiance at the time of his death and his actual ethnic background. ‘Greek’ is undue. Botushali (talk) 03:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with "Ethnicity". "Ethnicity" is irrelevant because it does not into the lede per WP:MOSETHNICITY. Nationality on the other hand, should go into the lede. And nationally, he was Greek. The Greek state has existed since 1822, and it made him one of his generals. Btw, can you find a single source that uses that Albanian spelling you added to the infobox? Or did you just come up with it yourself? Khirurg (talk) 03:30, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * He abandoned the Greek cause and died in Ottoman service. He died as an Ottoman soldier, not a Greek. You are pushing a narrative that falls under WP:UNDUE.
 * 'Odise Andruci' is his name in Albanian. That is the name used by a number of Albanian sources. Refrain from accusing me of making up names, because you are always wrong. Just search it up and you will be able to find it. Botushali (talk) 03:35, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Commanders back then switched sides frequently, and Androutsos is a prime example of that. But for most of the war, he was loyal to Greece. I'm sure he has a name in Albanian, the question I asked you is, do you have a single English-language source for that? The fact that you are refusing to answer this simple question makes me think you don't have one one and just made that up. Btw, are you aware that "Androutsos" is a Greek name, and it wasn't his birth name, right? Khirurg (talk) 03:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Does not change he was killed by the Greeks as an Ottoman soldier. As I said, calling him a 'Greek' is WP:UNDUE.
 * Yes, I am aware his birth name is not "Androutsos", yet in Albanian he is called Andruci. I do not see anything on Template:Native name or WP:USEENGLISH that says his native name must be written in English-language sources to be a native name. If you can pull out the specific policy which says this, then I will self-RV where required without issue. Usage in English language sources is important for the article's name. Botushali (talk) 03:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Your continued WP:STONEWALL evasion of providing a single English-language source that uses that spelling confirms that you don't have one. You may succeed in having your way this time thanks to brute-force edit warring, but know that what was rammed through without consensus may well be removed without consensus at a later date. Khirurg (talk) 03:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You can throw accusations about "brute-force edit warring" and whatever else, but you still fail to provide a policy that states native names must be used by English sources. If that's the case, then 'Οδυσσέας Ανδρούτσος' should be removed too. The vast majority of English-speakers cannot even read that, let alone see it in English-language sources...
 * Also, is that a threat at the end there? Your tone seems to sit along the lines of WP:BATTLE. "Brute-force" is also quite wild; this is Wikipedia, not a military campaign. Botushali (talk) 04:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * What's WP:BATTLE is your edit-warring across multiple articles, ramming things into articles without consensus. Anyway, we're done here. Khirurg (talk) 04:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, Mark Mazower, The Greek Revolution: 1821 and the Making of Modern Europe (Penguin, 2021), p. 117: "The bewildering twists and turns of local leaders in the region shadowed Ali Pasha’s shifting fortunes. Three of his most trusted Albanian lieutenants switched to fight for the Sultan, and then against him, and then for him again, all within the space of a year. They had their Greek counterparts, men such as Georgios Karaïskakis and Odysseus Androutsos, both later hailed as heroes of the revolution." Ashmedai 119 (talk) 11:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ashmedai for your valuable contribution. But as you can see, there is a group of editors that fights very hard to prevent the addition of any material to the article that they don't like. Khirurg (talk) 23:33, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Excactly a small group of editors are simply pushing their wp:POV (now adding the Albanian name twice in infobox) and removing information based on published scholarship by replacing it with unpublished PhD thesis. I don't believe they are willing to discuss the issue since they just rely on stubborn revert fire-power.Alexikoua (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wp:POV? Lets imagine him as an ethnic albanian Lefter Talo. Minus the fact that Greece disnt exist at Odise times and Lefter Talo actually died for Albania and didnt switch to Germans. You could add the Greek name in Lefter Talo and we wouldn't add the Albanian name on Androutsos? Thats Reciprocity. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 18:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You need to stick to the sources, as Ashmedia noted he was Greek, imagine Skanderbeg (who served the Sultan 20+ years) being non-Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 20:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Whatever point you are trying to make, Skanderbeg was not the kind of Androutsos. Skanderbeg died fighting the Sultan, Androutosos died fighting Greeks for the Sultan. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thats completely irrelevant Skanderbeg was ethnically Albanian and his allegiance was to Albania when he died..... wait ! Are you implying that Androutsos was Greek ETHNICALLY? Not an Arvanite? Is this whole conversation about the ethnicity? If thats so I'll leave this conversation here. Sorry but this doesnt even need discussions. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 00:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Androutosos died fighting Greeks for the Sultan.? You are obviously talking about another person & not this one. Androutsos was a Greek military commander and sholarship is in agreement that he was a Greek military personality. You need to be carefull about ahistorical claims about him dying for the Sultan.. Ashmedai 119 clearly stated that your are completely wrong on this you need to follow wp:MOSBIO. Alexikoua (talk) 01:47, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Alex, you should read WP:DROPTHESTICK. The sources used by Ashmedai make no comment whatsoever that refute the facts about Androutsos' actions prior to his death. Indeed, Androutsos deserted the Greek side and instead elected to fight with the Ottomans against the Greeks. He was captured as an Ottoman soldier and executed as such. Therefore, as he was fighting on the side of the Ottoman Empire at the time of his death, he was very much so a soldier of the Ottoman Sultan. You should stop going around in pointless circles and accept that Androutsos betrayed the Greeks and turned his rifle on them - he died as an Ottoman of Albanian origin. He was not part of the Greek state when he died and he is also not an ethnic Greek, he was only considered Greek in reference to his military service on the Greek side, which was a small phase of his life. You are really getting deep into WP:JDL territory. Botushali (talk) 05:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You are obviously talking about another person & not this one. Androutsos was a Greek military commander and sholarship is in agreement that he was a Greek military personality. The article, its lede and its infobox say his last military allegiance was with the Ottoman Empire, not with the Greek state. But you might have a point: in nationalist narratives, such as the ones of Balkan state-building fairy tales, the term "hero" might have a different meaning. After all, other "heroes" started to kill each other when political and economic interests came to conflict. Very "heroic" and "patriotic", right? Anyways, this tp is not about Skanderbeg and Androutsos' Ottoman and Greek opponents. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Androutsos was of Albanian origin, but only from his father's side. From his mother's side he was of Greek origin it seems. Anyhow, that does not mean much as in the end he decided to die for the Sultan and not for any Greek or Albanian national cause. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If anything, ‘Ottoman’ is the most plausible national description we can prescribe to him. He was born into the Ottoman state and died fighting for it against the Greeks. Botushali (talk) 16:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not in a position to properly enter a discussion that would communicate the apparent misunderstanding of the concept of ethnicity as identical to biological descent on the part of some editors above. Nonetheless, I would like to note that it would be helpful if everyone took into account what is properly stated in the lead of the relevant article of this encyclpedia, i.e. that a person's or a group's ethnic identity relates to "*perceived* shared attributes".

I also understand that a further complication (making claims without proper reference to source material) derives from the fact that Androutsos's life has not been the subject of a comprehensive scholarly publication in recent years, with the exception of the MPhil thesis of Tatiana Menelaidou (who is sadly misnamed in the article's references) and despite the valuable discoveries in Ottoman archives that confirmed his being a traitor to the Greek revolution. A lengthy discussion of Androutsos's course up to the eruption of the Greek revolution has been the topic of a study by Panagiotis Stathis (see here or here for a short CV) -- who has been writing a PhD on the historiography of the Revolution and has already published a more general piece critizing the narrative of traditional Greek national(ist) historiography regarding the integration of armed chieftains in the Revolution (see Panagiotis Stathis, "From klephts and armatoloi to Revolutionaries", pp. 167 ff.). The study on Androutsos has not yet been published, for reasons that are not related to the present discussion; however, an early condensed form has been published by Stathis in a literary magazine aimed to promoting the public understanding of academic history. I hope it will be found useful in reaching an agreement to quote a relevant passage from this early version of Stathis's article:


 * English translation: "[While growing in the Ionian islands] He [=Odysseas] participates in social milieus that receive more or less via diffusion the gradual elevation of Greek antiquity that occurs in the literary circles of modern Greek Enlightenment: from his letters of the revolutionary era he seems to know and admire the ancient Greeks, he has formed consciousness of the descent of modern Greeks from the ancients and has basic knowledge of Greek history. Beside, his name itself belongs in the context of these movements of embracing antiquity as they were diffused in wider Orthodox populations. [...] Later as a captain of eastern mainland Greece, before and during the revolution, he collects ancient monuments, contributes to the foundation of schools, the publication of a newspaper and in a fruitless attempt to found a museum of antiquities in Athens. These actions and lots of loci of his correspondence testify the importance he attributed to education. As he writes to Neophytos Vamvas in 1823: "I shall describe to other how many woes we suffer due to the lack of Greek-saving teachings, to you I say that Greek education is totally gone from fighting Greece... Hence ecce the most suitable position, fellow citizen, to teach the children of the Greeks the virtue, the patriotism and the wisdom of our ancestors" and he invites him to come and teach in Athens. These actions and opinions are undoubtedly primarily due to the climate of the Revolution and the deep changes that it effected on consciences, yet in the case of Androutsos it seems theat they find conducive receptors in elements of the education he had in the environment of Eptanisa and later Yannina."


 * Greek original: "Μετέχει σε κοινωνικά περιβάλλοντα τα οποία δεξιώνονται, λιγότερο ή περισσότερο διαθλασμένα, τη σταδιακή ανάδειξη της ελληνικής αρχαιότητας που λαμβάνει χώρα στους λόγιους κύκλους του νεοελληνικού Διαφωτισμού: από επιστολές του της περιόδου της Επανάστασης φαίνεται ότι γνωρίζει και θαυμάζει τους αρχαίους Έλληνες, έχει διαμορφώσει συνείδηση της καταγωγής των Νεοελλήνων από τους αρχαίους και κατέχει βασικές γνώσεις ελληνικής ιστορίας. Το ίδιο το όνομά του, άλλωστε, εντάσσεται στο πλαίσιο αυτών των κινήσεων επανεγκόλπωσης της αρχαιότητας όπως διαχέονται στους ευρύτερους ορθόδοξους πληθυσμούς. [...] Αργότερα, ως καπετάνιος ανατολικής Στερεάς, προ και κατά την Επανάσταση, συλλέγει αρχαία μνημεία, συμβάλλει στην ίδρυση σχολείων, στην έκδοση εφημερίδας και σε ατελέσφορη απόπειρα ίδρυσης μουσείου αρχαιοτήτων στην Αθήνα. Αυτές οι ενέργειες, αλλά και πλείστα τεμάχια της επιστολογραφίας του, μαρτυρούν για τη σημασία που αποδίδει στην παιδεία. Όπως γράφει στον Νεόφυτο Βάμβα το 1823: «Εις άλλους θέλω περιγράφει πόσα κακά πάσχομεν διά την έλλειψιν ελληνοσωτηρίων διδασκαλιών, προς εσέ δε λέγω ότι η ελληνική παιδεία έλλειψε διόλου από την αγωνιζομένην Ελλάδα... Όθεν ιδού η αρμοδιωτέρα θέσις, συμπολίτα, να διδάξης των Ελλήνων τα τέκνα, την ανδρείαν, την φιλοπατρία και την σοφίαν των προγόνων μας", και τον προσκαλεί να έρθει να διδάξει στην Αθήνα. Αναμφίβολα οι ενέργειες και οι απόψεις αυτές οφείλονται πρωτίστως στο κλίμα της Επανάστασης και στις βαθιές αλλαγές που επέφερε στις συνειδήσεις, εντούτοις στην περίπτωση του Ανδρούτσου φαίνεται ότι βρίσκουν πρόσφορες υποδοχές σε στοιχεία της παιδείας που πήρε στο επτανησιακό και αργότερα στο γιαννιώτικο περιβάλλον." (Παναγιώτης Στάθης (2003), "Ο Οδυσσέας Ανδρούτσος πριν τον ξεσηκωμό", in: Οδυσσέας Ανδρούτσος, Ελευθεροτυπία - Ιστορικά, pp. 9-10) Ashmedai 119 (talk) 06:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Surely could be that he loved ancient greece, greek culture and language. Just like me an Orthodox Albanian (i practice Hellenic Paganism for cultural purpouses/experience also since im an archaeologist) from Fier. That doesnt make neither of us Greeks. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 08:12, 6 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The passage I quoted in my previous message does not describe Androutsos as simply a lover of ancient greek culture, that is a philhellene. It says that he was involved in the re-evaluation and acceptance of Greek antiquity that formed an integral part of the modern Greek Enlightenment and that he displayed a consciousness of the idea of descent from the ancient Greeks. May I ask you to please re-read the passage above, while drawing your attention to the inrepretation of his personal name and the passage of his correspondence in which he asks Neophytos Vamvas to teach "the children of Greeks the virtue, the patriotism and the wisdom of our ancenstors"?
 * A proper understanding of the passage might help to explain why (notwithstanding his being of half-Arvanite descent, i.e. on the part of his father, and a speaker of the Albanian language -- whether he picked it up via his family or in Ali's court) Odysseas is described, in contradistinction with Ali's "Albanian lieutenants", as "Greek" by contemporary scholarship like Mark Mazower, whom I quoted above, but was sadly hitherto ignored by almost everyone in this discussion. Ashmedai 119 (talk)
 * you are selecting some sources while ignoring others. William St Clair (2008) p. 239 – Βατο (talk) 08:42, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Alexikoua, before adding undue content in the section Early life, you should provide sources that reject the information that he was an Arvanite. – Βατο (talk) 09:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem is that some editors think in terms of mutually exclusive categories. Being an Arvanite and being Greek are not mutually exclusive, in fact the opposite. Even the source you have posted above describes him as Greek. Btw he was only Arvanite on his father's side, his mother was Greek. "Tsarlamba" is a Greek last name, and she was form Preveza, which did not have a significant Arvanite presence. Khirurg (talk) 13:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * All these arguments are irrelevant. His allegiances clearly make the description "Greek military and political commander" in the lead sentence of the article WP:UNDUE. – Βατο (talk) 14:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * He is chiefly notable for his actions on behalf of the Greek cause. The fact that he switched allegiance a few months before his death does not change that. He achieved fame and notability as a Greek military commander, and that's what matters in the end. Khirurg (talk) 18:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Bato: His father was an Arvanite from Livanates while his mother from Preveza (her family weren't Arvanites). @Ktrimi: nationalist narratives in the Balkans tend to preserve a stubborn point about national identity: for example Skanderbeg was an Albanian regardless if he served the Sultan for 20+ years, the same happens with Omer Vrioni: he switched sides multiple times nevertheless he is considered Albanian (not Turk), on the other hand I wonder what makes Androutsos' vulnerable in terms of national identity: he was a leading military and administrative official in the Greek revolutionary government. He switched sides as part of his short term ambitions? So what? Vrioni did so too (and did it multiple times), but he was still Albanian in historiography.Alexikoua (talk) 03:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * He is described as "Greek military and political commander" in scholarship, that's definitely not undue, in fact he was among the leading Greek military and political commanders in the first years of the revolution.Alexikoua (talk) 03:52, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I see the nature of the discussion has changed in the short time since I began to participate in it. I first commented in reply to a request for a piece of contemporary (not "Old 20th century") scholarship that "would provide a reasonable explanation why Androutsos can be considered a "Greek" within the context of his service under Ali Pasha's authority", as this was presented as prohibitive for describing Odysseas as "Greek" in the first sentence of the article's lead and offered Mazower and Papastamatiou. I now read that all this is "irrelevant" as what matters is Odysseas's "allegiances", which supposedly render "undue" his description as "Greek". I (along with Papastamatiou and Mazower -- who, against the false claim that I now see has been made in previous discussions in this talk page that he "avoids national/ethnic description(s) for many figures including Androutsos", describes Odysseas as a "Greek" chieftain of Ali in contradistinction with his Albanian counterparts) would beg to say that this is puzzling.

I fail to see how the fact that Odysseas was an Ottoman subject for most of his life means that it is undue to describe him as Greek. Were there no Ottoman Greeks? Is the problem located in the fact that, as per Ottoman documentation, he commited treason in 1825 and was executed for this crime in the same year? I do not see Vidkun Quisling not being described as "Norwegian" or Georgios Poulos not being described as "Greek" on account of this -- and rightly so. Or, does a historical agent have to be a Greek citizen throughout or for the most part of his life to be described as "X"? If so, does this mean that the description of e.g. Mercurio Bua, who was certainly not an Albanian citizen at any point in his life, should be removed from the relevant article's introduction? I believe not and Odysseas presents a similar case. Now, St Clair (in whose hands, per the introduction (p. xviii) of Roderick Beaton, the editor of the book's second edition, Odysseus "fares even worse" than Kolokotronis, as "St Clair seems to share the preference of most philhellenes for those with a western education and values, such as Mavrokordatos"), when discussing -in the passage Bato quoted above (from p. 239)- the encounter of the Philhellens with the "political scene" of revolted Greece, presents Odysseas's securing of personal power at a local level as his sole "ambition" of Odysseas. May I add that this is not incongruous with being Greek or with the study I referred to by Panagiotis Stathis, who argues in the closing paragraph of his article on Odysseas's course until the Revolution (p. 16) that Odysseas's "strategic planning to act in these circumstances [of the eruption of the Greek Revolution] in a way that elevates him into a leading figure in the new political entity taking place". The fact that Odysseas was one of the persons engaging in revolutionary action also because "they see, in the framework of political limitations and tactical choices at display in given circumstance that their investment in the Revolution can elevate their socioeconomic place" (Stathis, ibid.) does not make him less of a "typical Greek of the time", as St Clair also states.

The only possibly legitimate objection I can fathom to inserting the word "Greek" in the article's first sentence is that the phrase "Greek military and political commander" can misleadingly communicate to the article's readers the false impression that the person hereby presented was indeed a Greek citizen active as a part of the Greek state's army throughout his life. In order to secure that any possible misunderstanding is avoided, the relevant part of the article's first sentence could be reformulated not with the phrase "was a Greek military and political commander" but with "was a Greek armatolos". An armatolos being by definition somebody operating with authority granted by the Ottoman state, no such misunderstanding could possibly arise. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 05:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Excellent analysis and suggestion, I fully endorse. If it is also true that he was raised in Ithaca by his Greek mother's relatives and never met his father, it is highly unlikely he learned Arvanitika as a child, and thus the Albanian spelling of his name is undue in the infobox. Btw, since you are highly knowledgeable on the subject, you may want to have a look at the Armatoles article. Khirurg (talk) 14:36, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Undue weight issues initially pointed out by several editors remain, even if you have quoted some other sources. Sorry, but he was not an Ottoman Greek, that would be even more misleading. You are introducing the projection of naturalization of an ethnic Albanian-Greek into the Greek nation in a historical period when the concept did not yet exist. And he did not serve Ali Pasha as a "Greek armatole",  In terms of ethnicity, as per WP:NPOV you should not neglect his Albanian strain and highlight his Greek strain. In terms of allegiance he began his career and ended it serving Ottoman Albanian rulers. Your WP:UNDUE proposal completely ignores current bibliography. Anyway, this is my last comment here, I am not so interested in Androutsos per se, but I strongly oppose the POV nonsense narrative that he was a "Greek armatole" of Ali Pasha. – Βατο (talk) 08:14, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Since when the notion of the Greek nation did not exist during the Ottoman times and the notion of the Albanian nation existed? Have you ever read the writings of Georgios Gemistos Plethon or John Argyropoulos?? Romiosyni has evolved to the modern Hellenism and the notion of the nation survived through the Greek Orthodox Patriachate and subsequently the church. Arguing the that is a clear strawman. There were plenty Ottoman Greek communities around Europe and most notably the Phanariotes who were the majority of Greek descent. Othon I (talk) 11:08, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * As you mentioned it, Greek survived as a religion not always an ethnicity. See Arbëreshë people, they left Modern Albania and Modern Greece being called Greci by the latins while speaking Albanian (which they still do) and they were called Greci only because of the Orthodox religion. The same case its with Androutsos, he was an Albanian of Greece (Arvanite). RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No this is your poor interpretation of what i stated. Romiosini has evolved to modern Hellenism. The fact that there was a church that kept the customs does not change the fact that the people who during the medieval were identifying as Rhomaioi became the modern Greeks. Sames as the Albanians, they never identified as such - it is an exonym. The people who are the modern Greeks, or the Ottoman Greeks and on never lost their notion of nation and the fact that there is an organised chuch bearing that name can expalin a lot - read Beatons book. On the contrary, it should puzzle you the total anarchy of religion that exists in Albania and why the Arvanites find the designation Albanian offensive... That said, Arvanites and other people who were Orthodox Christians have abandonded theire roots long before your debate here - just because there was no notion of a nation as such, only a language - poor language which could be seen in derogatory terms, thats why the official language even in Ali Pasha's court was Greek. I do not see why not a person such Androutsos cannot be referred to as Ottoman Greek. Othon I (talk) 13:01, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Personal opinions of commoners during the ages have nearly 0 importance. Like it or not Arvanites are Albanians (Not Shqiptar Albanians neccessarily). And the language Arvanitika as called in Greek (Arbërisht in Arvanitika while greek is Shklerisht) is an Albanian Language. Rhomeioi became Hellenes not Greeks. Greek was always a religion not a nation. While Arvanite is just the old name of Alvanos in diminutive. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 13:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I could not care less what Arvanites are. The moved to mainland Greece during the middle ages from an area known by Anna Komnene as Arvanon. Now they are integral part of the Greek nation. As for "Greek" is a religion. No thats the funniest thing I ever heard, Greek is the exonym of the Hellenes and subsequently of the Rhomaioi since they were Greek speakers and a good majority of them of that extraction, as they were known to the Germanics, the Latins, the Celts and the Slavs, the other major cultures of Europe. Its similar to the Albanians, they self identify as Shqiptars, Arbereshe, Ghegs, Tosks whatever but known to the others as Albanians - same for Germans, self identify as Deutsche but called by the others Germans - is just an exonym. You can see it here for example Greece Runestones. The religion is Orthodox Christianity not "Greek", the "Greek" part is because of the language of the rite (and because the Roman Catholics used the word Roman due to the seat of the pope and legitimacy) and the fact that has been started by the Rhomaioi in 330 AD and still stands there... Othon I (talk) 16:04, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Exactly! Just like Greeks is the exonym of Hellene. Arvanite is an exonym for Arbër/Albanians. We dont separate Greeks and Hellenes so why would Albanians and Arvanites be separated? And since Arvanitika is a dialect/variant of Albanian the native Albanian name should stay in the lede. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 17:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Because the majority of the Arvanites wished to do so and because the Arvanitika has been written in Greek. Should we write the German (Fränkisch) name to every French? The Norwegian name to every Norman? Or the German name to every English? I think this paranoia need to stop, even if you present it like that which is outdated since your script has been decided in the Congress of Monastir from the Kyriazides it is completely irrelevant to the notability of the Androutsos - most probably he didn’t give a jack shit for “Albania” whatever it was back then… Othon I (talk) 18:00, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I am not sure who thought that describing Odhise Andruci as being an Ottoman Greek was a good idea, needless to say that such absurd and provocative edits will not be maintained. Nishjan (talk) 10:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Those sound a lot like fighting words. You haven't addressed the arguments presented above. Edit-warring while issuing ultimatums is a real bad idea. Khirurg (talk) 14:45, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed specific editors need to be careful in posting such battle-fashioned declarations. Nishjan owes an apology to the community.Alexikoua (talk) 15:31, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Describing an ethnic Albanian as an Ottoman Greek in the lead is indeed completely absurd and fringe. It is obviously not going to stay, this kind of blatant POV-pushing has no place on Wikipedia. I think that it would be great if both of you would apologize for your actions, it would be a great start for atoning for your rather extremely controversial editing history. Nishjan (talk) 16:31, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you actually read this discussion?He was not Albanian, his mother was Greek and he was raised by her relatives and did not speak a word of Albanian until later in life. Now, do you have anything to contribute to this discussion, instead of making WP:BATTLE inflammatory comments? Khirurg (talk) 16:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like you didn't read neither the discussion nor the article, what was the ethnicity of his father again? Also, about the supposed Greek origin of his mother, I would need more reliable sources than this one obscure source we currently have. Nishjan (talk) 16:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Androutsos never met his father, and didn't speak a word of Albanian until much later in life. You really need to stop with the edit-warring now. Khirurg (talk) 17:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Even if that was true, it doesn't change the fact that his father was an ethnic Albanians. Also, I am not sure if you realized but you are the one that is currently edit-warring with multiple editors. Do I have to remind you of your very long block log, for exactly this kind of behavior? Nishjan (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The fact that his father was an "ethnic Albanians", does not make him not Greek. User:Ashmedai119 laid out a very convincing case of why "Ottoman Greek armatolos" is due, and no one, including you, was able to present a valid counterargument. I see you have also resumed the inflammatory talkpage comments. Maybe you think taunting opponents about past blocks is a clever way to hurt them, but I can assure you it will come back to bite you when it is brought to admin attention. Consider this your final warning. Khirurg (talk) 17:21, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Chillax... whats with the bites and hurtings? Final warning about what? This whole discussion should have been brought to admins 1 week ago. For all the cases of arvanite native names not only for Odysseas. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 17:43, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Describing an ethnic Albanian... I believe it's time to calm down. Being a half Arvanite doesn't make him ethnic Albanian. Arvanites settled in southern Greece several centuries before. Fact is that bibliopgraphy is in agreement and describes him as Greek. If you have objections against wp:MOSBIO you need to fill a case in ANI. That simple.Alexikoua (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Arbërorë/Arbëreshë were ethnic Albanians until 1821. Those editors who regard the Arbëror/Arbëresh people as Greeks before the 1820s are completely into WP:FRINGE territory, and their unreasonable arguments should not be taken into consideration. – Βατο (talk) 18:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Odysseas Androutsos was born on a Greek island to a Greek mother, was raised as a Greek, speaking Greek as his mother tongues. Your argument is irrelevant and should not be taken into consideration. Khirurg (talk) 18:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The most important is that bibliography is clear on him about being a Greek leader: a mountain of sources are in full agreement on that, nevertheless wp:IDONTLIKEIT tendency is quite stubborn by presenting ahistorical views that he "died as a Turk" and similar low quality views without historical background.Alexikoua (talk) 22:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You are very good at writting as much "Greek" as you can. There are 117 mentions of "Greek" in this article and the 14 albanian ones are separated 10 albanian 4 arvanite. And you claim to add more Greek in the lede since arvanite already is? Then why your Greek should be on the top of infobox while arvanite is half mentioned in the bottom of infobox? Is greek better and more important than arvanite? He was not born on a "Greek Island" but on a Venetian island. Show your sources why his mother was ethnic Greek and Greek speaning.(Ethnic Hellene not just Greek Orthodox like i am). Also who was he raised from should be in the Early Life section. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 06:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * , evidently your demand: "His Arvanite heritage is mentioned in the lede, so should his Greek heritage" is already satisfied: "Born in Ithaca, the son of an Arvanite klepht and privateer from Roumeli, he was raised by his Greek mother's family of notables from Preveza in the Ionian islands." Didn't you notice it? – Βατο (talk) 07:24, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * His mother surely should be mentioned as his father i agree. But as per who raised him should be in the early life section not on the lede. Adding that to the lede its a tentative to highlight the greek side as "more important" or "influental" on his life. Which is not NPOV. On the lede should be the mentions of his parents as they are already there then any detail like if they were there or absent or left or whatever should be on the early life section. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 09:17, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well of course the Greek side was more influential. He was born on a Greek island to a Greek mother, raised by her Greek relatives, spoke Greek as his mother tongue. He never met his father and learned Arvanitika much later in life. What you are saying is basically a form of false equivalence. Khirurg (talk) 13:15, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

When reading the last comments in the discussion, I became confirmed in my previously expressed view that the disagreement regarding the description of Odysseas as Greek or not derives the combination of (a) an insufficient contact with or consideration for the sources dealing with Odysseas (both primary and secondary) and the historical circumstances of his live and (b) a fundamental misunderstanding of the notion of "ethnicity" and "ethnic identity".

I now understand that it is indispensable to deal with the latter issue first. I think that this becomes most apparent when reading the comments by RoyalHeritageAlb above. Royal Heritage Alb claims that for the article and its introduction to conform with the encyclopedia's policy on neutrality it is necessary to equally "highlight" both "sides" of Odysseas's descent, what s/he viewes -if I understand it correctly- as Greek and Albanian heritage, with the circumstances of his upbringing being a "detail" that should be ommitted from the introduction. "Is greek better and more important than arvanite?" s/he asks. For this editor, and it seems for other editors as well, ethnic descriptions are a matter of attributing equal value and importance in presenting a person's parentage and biological origins. However, a contemporary or historical agent's ethnic identity is not identical to biological descent. Ethnicity/Ethnic identity is not an objective given, that originates from the admixture of supposedly different biological traits that pertain to one's parents according to their origins. Ethnicity/Ethnic identity is part of a person's self-conception that is constructed as part of his/her identity formation and socialisation. Though it seems to treat the concept in a contemporary and not historical setting, referring primarily to the US, this encyclopedia's article on ethnic identity development is sufficient to provide a general view of the concept.

It is only when this misconception of ethnicity as a supposedly biological trait gives way to its proper understanding as part of a person's social self-perception that those insisting that Odysseas, being the son of an Arvanite, can not be Greek will be able to discuss relevant sources (secondary and also primary), that they understand why it is not against the encyclopedia's policy of neutrality to state that Odysseas was raised for the first (c.15-22) years of his life in an environment influenced by modern Greek Enlightenment ideas, that they will be able to fathom why it is not "absurd and provocative" [!] (as Nishjan asserted) to share -as I do- in Mazower's characterization of Odysseas as Greek when he served under Ali and that this discussion will have a chance of reaching a consensus on the increasingly various matters it has been dealing with. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 07:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It's been well over 3 weeks since the above posting, and no one who has edit-warred has bothered to provide a rebuttal. Therefore, per WP:SILENT, I see no issue with modifying the lede in accordance with the above proposal. Khirurg (talk) 20:33, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you perhaps provide the quote about his mother being Greek? Alltan (talk) 11:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources for weighting and article structure
Bato removed information sourced by several academic sources and replaced it with info by one unpublished PhD, nevertheless that's clear violation per wp:HISTRS. Published academic material should be preferred especially when unpublished material is in straight contradiction with scholarship.Alexikoua (talk) 03:54, 5 July 2023 (UTC)