Talk:Old Abe

Photo
Added photo of Old Abe from a tour of the Wisconsin Capitol. Rattis irrittis 18:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * For the sake of the caption, is that a statue or was the original Old Abe stuffed? Hal Jespersen 17:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

There was much discussion about what to do with it the remains of Old Abe. It was decided that he be stuffed and put on display in the G A.R. Museum located in the State Capitol. In 1904 the State Capitol burned down and the stuffed body of Old Abe was lost the fire. Since 1915 a replica of Old Abe has been on display at the State Capitol in the Assembly Chambers. As the legend goes a farmer from the area found a dead eagle in his field and offered it to the state of Wisconsin as a replacement for our famous “WAR EAGLE”

Rattis irrittis 14:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I updated the caption. Hal Jespersen 16:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Public Domain Photos
The photos of Old Abe taken before 1923 (they were taken in 1863 and before 1881) are in the Public Domain and who ever is deleting then is in the wrong. If you wish to delete them again give a full discription of your reason on the talk page. The photos are public domain because they are so old their copyright has expired. These pictures are a crucial part of the Old Abe story, they are actual photos of Old Abe and not artist renditions. (Lookinhere (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC))


 * The Wikipedia photo gods have been cracking down on photos that have no source information listed. It generally takes them a few weeks and then they start deleting images, leaving the articles with ugly stubs. Furthermore, without the source info, how is anyone to know the accuracy/verifiability of the captions? This photo could be of any random eagle, taken at any random time. If the File: description pages are updated appropriately, these photos should be fine, but until then ... Hal Jespersen (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you even check the sourses on Wiki Commons? It is a public domain image fron the State of Wisconsin Archives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lookinhere (talk • contribs) 00:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I looked, twice. Now I see the source info was just added. It said "unknown" previously. That's all I was asking for. Hal Jespersen (talk) 11:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Male of female?
An IP address used changed the text to say the bird was a male, with no edit summary and keeping the cited reference that had it was female. I was going to revert, but could not verify that reference. So will just move the question here. To be consistent with Wikipedia policy, I think if there are sources that say both (there seems to be), we should at least mention the controversy. http://books.google.com/books?id=No3mAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA205 for example claims that there were stories about laying eggs, but dismisses them since the plumage supposedly was different. W Nowicki (talk) 01:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no knowledge of the sex of the eagle (although I suspect that the 19th century Wisconsin men would not have given a male name to a female bird), but you are correct that if there are multiple conflicting sources, the Wikipedia policy is that you should mention the controversy. Your example link seems to be like a gossip column, however, which I do not consider to be a very good reliable secondary source. Hal Jespersen (talk) 18:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I wish to remain anonymous but I made the edits. I talked to a librarian at the Wisconsin Historical Society where I work and have been working with a variety of primary resources that will be going online in April. Ever primary source I have refers to Old Abe as a "he" and that there were some people later who argued that because he was a large raptor he must have been a "she" that is not so. A definition from the Dictionary of Wisconsin History: "live bald eagle carried by the Eighth Wisconsin Infantry regiment throughout the Civil War; having survived 17 battles, he returned home to live in special quarters in the state capitol until 1881; his stuffed remains were consumed in the capitol fire of 1904" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.244.192 (talk) 18:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I’m no expert on the subject—-but the following article’s author is quite adamant that Abe was definitely female: https://www.visiteauclaire.com/blog/post/old-abe-the-legendary-civil-war-eagle-lives-on-in-the-chippewa-valley/ 2601:440:C600:2B30:2CD2:450D:A74:8BC0 (talk) 03:29, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

To add to this discussion:

I have no doubt that the feathers the Wisconsin Veterans Museum tested were from a male eagle. And it's quite possible that they were even taken from the cage that held the bird thought to be the same Old Abe that flew over Vicksburg.

But there are a couple of things that make me wonder about what feathers you might find in any Old Abe cage. First, when Old Abe was held at the Capitol, that bird was held in the same cage as another bird named Old Andy; so whose feathers might be whose? Second, it was WIDELY discussed that the original Old Abe died in 1876 and that a substitute bird was escorted around to veterans groups thereafter, and of course then the substitute bird would have been caged at the Capitol and died in the fire.

Here’s the link from the 1876 Abe/Andy scandal, which makes me think its equally likely that the Wisconsin Veterans Museum tested the feathers of “Old Andy” as the feathers of “Old Abe”:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MSctAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=%22old+abe%22+%22old+andy%22&source=bl&ots=6YmeTWPvGR&sig=pUfvgrRNHYLmF5-T6h6zh396iG4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj25rKE1_PNAhVCaz4KHapgCnYQ6AEIHjAB#v=onepage&q=%22old%20abe%22%20%22old%20andy%22&f=false

I also like to look at the TOTALITY of the evidence and not just base my surmise on the results of a DNA profile of a single feather of unclear provenance. And the historical evidence trends toward Old Abe being female.

In almost all public sources from the 19th century to the present, she's called a male bird. My theory is that no one of the 19th century could fathom that a female could be a war hero. But those in the know, writing in their private journals with no reason to exaggerate or color the story, left no doubt.

https://assets.booklocker.com/pdfs/2719s.pdf

Scroll to the bottom of p. 327.

This is the journal of Ambrose Armitage. His entry for Saturday, July 25, 1863, reads in part, "The passing troops have been running in as they always do to see our eagle. She is a great wonder. All spring that bird has been sought for by our men. They ask all kinds of questions about her and 'Old Abe' gets many a cheer from our passing men. She though a female bird is named after our president."

Armitage was a MEMBER OF the 8th Wisconsin, so he saw the eagle daily; he was a farm kid from southern Wisconsin and so knew a bird egg when he saw one; and, he had no reason to lie in his own private journal, of course.

Some of the cheekier writing of the time also let the news slip.

I quote the September 6, 1893 edition of the  Chicago Tribune: “… [After the war, Old Abe] settled down calmly in his peaceful Wisconsin home and went to laying eggs. ... Old Abe was the Joan of Arc of the feathered tribe.”

An article from the Eau Claire Leader, March 23, 1915, notes the opinion of a taxidermist that the bald eagle who flew over Vicksburg was a female bird, and also relates the soldiers' stories about what made Old Abe angry: “‘Old Abe’ was furious when ‘he’ saw a soldier carrying one of ‘his’ eggs to the colonel’s tent ... It is now believed that if proper treatment had been accorded ‘Old Abe’ during those four years, ‘he’ would have flooded the south with Wisconsin bald eagles.” FrankSmoot (talk) 20:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your research. I'm not sure how much info you can get from the cheekier writing of the time in the 1893 Chicago Tribune. That section is filled with satirical remarks. It would be like watching SNL news or The Daily Show, a 100 years from now and trying to know which parts were real or jokes or both (maybe the laughs would help). Also, use 4 tildes ("~") to sign talk sections. WP:Signatures StrayBolt (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2020 (UTC)


 * So true! Definitely the tone of the papers of the time. I think the best source is Armitage's journal. He was a serious person and he knew the bird well. It was definitely a widely-known and open secret that Old Abe was a female bird. Although I didn't list them, there are several (even many) stories from members of the 8th Wisconsin about Captain Perkins eating Old Abe eggs; Perkins made a habit of it. FrankSmoot (talk) 20:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Battles
This section was a collection of red links, incorrect entries, etc. It gave no indication of how the battles related to each other or to the war as a whole. Now that the text of the article is more comprehensive, I have moved the section here, where it is preserved and can be improved by anyone who is inclined to do so. Deer*lake (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2012 (UTC).

Old Abe was present at numerous battles and lesser engagements during the war:


 * Fredericktown, Missouri - 21 October 1861


 * New Madrid and *Island #10 - March & April 1862
 * Point Pleasant, Missouri - March 20, 1862
 * Farmington, Mississippi. - May 9, 1862
 * Corinth, Mississippi. - May 28, 1862
 * Iuka, Mississippi. - September 12, 1862
 * Burnsville, Mississippi. - September 13, 1862
 * Iuka, Mississippi. - September 16–18, 1862
 * Corinth, Mississippi. - October 3–4, 1862
 * Tallahatchie, Mississippi. - December 2, 1862
 * Mississippi Springs, Mississippi. - May 13, 1863
 * Jackson, Mississippi. - May 14, 1863
 * Assault on Vicksburg, Mississippi. - May 22, 1863
 * Mechanicsburg, Mississippi. - June 4, 1863
 * Richmond, Louisiana. - June 15, 1863
 * Vicksburg, Mississippi. - June 24, 1863
 * Surrender of Vicksburg- July 4, 1863
 * Brownsville, Mississippi. - October 16, 1863
 * Meridian, Mississippi. - February 14, 1864


 * Fort Scurry, Louisiana. - March 13, 1864
 * Fort De Russey, Louisiana. - March 15, 1864
 * Henderson's Hill, Louisiana. - March 21, 1864
 * Grand Ecore, Louisiana. - April 2, 1864
 * Pleasant Hill, Louisiana. - April 8–9, 1864
 * Natchitoches, Louisiana. - April 20, 1864
 * Kane River, Louisiana. - April 22, 1864
 * Clouterville and Crane Hill, Louisiana. - April 23, 1864
 * Bayou Rapids, Louisiana. - May 2, 1864
 * Bayou La Monre, Louisiana. - May 3, 1864
 * Bayou Roberts, Louisiana. - May 4–6, 1864
 * Moore's Plantation, Louisiana. - May 8–12, 1864
 * Mansura, Louisiana. - May 16, 1864
 * Battle of Maysville, Louisiana. - May 17, 1864
 * Calhoun's Plantation, Louisiana. - May 18, 1864
 * Bayou De Glaise, Louisiana. - May 18, 1864
 * Ditch Bayou at Lake Chicot or River Lake, Arkansas. - June 6, 1864
 * Hurricane Creek, Mississippi. - August 13, 1864

Deer*lake (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2012 (UTC)