Talk:Okinawan kobudō

Definition of kobudō and Okinawan kobudō
The discussion is not only a matter about weapons of Okinawa from the twentieth century because the term kobudō refers also to the description of a moral concept from the feudal Japan.

According to Donn F. Draeger, 1974. Modern Bujutsu & Budo. ISBN 0-8348-0351-8, p.135:


 * "The term ko budo, ancient martial ways," is a generic term coined in the twentieth century. It may be used to describe collectively all Okinawan combative systems, but it is more accurate to say 'Okinawan ko budo,' in order to distinguish them from Japanese ko budo (the classical bujutsu and budo), hich are entirely different and basically unrelated systems. The use of the term ko budo should not be limited, as it popularly is, to the describing of the ancient weapons systems of Okinawa."

For you information the concept 'ko budo' is described in Donn F. Draeger, 1973. Classical Budo. ISBN 978-0-8348-0234-6. Draftbooks (talk) 11:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

JJL vs. TonyTheTiger
On 22:31, 15 May 2006 I (TTT) added a the following sentences "Many listings of the Kobudo class of weapons only includes the Bo, sai, tonfa, nunchuck, and kama. Each of these weapons trace back to fishing or farming traditions as classical implements used in these trades."

On 15:28, 24 May 2006 JJL removed the first of these sentences and revised the second as follows "Many believe that each of these weapons trace back to fishing or farming traditions as classical implements used in these trades."

On 22:17, 1 June 2006 TTT attempted slightly different emphasis with the following "Although it is not correct, it is common to use the term Kobudo weapons to refer to the most popular of the aforementioned kobudo weapons: Bo, sai, tonfa, nunchuck, and kama. Many believe that each of these weapons trace back to fishing or farming traditions as classical implements used in these trades."

On 04:47, 2 June 2006 JJL reverted to "Many believe that each of these weapons trace back to fishing or farming traditions as classical implements used in these trades."

My contention is that until about a month ago most google searches on kobudo weapons only yielded results with the 5 implements I mentioned. I could point you to several sites that describe thses as the kobudo weapons. My point is that in order to inform people of what the kobudo weapons are we should accurately note that often the undeniably warrior culture based implements are excluded from references to Kobudo weapons in favor of those likely to have derived from farming and fishing cultures. Tekko, Tinbe-Rochin, and Surujin seem to clearly trace their linage from the Kobudo teachings. However, they have often been ignored from the list of kobudo implements (rightly or wrongly, and I am quite certain wrongly). To accurately serve as a reference about the kobudo weapons branch of knowledge we should note this mistake. I am involved in an interesting legal battle with the IL Dept. of Natural Resources (see my homepage for a copy of the brief) regarding the use and display of martial arts devices. When I wrote my brief 5 months ago, I did not know about these additional kobudo implements because the internet references I found did not note them. Even JJL's 18:48, 23 December 2005 and 20:29, 17 February 2006 contributions did not include them. They were not included in this pages history until 09:18, 8 March 2006.


 * Tekko's page was created 09:45, 8 March 2006 by Blagmeister.
 * Tinbe-Rochin's page was created 10:23, 8 March 2006 by Blagmeister.
 * Surujin's page was created 22:33, 9 March 2006 by Armas Okinawa.

I am going to reinsert for this reason


 * I agree that it is a common misconception that kobudo=sai/bo/nunchaku/tonfa/kama, and that that list omits some lesser known weapons. I just think that "[a]lthough it is not correct" is not the wording to use here. Let me try for a compromise; please edit it! JJL 04:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

TonyTheTiger 06 June 2006 Kobudo weapons stylistic corrections accepted. Thanks for working with me.


 * Should a change be made to the bit about ag. tools, given that spear and shield clearly aren't? Ex.: "Many believe that the five best-known of these weapons trace back to fishing or farming implements that were adapted for use as weapons." JJL

Not sure about the 3 lesser known. The way it reads the reference ambiguously refers to the popular 5 or all including the lesser known. It should be changed to make sure the most popular are the referrent. Nunchucks (wheat harvesting especially separating wheat from chaff) Tonfa (Grain miling) Kama (harvesting), Sai (rice planting) and Bo Staff (bucket/basket carrying) buckets could have water, milk, crops or fish.

Merge?
The merge tag has been sat here for quite some time now, with no opinion offered. In my opinion the two should stay seperate since Kobudo is often used as a general term for weapons work, whereas this page is clearly to something more specific. Kcordina 10:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I would prefer to see them remain separate, but no great harm would be done by merging them. JJL 14:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed the merge tag. JJL 02:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * removed corisponding tag from kobudo Nate1481 00:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Factual Basis of Statements?
The following paragraph seems speculative/self-edifying:
 * Contrary to popular belief and martial arts myths, Okinawan weapons were not derived from farm implements. Peasants would not have had the time or energy to devote themselves to studying farm tools for martial use. Secondly, an anxious commoner armed with clumsy farm tools would not fare well against a trained professional warrior with a variety of well made weapons at his disposal.

At the very least, references should be made to outside material that illustrates specific examples to support the broad assertations: text which chronicles 1)the evolution of Okinawan weapons; 2)the typical breakdown of a peasant work-day/week; or 3)historical record(s) of peasant inability to defend themselves against better equipped warriors would all be good examples.

If the generalizations cannot be supported, the paragraph should be removed.
 * And according to Wonder Okinawa a website about Okinakawan karate and Kobudo published by the Okinawa Prefectural Government and featuring contributions by ALL the major modern day Okinawan masters - this is also a totally incorrect conjecture. E.g.
 * "Muge, that is regarded as very close to the original form of nunchaku, was based on part of a horse's harness used by farmers."
 * "Tekko was originally a type of horseshoe. It is said that farmers kept one always to hand and it could be a very effective tool in fighting any enemy immediately."
 * "The kama (scythe) was one of the most familiar pieces of farm equipment that could be used as a substitute weapon."
 * "It seems that the Okinawans devised the idea of using grain mill handles as Tonfa."
 * 84.67.176.127 21:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Kobudo kata
Kobudo kata talks about the kata of Okinawan kobubo but the intro reads as if Kubodo kata is an actual martial art. It would put things in context if the articles were simply merged.Peter Rehse 04:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This merge makes a lot of sense. Another way to go would be to turn the Kobudo kata article into a "List of known Kobudo kata" article, linked from here. JJL 14:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Both articles are pretty short. I will do the merge with Kobudo kata kept as a redirect. That way, if the article eventually grows cumbersome we can unmerge.Peter Rehse 00:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Okinawan weapons
The result was merge with Okinawan weapons. -- Scott Alter 23:03, 7 May 2007 (UTC) Both articles parallel each other almost identically. The only difference being one mentions the kata in a list, while the other briefly describes the weapon (and links to its main page). The content could be improved by providing the brief description of the weapon (with link to main articles), followed by the kata. --Scott Alter 06:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that is a good idea. Anyone else? 66.215.4.48 21:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Make sure you adjust the links on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:KobudoWeapons if you do merge them. Tkjazzer 22:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Rename to Kobudo
Since this article is about both Okinawan and Japanese styles that practice weapons, I think "Okinawan" should be removed from the title. On the top of the Kobudo page would be a link to Koryū as "Another word used for Koryū, the old martial arts traditions found in Japanese islands." --Scott Alter 00:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Okinawa developed its own arts both before the Japanese annexed it and the distinctive weapon styles, (tonfa etc) during the occupation when the inhabitance were not allowed to carry conventional weapons,this later spread to Japan (as did Karate), so title makes seance to me as the origins are in Okinawa. --Nate 15:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer it as is. The Okinawan and Japanese traditions are different. JJL 15:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to add a note, the reason I propose this is because there is talk to remove the weapons from Comparison of karate styles, and move it to something like Comparison of kobudo styles. There are Japanese karate styles that practice weapons, but I'm not sure if they are actually called kobudo. Is kobudo a word unique to Okinawan styles? I also think that the kobudo article(s) should parallel that of the karate articles. While karate did start in Okinawa, the article is called Karate, not Okinawan karate. I wouldn't object to having Okinawan kobudo/Okinawan karate and Japanese kobudo/Japanese karate as sub-articles of Kobudo/Karate, but I don't think the sub-articles should exist without the broad articles. --Scott Alter 16:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Were any of these Weapons Actually Used By Ninja?
I'm curious because ninja would disguise themselves as farmers and peasents, and using a weapon derived from a farming tool would be perfect for them. In addition, ninja are often depicted wielding sai and kama. Is there any historical basis for this? I'm sure the weapons were likely brought over to mainland Japan at some point in Japan's history, so I've probably just answered my own question, but I'm just wanting to make sure. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Where to learn in L.A. ? or a website for finding well respected locations to learn ? or world and national headquarters for various styles ?
Hello,

I'm looking for a place to practice in L.A. Where would I figure out how to find something? While I don't think the article or talk page should directly advertise specific locations to learn, I think it should be more helpful in directing someone who is interested in the right direction. Thanks. Tkjazzer 21:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Picture
In the picture, it is not Bo! It is Jo or something like it, but not Bo! Bo’s height = user’s height, but in picture, it is short! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.19.204.165 (talk) 03:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)