Talk:Oku-sama wa Mahō Shōjo: Bewitched Agnes

Episode citations
Surely, not every single event being cited takes place 23 minutes in. I think it's safe to assume that someone took the minutes= parameter to mean length of the show, rather than location in show. Unless someone objects, I'll remove that parameter throughout. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for that. I had assumed that that's what that was meant for, given that it would be pretty anal-retentive to sit there and clock when every event happened.--Fuen Fuboo (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Original research
I've removed a large section from the character list that lays out various facts and analyzes them in an attempt to come to a conclusion, because this is original research which by Wikipedia policy is not allowed. Per the guidelines for writing about fiction, the work is an acceptable source only for elements of plot and character that require no interpretation, and analysis is interpretation. In my removal, I kept those details that seemed to me to be about Ururu and Nori and their relationship with Ureshiko; if you think other details need rescuing, you can use this history of the edit to do so. However, the analysis cannot be restored without citations to reliable third-party sources that discuss the issue. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Too many images
I've tagged the article as having too many non-free (fair-use) images because, well, it does. The guidelines are pretty clear on the matter -- a single image for every character in a list is considered too many for a supposedly free encyclopedia, let alone multiple images per character. A couple images with more than one of the main characters, to show their appearence and depict the art style, is ideal. The only reason I'm not being bold and removing most of them myself is that, not being familiar with the series, I don't know which are the best/most representative ones to keep. As such, I'd like editors in the know to make the choices. If nothing has changed in, say, a month or so, I'll do the best job I can myself, but I'd rather not see the article butchered. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Since I'm the only one who's really bothered to put this article together, we can talk about which images to remove on either of our talk pages. Just let me know how you'd like to do it and we'll go from there.--Fuen Fuboo (talk) 18:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm. How about this: you list the half-dozen images you feel are most essential for understanding the show, along with what in particular you feel is important about it, and we hash it out from there. Possibly, as well, alternates can be found, such as group shots (especially promotional ones). (BTW, just as a heads up, starting this weekend I'll be offline for a vacation, so it's not like there's a rush for all of this.) —Quasirandom (talk) 19:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey! I was on vacation for the weekend, too, so I just got back.  Thanks for being flexible!  I'd say that one image for Ureshiko and Sayaka (either transformed or not) would be really important, since they're the main characters.  We can get rid of the images of Bulga, Chane and Hermes, Freya, and Maiko without any problems from my end.  While I would love to have a picture of Yuki (she's my favorite), that is not essential if we're making cuts.  Similarly I'd like to have a picture of the elders and of Aphrodite, but, again, if we're aiming to cut out most of the images, they're ones to get rid of.  I can get a shot of most of the secondary female characters from the theme song if that's okay.
 * We really should have pictures of Tatsumi and Tamotsu (or one of both of them together) as they're the most important human characters in the show. The others in that section can go.  Personally I'd like to keep the picture of all the characters from the Wonderland, since that's half the supporting cast in one shot.  I could easily get a picture of the unknown females (even though I found that they have magical girl names on another website but never moved them up).  Thus if we move those two up to the Characters from Realm section, I could easily get a shot of all of those characters together, minus Ureshiko and Sayaka.  Let me know what you think about that when you get a chance and I will do it--Fuen Fuboo (talk) 00:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC).


 * Just to let you know, I'm back, and while that sounds like a good start, it'll take me a day or two to go through the proposal in detail. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Right -- after unburying myself at work, I've had a chance to go through the proposal. This pretty much addressed my concerns, so I went ahead and implemented them. I left Yuki on the excuse of showing a magic girl in civilian form. If you can get a group shot of the Realm characters, that would be good, ditto moving and separating the entries on Ururu and Nori. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Those two things are done. The shot of all of them came from the theme song, which is of noticably lower quality than the rest of the screenshots.  However, the footage itself is lower quality for whatever reason, so that's really the best I can do.  I've moved those two characters to the Realm section and added a ref to the site that says that's where they're from.  I hope that you had a good trip, and I look forward to working on more substantive work with you in the coming days.--Fuen Fuboo (talk) 01:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Next steps
I'm rating this article as C-class and removing the urgent attention flag because it now more or less follows the guidelines for an anime article, with the caveat noted above. That's not to say there aren't things to work on -- but they're things editors familiar with the series need to do. Aside from the images noted above, here's what I see needs doing:


 * Create a Production section, with sourced information about how the creators went about creating the series. The nugget about the Bewitched influence is a kernel to start with -- if it can be sourced to producer's statements.
 * Create a Reception section, filled with reviews (from reliable sources), reactions, sales and/or polling figures, and influences the show has had on other works.
 * Trim the character descriptions to at most 2-3 paragraphs each for the main characters, 1 or maybe 2 for the minor. (This is an unwritten guideline based on what's passed muster for featured articles.)
 * Trim the plot summaries of episodes to 100-200 words; the guidelines allows up to 350 words for especially complicated plots, but that's intended for hour-long episodes.
 * Add to the Anime section sourced details of DVD releases.
 * Add the other CDs mentioned on this page, and divide the CDs section into soundtracks and drama CDs, as those really are separate items.

The overall thrust of these is to reduce the relative material devoted to discussing the plot (and the character descriptions, currently, are alsmost all plot -- what they did) -- because articles that are too much plot and not enough about run afoul of WP:NOT and liable to getting stubbified. In short, these aren't really just good ideas, they're rescue work.

If anyone has the knowledge but not the nohow, I can help with the how to do this stuff -- I'll be watching the page, or you can ping my talk page. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * As I said, there aren't really other active "editors in the know", so you're pretty much stuck with just me. =)  I was going to make a reception section ages ago when I was building the page from the paragraph-long stub that it was, but it got away from me.  To be honest with you, the part about Bewitched was one of the only things to be found in the original stub, and I kept it there because I thought it was kind of neat.  I don't know much about production sections, so if you point me toward well-written ones I might be able to cook something up.  I'm really glad that someone has taken the time to look at this article objectively rather than just slashing it all.  I hope to be able to incorporate the changes that you suggested in the near future.--Fuen Fuboo (talk) 18:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Not to worry -- a bit at a time is fine. And I understand completely about dumping everything in then having to pare back -- I work with writers like that all the time IRL. For examples of good production sections, looking at at some of the project's FA and GA articles is my best suggestion. Examples of useful things is statements by producers about what they were trying to do, by voice actors abotu how they approached roles, comments by reviewers about what they see as influences on the series, and so on. Also objective history -- how the project got off the ground. DVD extras is one place to look for this stuff, though for an unlicensed series, that can be a bit hard.
 * I have to say, Bewitched homage looks patently obvious, to the point that even promotional material could be used to reference it. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Article title
Sometimes "Bewitched Agnès" and "奥様は魔法少女" appear without the other. For example, in the DVD scan as shown in the article itself, "Bewitched Agnès" does not appear. In the manga cover, both the English and Japanese appear, but the inside says in English "Bewitched Agnès / Volume 01 / Tohko Kanno Presents." Amazon Japan and other online shopping sites lists it without the "Bewitched Agnès" portion in the article title. The English and Japanese portions are combined only in graphical artwork (without a colon), while "Bewitched Agnès" is never uttered in the anime DVDs. These facts seem to suggest that "Bewitched Agnès" is meant to be the English title while "奥様は魔法少女" is meant to be the Japanese title, as opposed to them being always concatenated. As an aside, does the article spell her as Agnes, without a grave accent, for a reason? —Tokek (talk) 19:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't speak to whether the present subtitle is supposed to be the translated title without further research, but as for the grave accent, I suspect the article creator(s) simply didn't notice it. I know I didn't until you pointed it out. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Good questions! I've wondered about the Bewitched Agnes part since I started working in the page all those months ago.  It was already there, and I really wasn't comfortable messing with the article's title (I didn't want the page to get deleted somehow!).  The second question I can answer with much more clarity: again, when I found the page, it was about a paragraph long, and it did not have any accents on it.  The fan translation I originally watched appears on all the major websites like Crunchyroll and even Youtube, and it does not use an accent.  To stay true to that translation, I did not include it--my fear is that if we include it, people who have only watched the translation are going to be confused by it.  While animenewsnetwork.com includes the accent, animeinfo.com does not.  Since the English version of Wikipedia is read by a traditionally Western audience, seeing the name written that way may appear a bit clumsy.  But, yes, Tokek is technically correct.  If you'd like, we can go through and change them all as we make other edits.  I wouldn't advise making a special project out of it, though.--Fuen Fuboo (talk) 02:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Splitting
The episode and characters should be split into their own articles. The main article has shown enough to pass WP:N so splitting those segments off shouldn't be an issue. For characters though, only the important ones should be kept in the split. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Would recommend cleaning while also splitting - particularly the episodes, but only after notability has actually been shown in this article (which it has not). -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 22:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Episode lists do not have to show notability and the length of the series is not so long that it would constitute not listing the episodes. The anime just needs to show notability in and of itself. Indivisual episodes, if they want a specific article need to as well; lists do not. 陣 内 Jinnai 00:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the anime, not the list. A split shouldn't be done from an article until the main article (i.e. the anime) has demonstrated notability. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 01:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Split would be premature: finish cleaning up (which seems to have been on hiatus for several months) then evaluate whether splitting is appropriate. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well don't know how many of those characters is notable, but 12 episodes to potentially stand as a FL. 陣 内 Jinnai 07:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

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