Talk:Oh Shenandoah

Cantus
Cantus is an acappella group that sings this song, but their lyrics are very different. Can anybody write them down for me? 67.78.21.14 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I found the lyrics. loulou 21:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

James Erb
James Erb has another version of the song that has been widely known among choirs for years. Should I write it down as an alternate version?

loulou 21:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

from david love, australia,

As an australian of   scots-irish  descent  i understand   this   song   to  have  originated from   the  scots-irish settlers of   the  mid-atlantic  coast of   the   united  states  (  ie  virginia). The  seven long  years  since  last  i saw  thee  refers to   the  common terms  of  indenture in   the   settlement   days  under   which a  young  man (or  woman ) could  be  moved just  about  anywhere. The  song is an  expression  of  longing to see a  sweetheart  again  after seven  years  of  indenture  presumably across   the   wide   missouri. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.9.37 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 22 February 2007
 * That theory is consistent with the "I'm bound to leave" line. A servant could easily have been required to travel down the Shenandoah R. to reach the Missouri R. The Roud collection includes references to this as a cowboy/western song. Unfortunately, such speculation is out of scope for Wikipedia, which only uses published reliable sources.User:LeadSongDog come howl  23:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Shenandoah, Iowa
I have deleted the paragraph theorizing that Shenandoah, Iowa is the source of this song. It was not incorporated until 1871 and is not a Missouri river crossing. Baileypalblue (talk) 07:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Debate about Shenandoah origins in The Times of 1930
'Oh Shenandoah' seems to have become a big popular choice for concerts etc in England by 1930, so The Times columns hosted one of those debates about origins.(The Times, Friday, Sep 12, 1930; pg. 8; Issue 45616; col B Letters: "Shenandoah" Origin In A Negro Spiritual? A. A. BROOKINGTON.) Some of the suggestions were a bit flaky (e.g. it's a misheard version of the Gregorian chant 'Agnus Dei') but the letter by A.A. Brookington of 87 Canning Street Liverpool quoted sources, dates and a variant version of the first two verses, so I have added a reference to it. Brookington also added that Cecil Sharp collected it from John Short of Watchet, an ex-chanteyman, who was emphatic that it was a "good capstan chantey". On the other hand he notes his source J.E.Laidlaw of San Francisco, who sailed in British sailing ships with mixed black and white crews in the 1890s, considered it a surprising favourite because of "its lack of the usual rhythm for a capstan song." Brookington wonders if therefore the version Sharp collected from John Short had been adapted to make its rhythm suitable for use as a capstan shanty.RLamb (talk) 15:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Out of general curiosity, I'd love to see the 1930 letter by A.A. Brookington, but I've listened repeatedly to every version of "Shenandoah" that I could find, and read what little I could find about its origins, and haven't heard anything, in the sound or lyrics, suggesting any form of 19th century black music.2603:7000:B23D:C116:D9F7:7D99:97F2:FE70 (talk) 20:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

error in "Oh Snenandoah" article link
The Wikipedia article "Oh Shenandoah" contains a link for Alfred Mason Williams but actually goes to an article on Alfred Owen Williams. Both men were poets, but Alfred Mason Williams was primarily a newsman, editor, publisher, and literary scholar. He was born October 23, 1840 in Taunton, Massachusetts and died March 9, 1896 in the West Indies. He wrote and published 4 books including the one cited and was the editor of the Providence Journal in R.I. Horace Greely was his mentor and sent Williams on assignment to Ireland where Williams gathered information for his book on Celtic folk songs in addition to his newspaper work on the trial of the Fenian leaders. Some think that "The Poets and Poetry of Ireland" was Williams' finest bit of literary work.

The link appears in the "Oh Shenandoah" article as printed below:

Alfred Mason Williams' 1895 "Studies in Folk-song and Popular Poetry" called it a "good specimen of a bowline chant".[10]

Respectfully, Booker11 (talk) 16:08, 27 October 2014 (UTC)Vi Wofford

Isn't this song about missing Virginia?
You've gone west and miss home? I think that's the theme. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.41.117.182 (talk) 08:50, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

You're right. I'm not a Virginian, not even an American, but to me it is obvious that the song has nothing to do with Shenandoah the Indian chief. The lyrics wouldn't make any sense. Why the singer would long to hear, or see the father of the girl he is supposed to love? And Shenandoah lived in NY State, nothing to do with the fur trade or the Missouri. If you assume the song is about Shenandoah the river, then it clearly makes sense. A Virginian who is emigrating to the Planes says he longs to hear or see the river Shenandoah, and "loves its daughter", meaning he left a love in the valley (a daughter of the valley, a very common expression then and now). How this is not presented in the article as the main theory (whith the other as an alternative) is beyond me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.39.108.130 (talk) 14:08, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Composer
The composer for this song is unknown, as with most older and traditional folk songs. The infobox parameter is for the actual composer (many modern folk songs, such as those from the 1950s and 1960s, have known composers), not for arrangers or adapters. Softlavender (talk) 22:46, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In many cases, there is a little difference between 'composer' and 'arranger'. A notable arrangement could be considered as a separate work (completely different from the original tune), but, of course, it's an important question. Anyway, we have not to restrict this field only by the first known composer (whose melody could be forgotten in a few years): author of any original and well-known, polular tune could be regarded as a 'composer', I think. --Tamtam90 (talk) 00:41, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not how the infobox works. The composer field is for the composer of the song. The song has a melody that has been carried through time since at least the mid-1800s, and no one knows how it orginated so it is not attributable to a composer. Dozens of 20th-century composers and arrangers have arranged, adapted, or incorporated the work, as with any popular traditional folksong; that in no way makes them the composer or warrants mention in the infobox. Softlavender (talk) 04:22, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe, so "don't work" other infoboxes, but this one do. For any traditional song, it's important to demonstrate its evolution, its different versions (incl. the "incorporated" ones), its arrangers and performers (not only the first, original ones). So do the folklorists and musicologists, so can do any editor. --Tamtam90 (talk) 07:17, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * That is done, as usual, in the body text of the article. The infobox parameter is for the original composer. Softlavender (talk) 09:07, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Genre
The genre parameter in the infobox is for the song's actual genre (which in this case would be traditional folk song), not for how it may have originated or for one single use in its history. Softlavender (talk) 22:48, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Really? But any folk song is a folk song, and any traditional one is traditional. I think, we have no need in such restrictions (because, if so, the song itself could be considered as a genre of an art). --Tamtam90 (talk) 23:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * According to documentation of the Infobox folk song, the children's song (and even the lullaby) are genres (subgenres), as well as the sea shanty. So, please, revert your edit for this param. --Tamtam90 (talk) 00:53, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * It is not a sea shanty. It did not even begin as a sea shanty. "Blow the Man Down" is a sea shanty. "Shenandoah" is a popular traditional folksong that mentions an Indian chief and his daughter, and the Missouri River. "Sea shanty" does not belong in the infobox. For a fairly brief period of time in the middle of song's history it was used on board sea-going vessels as a sea shanty; but it did not begin as a sea shanty, does not mention sailors or the sea, and is not a sea shanty now nor has it been for nearly a century. Softlavender (talk) 04:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Your words and conclusions vs the ones of many WP:RS:
 * e.g.,, , (further reading: )
 * Why have I to agree with you, ignoring the opinions of Christopher Bigsby, the Library of Congress, and Colin Larkin? --Tamtam90 (talk) 10:38, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi Tamtam90, cherrypicking a handful of mentions (an old catalog entry of a single arrangement, passing mentions in a books about theater, does not refute the the fact that this is a traditional American folksong, of uncertain origin, whose lyrics have nothing to do with the sea and everything to do with a river and an Indian chief and his daughter. The fact that it was once used as a sea shanty, not in the beginning, but during in the course of its evolution, does not alter the fact that it is a traditional American folksong of uncertain origin, whose lyrics have nothing to do with the sea, which hasn't been a sea shanty for nearly a century. Your links originate in Russia and you are a Russian speaker; as a Russian you would not be familiar with the common popular use and ubiquity of this very common traditional American folksong, but I can assure you it should not be characterized in the infobox as a sea shanty. These sorts of misunderstandings are exactly why the "genre" parameter is generally deprecated in infoboxes. Softlavender (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC)