Talk:Olaf the Black

Quick review
Excellent article. I think I am too close to the subject matter to provide a GA review but here are a few quick points.

1. There are links to 3 disambiguation pages
 * Bastard
 * Canna
 * Guðrøðr
 * Fixed. Linked Canna to the right article.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

2. The multiplicity of names is, I know, not easy to deal with, but for me there are too many in the lead. You might consider making it something like: "Olaf the Black, also known as Olaf Godredsson and Amlaíb mac Gofraid...." and move (Old Norse: Óláfr Svarti), (Old Norse: Óláfr Guðrøðarson; Mediaeval Gaelic:Amhlaibh mac Gofraidh), and Olaf II etc. to a note or separate section–or even just confine to the infobox.
 * I moved the bulk of it down into a note. I left the English forms and only the first name in Norse and Gaelic.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

3. Background
 * You could simplify and say that "Óláfr was a younger son of Guðrøðr Óláfsson, King of Mann and the Isles (d. 1187) and grandson of..."
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Is Somairle a typo?
 * No I chose Somairle.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I recently came across Thalassocracy, which you might link in here somewhere.
 * Ah cool, I've now linked to it. I've never come across that term before! There's stubby sea-kings article, but I'm not sure it's worth linking too.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The sources are usually insufferably vague, but I wonder if the Islands of the Clyde have been consciously omitted?

4. Half Brother
 * Do we know anything more about Cardinal Vivian e.g. that he was the Cardinal of Foo-land?
 * I added a bit. I've got my eyes peeled for anything more on him.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Would the title be better as "Ascension of Rögnvaldr " or similar?
 * Done.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

5. Outer Isles
 * "...landing-tax to a king named Óláfr - it is italicised but I wonder if it should be   ...named "Óláfr".
 * It's italicised because it's a name. It's not exactly a quote either, just a standard form of the Norse name.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "who were seated in Moidart, in Garmoran." - should be "who were seated at Moidart, in Garmoran."?
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "may have been temporally stranded" - temporarily, I assume.
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "Historically, William is known.." does the word "Historically" perform a purpose here? Ditto re Ferchar mac an t-sagairt and "Historically in the 1220s," lower down.
 * I used 'historically' as a buffer. The sentences before contain statements straight by the chronicle. The sentences beginning with 'historically' are more of a general statements or outlines of history which historians likely derived from a whole slew of different sources. When possible I want the reader to know when something is from a certain historical source.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

6. Marriages
 * demist - assume this should be "demise".
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "After several days, according to the chronicle, Páll and Óláfr secretly returned to Skye and after several days" - repetition
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "but he could not prevent it due to Páll". Slightly clumsy.
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

7. Rise of Óláfr
 * "Rögnvaldr and Alan attempted to take possession of Óláfr's island portion of the kingdom" - what part of the kingdom wasn't on an island?
 * Fixed. It should read "Hebridean portion".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "Alan's illegitimate son Thomas, gave Alan a stake in the Kingship of Mann and the Isles" - earlier you tell us the title was not in use at this time?
 * I had just used it as a description. I've now changed this sentence to: "gave Alan a stake in the kingship since Thomas was likely to succeed". I'd figured it would be better to use one title for all the Crovans in this article for simplicity's sake. I've changed it back though, and now the article follows the titles that Sellar gives in Hebridean Sea-Kings.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "devastated by Alan, Alan's brother Thomas, Earl of Atholl" surely better as "...Alan, his brother Thomas,..."
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

8. Norwegian intervention
 * The sword and St P's isle images could be swapped round.
 * They should be but the since the sword-image is so long it goes down beside the ancestry-template. For some reason that template refuses to live beside any images. I dunno how to tackle this problem other than placing the images out of order, or just rotating the sword image (the image doesn't look all that great on it's side)--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've left a note about this on the Help desk. Hopefully someone will come up with a solution.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "Also noted amongst the fleet is Óláfr and Guðrøðr." - surely "were", not "is".
 * I've reworded it a bit, and tagged that statement onto the previous sentence. So now it reads: "also amongst the fleet were Óláfr and Guðrøðr".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "There is evidence to suggest that Óláfr might have had a fourth son named Guðrøðr. - why the italics?
 * I used italics because it's referring to a person's name, rather than the person.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

9. Legacy
 * "In recent years, however, Leod's traditional lineage has been challenged is no longer taken seriously by scholars" - something wrong here.
 * I've reworded it.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

10. Links
 * Cille Donnain: a late Norse church in South Uist (info) [ahds.ac.uk] is dead.
 * Fixed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Hoping this is helpful. Ben  Mac  Dui  19:45, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

sea-king
I remembered the existence of the article, which will need some work. Obviously the entire House of Ivar and Crovan dynasty were sea-kings and their brood. Nora lives (talk) 14:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

GOCE copyedit August 2011
Hi I have a couple of points that may require looking at:


 * General
 * The whole article uses first names rather than last names (Páll, Reginald etc.)
 * The last names are patronyms. The only person in the article with a surname is Muirchertach Mac Lochlainn.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Olafr used instead of Olaf (which was even stated as "most commonly known in English as Olaf ..." in the opening sentence)
 * Reginald is depicted by his Norse name, Rögnvaldr, the same as Olafs brother, and often in the same sentences. I have change to Reginald to avoid complete confusion as to which Rögnvaldr is which.
 * "Historically in the XXXXs," - what purpose does this serve? Obviously if it was in the past it was historically. Is it possible it is meant to be historiographically (ie historiography = written history)?
 * MacDui noted my use of "Historically" above in his review. Just search "historically" to see my reasoning. I'll try get rid of it though. I guess it's causing confusion where I thought it'd make things more clear.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:06, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Eirspennill - should be explained what it is, and as it is in quite a few other articles, may well warrant an article of its own, or be linked to one that already explains it.
 * I started a stub on it.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Marriages, and nephew Guðrøðr Rögnvaldsson
 * "rounded up their forces and dragged five ships from the seashore, which is described as being about two furlongs from the island, and subsequently surrounded Guðrøðr's island." - This is pretty unclear, why would you not just march there? Why take the ships? Was it an island in the seas - if so why did they drag the ships?
 * OK I see what you mean. I'll work on this. One of the suggested locations is that the island was situated in an island-loch on Skye (see picture and caption). So that'd mean that the attackers beached their boats ashore on Skye, and then dragged them across land for a bit until they reached the loch, where they would have then set off and surrounded the little island. I shied away from going too deep into the explanation of this particular location because it's only one of the suggested locations and I'm not sure that it is currently favoured one.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "unable to prevent it due to Páll." What did Páll do to prevent it?
 * "Guðrøðr was seized, blinded and castrated. The chronicle claims that Óláfr did not consent to Guðrøðr's brutal mutilation, but was unable to prevent it due to Páll." How's that? Páll mutilated Guðrøðr, and the chronicle claims that Óláfr could not prevent it. I added a note giving some extra info about a later tradition of the deed which states that Guðrøðr was mutilated because he killed Páll's father.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Norwegian intervention into the Isles
 * "causing grave dis-peace in the region" (para 3) - if it is a quote, quotation marks, if not then this has to be more plainly stated "causing unrest" or similar.
 * Switched to "causing unrest".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I have finished the copy-edit. Chaosdruid (talk) 01:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Document
 * You tagged the following sentence with : "Furthermore, amongst the names of witnesses within a certain Welsh document[which?], thought to date to 1241, there is a certain Guðrøðr who appears in Latin as Godredo filio regis Mannie ("Guðrøðr, son of the King of Mann")." I gave a note stating all I know about the document. McDonald himself just calls it an "important document"; he cites Acts of Welsh rulers, no. 317 (page 490). That book is on GoogleBooks, but it's non-preview; the blurb for the books says this: "This volume provides the first comprehensive collection of charters, letters, and other documents issued by native rulers of Wales from the early twelfth century to the Edwardian conquest of 1282-83 that extinguished independent rule." So I suppose it's charter or letter or something similar. I don't know how to describe it other than "a document". What do you think?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Scratch that. Luckily enough another editor who had the Welsh book helped me out with this.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 18:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Manx Olafs
There is a discussion regarding this article's title at Talk:Olaf Guthfrithson. Ben  Mac  Dui  08:02, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested move 21 January 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  10:50, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Óláfr Guðrøðarson (died 1237) → Olaf the Black – The current name is excessively long. Olaf the Black is a name that this person is known by and would work as an alternative. AlsoOlaf the Black currently redirects to the article. 122.61.73.44 (talk) 06:02, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. The use of main title header Olaf the Black would provide for Óláfr Guðrøðarson (died 1237) a much clearer differentiation from Óláfr Guðrøðarson (died 1153). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:07, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose there are several Óláfr Guðrøðarson so no sense in taking this one out. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:28, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support He is better known by his nickname than his patronymic. Dimadick (talk) 10:28, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator and User:Dimadick. J I P  &#124; Talk 12:45, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)