Talk:Oireachtas Rince na Cruinne/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 09:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

First, here are some points that are not requirements for GA, but which you may wish to fix anyway:
 * You have two dead links:
 * 
 * 
 * Footnotes replaced with live sources. Thanks. Triptothecottage (talk) 10:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You're inconsistent with the italicization of "An Coimisiún Le Rincí Gaelacha" in the bibliography, I think because in one case you're using the website field, and in the other the publisher field. The publisher is probably the right choice if I understand the website correctly; that's the organization behind the PDF, right?
 * Corrected to publisher. Triptothecottage (talk) 10:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure what happened, but that didn't seem to fix it, so I did it myself; please revert if you disagree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:21, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, I fixed one, you fixed another! Thanks. Triptothecottage (talk) 01:51, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You're also inconsistent about using the publisher location field -- e.g. O'Neil (2015), defined in footnote 20, does not have a location, but Cullinane does; Foley doesn't but Venable does.
 * All removed. None necessary for version control. Triptothecottage (talk) 10:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I see you have an undergraduate paper and a master's thesis as sources; I'm not going to ask you to change those for GA, but if you plan to take this to FAC I think you might run into objections, particularly to the undergraduate paper. I see there is explicit academic oversight listed so it might pass muster, but just FYI.
 * One good reason I probably won't worry about trying to get this to FA! Triptothecottage (talk) 10:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

GA issues: -- More this evening. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You have a link to the Daily Mail that goes through Ebsco; I can't see what's being cited, but the Daily Mail is not a reliable source. See this recent discussion.  Can you find another source for this?
 * Both instances removed: one replaced, one deleted. Triptothecottage (talk) 00:30, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The Worlds include competitions: isn't "Worlds" singular here? So it should be "includes"?
 * This is a difficult one. Throughout when referring to "Oireachtas Rince na Cruinne" I have used singular forms; when referring to "the championships" or "the Worlds" I have used plural forms. Not an ideal situation, obviously, but one which reads well in my native Australian English and matches common usage. Would appreciate advice if you have any to offer. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think this is OK, since one can read "The Worlds include" as referring to all the competitions, rather than just a particular year. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Suggest a parenthetical "championship competition" after "oireachtais" in the lead; I know it's linked, but many readers won't know the word and would have to click through.
 * Done. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It has played a role in the globalisation of Irish stepdance and Irish stepdance generally: some repetition here.
 * Good pickup; was supposed to read Irish stepdance and Irish dance generally. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * and, in the 21st century, has been held in both the British Isles outside of Ireland and in North America: not sure what the relevance is of "in the 21st century". Do you mean it has only been held outside Ireland since 2000?
 * Precisely what I mean. Sourced in history and clarified here. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * particularly because of a perceived over-representation of delegates from the Gaelic League: I don't follow this. Was this over-representation in An Coimisiún?  What does it mean to say the Gaelic League was over-represented?  Why would it have been an issue anyway?
 * the majority of overseas teachers who continued to support the event enabled preparations to continue: suggest "the majority of overseas teachers continued to support the event, and this enabled preparations to continue".
 * Adopted your suggestion; thanks. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Michael Flatley, the first North American winner of the World Championships, recalled that his preparation for Oireachtas Rince na Cruinne: I think it would be useful to the reader to know when Flatley first competed -- if it was around 1970, then his recollections are relevant to the early history being described; if later, then it's less relevant.
 * It was at this time: added "in this era" to make it explicit. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * the perceived inferiority of overseas competitors persisted into the early 21st century: whose perception? That of the judges?  Or did the Americans and Australians also feel themselves to be inferior to the Irish dancers?
 * Yes, and yes - but anecdotally. Ideally I would consult the cited source here but I will not be able to access it in a hurry. When I can, I will try to clarify. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Triptothecottage (talk) 03:12, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry, out of time tonight, will continue the review, and respond to your question above, tomorrow (I hope). Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:24, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Continuing: That's it for the body of the article. I still have to spotcheck some of the sources against the content; I will do that this evening if I get time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:53, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The "Early years" section talks about the difficulties faced by overseas competititors but doesn't say when the first non-Irish win occurred -- you give no date for Flatley's win, and it's not clear he was the first non-Irish winner anyway. This is clarified in the "Notable champions" section at the end of the article, but it would good to mention it in the "Early years" section.
 * Have added a little more detail on the Flatley episode as well as more on the Emerald Barrier in general. Triptothecottage (talk) 01:48, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * caused excessive demand for the North American National Championships: I don't think you mean "excessive". Perhaps "excess", or just "additional"?
 * Good point. Have rewritten that sentence to make my point more obvious. Triptothecottage (talk) 01:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Each of the secondary qualifiers is open to international entrants, with the exception of the Australian Championships, but dancers may only qualify at their local secondary qualifier. I don't follow this at all; it seems to directly contradict itself.
 * You are certainly not the first to be bewildered by this! It's important to make the distinction between competing at the event and qualifying as a result of your participation. Suppose, for instance, at the North Americans, the top three are American, Irish and American in that order; only the two Americans may use that result to claim qualification for the Worlds. The Irish dancer would have to qualify at an Irish primary or secondary. I've tried to make this clearer in the footnote, but I'd appreciate you taking another look. Triptothecottage (talk) 02:03, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Elsewhere (no primary qualifier): where does this refer to? Anywhere in the world that has no primary qualifier?  E.g. if a dancer is in South America or Asia, they have no primary, and then their secondary is the All-Ireland or Scottish secondary qualifiers?  Another small-Roman-numeral note within the table would be good to explain this.
 * Have done as you suggested with a note. Please review that change and the changes made to the New Zealand section.
 * This includes dancers whom they have taught in the previous two years, to whom they are related, or whom have been taught by their relatives in the previous two years: suggest "This includes dancers whom they (or their relatives) have taught in the previous two years, or to whom they are related".
 * Adopted close to your suggestion. Triptothecottage (talk) 02:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this needs further commentary, but the fact that selection of an adjudicator can forbid a dancer from competing seems extraordinary. That must mean you can show up at the Worlds ready to dance, and suddenly be told to go home and wait another year.  Or am I misreading this?  And wouldn't it be possible for that to happen two or three years in a row, if you were unlucky?
 * The selection of adjudicators in carried out in advance, but precisely how long is difficult to say. The timeframe certainly isn't mentioned in sources. I've tried to make it clear without being too specific. And yes, in theory, a dancer could miss out several years in a row, and with the advent of mega-schools employing dozens of teachers across multiple countries, it is becoming a reality. Triptothecottage (talk) 02:16, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, you have From the group selected, a ballot is publicly drawn on each morning of the Championships to determine the makeup of adjudication panels for each of the day's sections, from Wulff (2007), which seems to be the only mention of the timeframe -- perhaps that's no longer the case? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:45, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see the issue. The process has two distinct stages – the pool is selected from all the adjudicators in the world months in advance, and then on the morning of the competition the members of the pool are balloted into panels. Hope that is more obvious now. Triptothecottage (talk) 12:10, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, that makes it clear. However, there's now an uncited sentence at the end of the first paragraph of "Adjudication"; can we fix that? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 23:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Done, and it even comes with a more specific timeline. Triptothecottage (talk) 00:39, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The lead section mentions that Oireachtas Rince na Cruinne is one of six to be called World Championships, but this is not mentioned in the body. How about  a subsection at the end of the history section about the context of the Worlds within the world of Irish dance competitions?  Per WP:LEAD there should be some discussion of this in the body of the article.
 * Have added some more substantial discussion of this point. Please check it for clarity. Triptothecottage (talk) 03:12, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * As of January 2018, exemptions to the new system remained under consideration: I'm not sure what "exemptions" could mean here.
 * Have clarified, hope this makes more sense. Triptothecottage (talk) 12:00, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * What I'm not getting is what it means to be exempted. Does it just mean that that section will be adjudicated using the old system? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:45, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's now what it says, hope it reads more clearly. Triptothecottage (talk) 12:03, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Michaela Hinds retired from competitive Irish dance in 2017 after winning 7 solo championships, more than any other North American in the history of Oireachtas Rince na Cruinne: seems odd to give this statistic without saying who has won the most solo championships overall.
 * Agreed that it seems odd, but finding RS for this is challenging. I am having another look. Triptothecottage (talk) 12:03, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Fixed at last. If you spot check the source I've given, it claims 11 titles for O'Se, right next to a list showing 10. The 11 claim is repeated in a lot of places, including his own dance school's website, but the 10 is backed up by an offline tabulation of results I have. If he did win an 11th it hasn't been recorded anywhere. Point moot as it's the all time record with either number. Triptothecottage (talk) 23:25, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Footnote 103, "Whelan 2017", doesn't link to a bibliography entry.
 * Fixed. Triptothecottage (talk) 11:56, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I've struck one more point and added a note above; just a couple of points left now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Will need a couple of days to fix the last two points. Sorry to hold it up. Triptothecottage (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * No hurry at all. I think it's just the one point left now, and to be honest that is not worth holding up GA for. I'm heading out for a short trip; when I get back tomorrow I will take another look and may go ahead and promote then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 09:39, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Last point fixed, and the spotchecks were OK, so promoting. Congratulations. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 00:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mike - pleasure working with you. Triptothecottage (talk) 09:11, 16 July 2018 (UTC)