Talk:Ohel Rachel Synagogue

Is it a "former" synagogue or not?
I added the word "former" in the lead sentence because the building is not in regular use for religious services, but I'm not certain if that's the right approach. It seems to hold some events on Jewish holidays. Difference engine (talk) 05:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think as long as it's occasionally used for service, it should be considered an active synagogue. So I removed "former". -Zanhe (talk) 00:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * According to the Shanghai Jewish Center, it is in regular use. — Llywelyn II   22:31, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. What should we make of Eric Cantor's visit last year then? Is there a higher standard of "regular" use than what it has now? --Difference engine (talk) 00:42, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm sorry about that. A few hours ago, I would have said "oh he wants all of the week instead of just some of it"... but that was completely wrong. I got to the SJC's site through Google and the first place I went was the history page... which is thorough, if occasionally misspelled, and has some more stuff that hasn't gone in the article yet. Clicking from there to the "Synagogue" link goes to this page, which links to this one. So. That's where that was coming from.


 * On the other hand, Ohel Rachel isn't listed at www.chinajewish.org's main page's list of community locations, although they have pics from Hanukkah there last year. Going back to the other pages, they have 2010 copyrights and ignoring the links and just typing www.chinajewish.org/ohelrachel1 shows that the synagogue was closed to everything except Hanukkah and Yom Kippur services by 2013. (Even though if you click links from that page and then go back to "Synagogue", it takes you back to the one above from 2010...) Like your source about Cantor says: "The Ohel Rachel was reopened briefly in 2010 when Shanghai hosted the world’s fair, but was closed again when the fair ended and is now only used for religions ceremonies on the High Holy Days." Sorry about the confusion. — Llywelyn II   12:08, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Construction date
Just making a note here: there's a little uncertainty on the construction date. Encyclopedia of Diasporas says it was "consecrated on 23 Janurary 1921". Port of Last Resort says it was "dedicated in 1921". The Jewish Communities of China page says it was "presented to the community" in 1920. The WMF page says it was built in 1917. This piece from The Hill says 19th century, but I'm skeptical about that. This wiki page currently reflects the two books, which seem well-researched and both say it was 1921. Hope this is useful. --Difference engine (talk) 23:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * According to the Shanghai Jewish Center, the Ohel Rachel was opened in March 1920 and consecrated on 23 January 1921. It replaced its predecessor, Beth El Synagogue, which was built in 1887. So the correct answer seems to be "all of above" (except 1917, but it could well be the date that construction started). -Zanhe (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Good point. Could change the completed date to March 1920 in the infobox. Maybe we can keep the 1921 date as the inauguration date, or there might be another more appropriate field name available. --Difference engine (talk) 00:15, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Clinton visit
For what it's worth, the source also lists Chelsea Clinton as present. At the moment, she may be non-notable for these purposes ("...and her daughter..."), but it could be added later if warranted. — Llywelyn II   22:31, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Other historic synagogues in Shanghai
The ones I'm aware of are: Ohel Rachel, Ohel Moshe/Moishe, Beth El (1887), Shearith Israel (1898), Beth Aharon (1927), and the New Synagogue (1941). That's six so far, of which the first two remain standing. Any others? --Difference engine (talk) 00:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The Shanghai Chronicle (in Chinese) lists eight. In addition to the six above, there were two more: Broadway and Donghai, both were theatres rented and converted to synagogues to accommodate the inflow of refugees during WWII. They apparently still exist, reverted to their original use as theatres after the war. I guess many sources don't consider these two as real synagogues. -Zanhe (talk) 05:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Very useful! Here's another source in English, The Jews of China. So Beth Aharon replaced Shearith Israel just as Ohel Rachel replaced Beth El. Looks like the Shearith Israel community was an offshoot from the original Beth El community. I wonder what happened to Beth El after it closed. Broadway and Donghai sound like similar arrangements to the rented space that the Ashkenazis used to use before Ohel Moshe was built. Am I understanding that Shanghai Chronicle page as saying Beth El was rented as well, or am I misreading that? --Difference engine (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * It says Beth El was built by David Sassoon and other Sephardi Jews on leased land, but the building itself was not rented. -Zanhe (talk) 06:35, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * This forum thread has one old black and white photo apiece of both the theaters. Elsewhere on the web there are some recent photos of the Broadway as well. --Difference engine (talk) 06:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Which presumably explains the EJ entry on Shanghai saying there were three synagogues in Shanghai? There were only three congregations and only three in use at any one time? — Llywelyn II   07:49, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that's a good way to look at it, although that doesn't account for the two other synagogues Zanhe mentioned. It's possible those two were just too obscure. --Difference engine (talk) 00:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Ohel
Well, I was going to come say that (yes) the literal meaning of ohel is "tent" but the sources glossing the name gave "house" and that seems more felicitous for a house of worship that obviously isn't a tent. But I just saw this article: ohel (grave). Apparently, in Judaism, "ohel" in this context is something like a "shrine"? (which we don't have sources for and thus should use "tent", perhaps linking to the ohel article...) Was Ms Sassoon actually buried there? — Llywelyn II   06:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems like a common prefix for synagogue names, and a common enough word that it doesn't matter too much. Several other Ohel Something Synagogue articles on Wikipedia don't bother with giving the literal meaning. --Difference engine (talk) 06:45, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's good to have the meaning. It's certainly not common knowledge but not really enough to do a whole #Name section. Was just asking about the best gloss. — Llywelyn II   07:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Template
What do you guys think of this, as an alternative to overly-long "See also" sections:

— Llywelyn II   07:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for creating the template,, looks very useful. -Zanhe (talk) 23:39, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I like it. Might want to dispense with the flag. Flag images don't seem too common on the (admittedly few) religion-related navboxes I've looked at (1,2,3), and the PRC flag riles some people up anyway. --Difference engine (talk) 00:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Good point. I was going to replace it with the municipal flag but forgot. Looking around Commons, though, I can find the flag and seal of the old International Settlement and the flag of the Japanese occupation government but not a current one. This does span all three time periods: we could do all three flags with links to their articles, but that's probably a bit much for a religion template. Color ok? and mind if I move this to Template_Talk:Judaism in Shanghai? — Llywelyn II   00:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Bevis Marks?
This source says Ohel Rachel is modeled after the Bevis Marks Synagogue and Lauderdale Road in London, but I don't see this claim mentioned anywhere else. And I don't see any similarity in the architectural styles of Ohel Rachel and Bevis Marks (pictured). Should we remove that claim? -Zanhe (talk) 23:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hard to say, really. It could be that some not-so-obvious structural or interior element was modeled on it. I'm no expert on architecture, so I'm reluctant to make a judgment on appearances. --Difference engine (talk) 00:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have seen the same claim at some of the other sources&mdash;including, off the top of my head, this one and this one&mdash;and OR and BM have similarly-done main entrances. Apart from that, BM's current brick façade appears to be a modern refurbishment and I assume the local Shanghai Jewish community's main page on the history of the temple wouldn't just make that up. DE might be right that what they were mostly talking about were interior elements, though, like the usual 2nd-story gallery overlooking the central sanctuary. — Llywelyn II   06:28, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Inscriptions
This source gives the Inscription over Ohel Rachel's ark,&mdash;the Hebrew for "Know before whom thou stand, before the King of Kings the Holy One, Blessed be He",&mdash;if it's worth mentioning. — Llywelyn II   06:28, 30 January 2015 (UTC)