Talk:Old East Slavic/Archive 2

Removing "Old Russian"
I suggest we remove Old Russian from the begging of the article. Since Old Russian = Old Ukrainian = Old Belorussian. Based on the source provided as proof that Old Russian is a used term, also by reading the article we can say that Old Russian is "least commonly used" and "The term Old Russian is something of a misnomer". Since Wikipedia uses only the most common names, there is no point in keeping Old Russian as a synonym for Old East Slavic. It's a not good idea to keep only "Old Russian"(by this I mean, there is no point in having only Russian, since there are Ukrainian and Belorussian as well), it will confuse people on purpose. We have Terminology below which perfectly describes the meaning behind the term.

If you do not agree with me, about removing Old Russian from the begging, then we would need to add Old Belorussian and Old Ukrainian because they are the same languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.47.199.92 (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * POV, nothing to discuss.--24.135.13.63 (talk) 18:20, 18 March 2021 (UTC)


 * @KIENGIR, I just checked the history of edits on this article and checked Archive.org versions. Originally, this page was called Old East Slavic, then Old Russian, Old Belorussian and Old Ukrainian were added as an alternative name. Apparently, after Russo-Ukrainian (2014-present)(or maybe I'm missing something here) it was vandalized and references to Old Belorussian and Old Ukrainian were removed. Again, just by POV rules of Wiki, we cannot add Old Russian, since it's "least commonly used" as stated by the authors of this article(in which, by the way, Old Russian was kept as "proof" that someone uses it, again, that just breaks the POV rule). Again, we have Terminology below which perfectly describes the meaning behind the term.--37.225.5.191 (talk) 17:35, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Just a note: "least common" is "Old Rusian" (with one "s"). Bests, --Seryo93 (talk) 08:43, 22 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Noraskulk, please read carefully through this discussion page before editing the article. It was discussed multiple times before why having only Old Russian isn't the best option. That's why terminology was added. You can also read comments from Iryna Harpy here, she has an excellent explanation about it. --Kram333r (talk) 01:26, 31 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Kram333r, "consensus" is when each participant in a dispute agrees with its outcome. In this article, the dispute started with the fact that you canceled the edit of the user KIENGIR (that is, you started an edit war). So that you will not be offended, I will ask Ermenrich and Berig to resolve this dispute. Noraskulk (talk) 11:33, 31 March 2021 (UTC).
 * Please be careful when reading message from Noraskulk. The user may have some political motives. He protects this vandal. And may have some motives in this article as well. --Kram333r (talk) 11:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, be careful and beware of me.-) Noraskulk (talk) 11:50, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think "Old East Slavic" is the better term, because it is neutral in respect to modern Belarusian, Ukrainian and Russian. We can compare this with Scandinavia. I could write "Runic Danish" or "Runic Swedish", "Old Danish" or "Old Swedish", but as these language forms were essentially the same dialect, I prefer to use "Old Norse" or "Old East Norse".--Berig (talk) 14:58, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Old East Slavic is also commonly referred to as "Old Russian". In fact, it may be more widely used than "Old East Slavic" itself (this needs to be checked), however the point is that it is a widely used name which is sourced, this should not be removed from the lede per MOS:ALTNAME. If "Old Ukrainian" and "Old Belarusian" were widely used names, then I would say they should be included in the lede, but they are not. Mellk (talk) 15:18, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps in the lede this can be described better as in the terminology section, but I do not see any reason to actually remove any mention of this in the lede. Mellk (talk) 15:25, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * MOS:BOLDLEAD says to boldface “the title and significant alternative titles.” Nothing about “more widely used,” much less any arbitrary threshold set somewhere in the vicinity of WP:ILIKEIT. The three alternate names of this language are significant, and should receive equal treatment. —Michael Z. 00:41, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Which makes it a significant alternative name. "Old Ukrainian" and "Old Belarusian" are significant alternative names that should receive equal treatment? Definitely not. Mellk (talk) 08:43, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What makes it significant (and the others, apparently, insignificant)? That you like it? Sincerely, I don’t know what you’re referring to. —Michael Z. 13:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

We cite a source baldly stating that “The term Old Russian is something of a misnomer.” So it is inappropriate to place it in bold in the first line as if it were an unqualified exact synonym. This is misleading our readers and perpetuating WP:BIAS. The problem with the name Old Russian, and its equivalent status with Old Belarusian and Old Ukrainian, should be stated along with its first mention, and not buried in a note. That is exactly what the source does in the very first paragraph of a huge series of university-level online lessons. —Michael Z. 17:12, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Old Russian may be a misnomer, but quite unlike Old Ukranian and Old Belorussian, a common one. Our readers will easily come across this term in the literature which is most accessible to them, i.e. linguistic overviews written in English. Corbett & Comrie's The Slavonic languages (Routledge, 2003) consistently uses Old Russian. Fortson writes: The literary language has traditionally been called Old Russian, the term we use in this book, but it is a bit of a misnomer: it was ancestral not just to Russian, but also to the other East Slavic languages, Belarusian and Ukranian (Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction, 2004, p. 375). (Looks like Krause and Slocum did some close paraphrasing here). The term is even still found in the chapter "The dialectology of Slavic" by O. Polakov in Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics which appeared in 2018: The modern East Slavic dialects are outgrowths of a single Old Russian language, which existed until at least the 12th century...Old Russian has given rise to modern Russian, Belorussian, and Ukrainian (p. 1596). But then, in the same volume, Daniel Collins and B. Darden, the authors of the chapters "The phonology of Slavic" and "Balto-Slavic morphology", respectively, consistently use Old East Slavic (or its abbreviation OESl). I take this as evidence that the term definitely has overtaken or will overtake "Old Russian" in the literature.
 * I find a statement by Sussex and Cubberley in The Slavic languages (Cambridge University Press, 2009) very enlightening: All three East Slavic languages lay claim to the same early written records as evidence of their own historicity (p. 80). The edit history of this article is living evidence for this.
 * To sum up: 1. Keep the page title 2. Keep Old Russian in the lede as commonly encountered alternative name. 3. Instead of citing at length pet sources for Old Ukranian (or Old Belorussian) in bolded text, why not cite Sussex & Cubberley to inform our readers what's behind the "debate". –Austronesier (talk) 10:45, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for these sources. They exemplify the historiographical WP:BIAS in much of Western academia that has favoured the Russian national version of Ukrainian history over the Ukrainian, and has slowly started disappearing in recent decades. I can present more good sources that explicitly illuminate the general debate, although I’m not sure if they specifically treat naming of “OES” vs. “ORu.” Why not do both?
 * Add to them Bunčić 2015: “It has long been agreed upon that during the ‘Old Ukrainian’ period [up to the 14th century] there was a common literary language (or koiné) for all the East Slavs, so that the terms Old Ukrainian, Old Belarusian . . . and Old Russian . . . actually mean the same thing. Consequently, Old East Slavic is a more suitable term for this common literary language.” He mainly refers to the literary and not vernacular language(s).
 * Commonly encountered misnomer “Old Russian” shouldn’t appear without a visible caveat. That the name is both common and deprecated makes that important. Quoting S & C doesn’t satisfy this. And you are ignoring that all three names do have significant meaning in the context of the history of the respective language, but only “Old Russian” has been formerly elevated by the false equivalence of Russia and Rus’ in Russian imperial historiography, and as the “older brother” language in Soviet historiography, and still often is either through habit or with intent.
 * What do you mean “pet”? George Shevelov is a leading authority on the subject. —Michael Z. 20:20, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We aren't here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by giving equal space to names that are only very rarely used in English to those that are. Calling everything "bias" doesn't really help us much and has nothing to do with Wikipedia's policies. I fully agree with and  on how we should present the information: we already use the neutral term Old East Slavic, the other commonly encountered term is "Old Russian," and any other terms can be mentioned in a terminology section.
 * George Shevelov didn't believe that there was a common East Slavic language, so I hardly think we should be using him to decide what to call Old East Slavic.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:45, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Do any reliable sources frame that conclusion about Shevelov, or you just righting a wrong? Hundreds of recent sources cite him. —Michael Z. 18:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * (ec)wikt:pet: 'favourite; cherished; the focus of one's (usually positive) attention'. What you call "historiographical WP:BIAS" is just terminology. Of course is the traditional notation of writing e.g. ORuss. lěto > Ukr. lito insensitive and looks somewhat silly in retrospect, but that was and is common practice, whereas you will rarely find s.o. writing OUkr. lěto > Russ. l'eto, if at all (I'd be eager to see a source which does it). This is an encyclopedia which reflects, but isn't out to right great wrongs. FWIW, we sufficiently do so by choosing "Old East Slavic" over "Old Russian" and the 'visible caveat' is already there. What we can do is to mention that scholars freely make use of the possibilty to refer to this stage as Old Ukrainian and Old Belorussian in the context of studies which treat the development from OES to later stages when Ukranian and Belorussian characteristics start to emerge. But that's a different thing from the use of "Old Russian" as plain synonym for "OES". Simply to say "Old East Slavic .... also known as Old Ukrainian" needs even more caveats. –Austronesier (talk) 20:53, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Most users have come to the consensus that the term "Old Russian" should be left as the fact that some historians still use it (even if not so often). Personally, I think that you can change the beginning of the article a little, for example: Old East Slavic, sometimes called Old Russian[3]... Noraskulk (talk) 15:20, 2 April 2021 (UTC).
 * (?) . . . Would you please count out the editors’ names for and against, to demonstrate the consensus you say you’ve identified? —Michael Z. 16:54, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No, we are in the middle of a discussion. It is not helpful to cut it off with the premature claim of a "result"/"consensus". –Austronesier (talk) 17:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You have mentioned above sources that speicifically treat the question of "OES" vs. "ORu". I have found one in German. Do you have full access to this paper? In his conclusion, the author supports Altostslawisch and Urostslawisch as "less problematic". –Austronesier (talk) 17:19, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. I have access, and I managed to struggle through the German with the help of Google translate. I guess Urostslawisch = “Proto-East Slavic”? This is a very interesting paper and looks quite important for the nomenclature section of this article. It explains the scientific reasons for adopting Old East Slavic and deprecating Old Russian, and does it while acknowledging the historical/historiographical circumstances, but without indulging any of the associated politics. It goes beyond “common name” and gives us an explanation to include in the article. Respekt. —Michael Z. 03:53, 3 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I think we’re all (or almost all) in agreement that old Russian is an inaccurate term. I think Austronesier’s solution of “traditionally called” is the best one for how to present it.—Ermenrich (talk) 14:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If the problem is that it is inaccurate, I don’t see not mentioning the fact as a “solution.” The statement is not a clue to readers of this fact. It is an excuse not to do so, and looks to me like the result of bias. Calling a spade “traditional.” —Michael Z. 13:13, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What about 'erroneously called Old Russian'?—blindlynx (talk) 00:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * That could sound like it’s done by accident, but one of our references on this very question uses it intentionally “with a bow to tradition,” even though “Old Russian is something of a misnomer,” and “equally Old Belorussian and Old Ukrainian,” and OES is “more appropriate.” I think it’s important to concisely but explicitly state these facts in the text:
 * Rus and Russia were conflated in Russian historiography, which was adopted in the West.
 * The resulting name Old Russian is inaccurate/incorrect/misleading but still maintains momentum in academic usage.
 * Old East Slavic is correct and increasingly replacing it.
 * It needn’t be too wordy. —Michael Z. 20:09, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

It's obvious that since several sources call 'Old Russian' a misnomer and no source defends it, it can be designated as a misnomer; a sourced claim is a sourced claim. Purging it from the lede, which was the original suggestion in this thread, should be out of the question, since it is widely used and is virtually universally used in only somewhat older literature. That said, it seems to me that the international (i.e. Western) scholarly tendency that the article has to reflect because of Wikipedia policy is itself due to increasing anti-Russian bias in modern Western linguistics. It just so happens that of the three successor nations of the Kievan Rus, only one actually chose to preserve its name for itself, and only one preserved a name for its language that is derived from that name; so a natural consequence is that the adjectives for the common predecessor and that successor will coincide. The other two nations did not choose to retain that name, which is their right, but then demanding that the historical names of their ancestors should be changed retroactively because of that is ridiculous.

It's a bit like demanding that people should retroactively stop calling ancient and medieval India 'India' and its languages 'Hindic' or 'Indo-Aryan' in order to avoid offending the Pakistanis. Besides everything else, the names 'India' and 'Hindu' themselves derive from the name of the region Sindh, which is now a Pakistani province and majority-Muslim. An alternative, 'Greek' strategy may be for the Sindhis to demand that India and the Hindus should rename themselves instead of 'stealing' their name. If the Sindhis don't want to call themselves 'Indian', nobody else should have the right to do it either! A similar demand would be that people should stop calling the Frankish Empire 'Frankish Empire' because it's ancestral not only to France, but also to Germany. If Germany were to be so offended by hearing that it originated from something that sounds French, it should have just stuck to calling itself (East) Francia or something.

Nobody insists on calling Old English 'Old Insular Ingvaeonic' because it also happens to be 'Old Scots', nobody argues against 'Old Dutch' because it is also the ancestor of Afrikaans, against 'Old High German' because it is also the ancestor of Luxembourgish and Yiddish, or against 'Classical Arabic' because it is also the predecessor of Maltese. Next, somebody might insist on abolishing 'Proto-Germanic' because of its 'pro-German bias' and 'erasure' of Englishmen and Swedes, or 'Turkic' because of its 'pro-Turkish bias' and 'erasure' of Uzbeks and the Chuvash. Overall, this is just stupid and politically motivated. --95.42.19.211 (talk) 16:13, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that calling Latin 'Latin' privileges the inhabitants of Latin America and the speakers of Ladino, and calling the Romans 'Roman' privileges the speakers of Romanian and Romansh. This 'erases' French and Spanish people, so the names should obviously be changed. Unfortunately, I can't think of a name that wouldn't privilege somebody - Proto-Romance, Classical Italic etc all have the same problem. --95.42.19.211 (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I have a quibble with the bold statement about an “increasing anti-Russian bias in modern Western linguistics,” and I’d be interested in reliable sources about this. I believe the international scholarly tendency in the last three decades is 1) an increasing awareness of biases inherited from nineteenth and twentieth-century imperial and Soviet historiography in Slavic Studies, and 2) to examine colonial, statist, and other biases in established fields like international relations and emerging ones like identity politics. Perhaps one shouldn’t take it personally. —Michael Z. 20:58, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit too lazy to join in beating the dead horse called bias. (I mean, what if continued "western" usage of Old Russian does not stem from not hidden triune sympathies, but just inertia?) This is an article with a perfect title. Time to move on. It's an article about a language (or an internally differentiated dialect cluster—it's actually not that difficult to reconcile Shevenov with the work of his colleagues), so maybe we should start to inform our readers about what it looked like? No phonology, no grammar? *sigh* (ok, that's me whining; there's Bräuer in my shelf and lots of lit on my hard-drive, so I might add some info some day...)
 * What about the three translations in the parentheses? Some would call it lead clutter; Vulgar Latin is the ancestor of all Romance languages, but we don't have an endless litany there about how that ancestor is called in all its daughter languages. And wait, we're talking about "Old Russian" being obsolete, obsolescent, traditional, biased etc., and there's still "давньоруська мова" in plain sight? What about: Old East Slavic (traditionally also: Old Russian) was a language... –Austronesier (talk) 19:20, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * MOS:LEADLANG doesn’t encourage this, and I’d happily move all of the foreign languages to “Terminology.” A separate issue that I’ve been meaning to broach somewhere is that we don’t need foreign-script text and romanizations everywhere. We need a consistent standard romanization system, like every pro encyclopedia, and the lang templates can offer native script in a tooltip, pop up, or link. Maybe I can get live with “traditionally also” in parens, since it conveys non-primary and diachronic status, but terminology section should still spell it out. —Michael Z. 19:41, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes moving it is better that just removing it, it's important information—and utterly confusing (me mixing up руська with російська is proof of it LOL). Cyrillic text vs. romanizations will also be a challenge when we add more descriptive information. The grammar pages of Belorusian, Russian, Ukrainian are Cyrillic-only (and also the subsection "Primary Chronicle" here), which is acutally bad. Arabic grammar, Chinese grammar, Japanese grammar work with both foreign-script and romanization; Hindustani grammar has romanized text only (for reasons of balance and readability: imagine it having three scripts!). –Austronesier (talk) 20:11, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well phonology articles or sections are different, and sometimes merit use of scientific transliteration, but so many articles just have six language '’names of a thing or person, and multiple scripts and romanizations. This can be made simpler, cleaner, and more informative. Anyway, maybe a separate conversation. —Michael Z.'' 23:10, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Misleading infographic
I think the use of that infographic showing the evolution of the Slavic languages should be reconsidered, because it is very misleading. That graphic is linked from almost all Slaving languages pages. It leads you to believe that it is an illustration of the evolution of the said language when, in fact, it comes from a DNA study. It has nothing to do with the languages themselves, but rather the genetic makeup of their speakers - which is very different. In particular, Macedonian and Bulgarian have been distinct languages only since the late 19th century. Mmom (talk) 22:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I believe you’re misinterpreting the chart. Original source says it’s a “phylogenetic tree of the Balto-Slavic languages” and it’s based on “correlation between genetic, geographic and linguistic distances of Balto-Slavic populations.” Sorry I’m no expert and I can’t take the time to dig into the paper and its references about methodology, but I do believe the chart is about the languages. Perhaps there’s a wikiproject where we can find someone for a more informed interpretation. —Michael Z. 02:02, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * While the paper is indeed a DNA study, there are two linguists (Anna Dybo, Alexei Kassian) among its authors. Obviously, they are responsible for the chart which was produced by means of a phylogenetic analysis of linguistic data. The dating methods of the Moscow School are not universally accepted, but I don't find the chart egregiously undue here. –Austronesier (talk) 20:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The name “Old Russian” is a misnomer. I don’t see why you are against such a basic fact
The name “Old Russian” is a misnomer, and even this source which uses that name admits it. Ermenrich reverted my edit and told to take it to the talk page. Not sure why you can’t start a thread yourself, but I have started one. I’m gonna assume good faith at the beginning, that you are not trying to push a pro-russian POV. If Old East Slavic is the language from which the Belarusian, Russian, Rusyn, and Ukrainian languages later evolved (colored text was taken directly from the article), then calling it Old Russian is a misnomer, and I don’t see any reason why some users would be against it, unless they are trying to push a POV. - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 18:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * This is an online language course. Not the best thing to use. This was also discussed in Talk: Old East Slavic. Mellk (talk) 18:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * , this is an online language course, but it’s still a reliable source. It’s by the University of Texas at Austin Linguistic Research Center. I don’t see any reason to dispute its reliability, and I think it’s good for this cause because despite the fact that it uses the term “Old Russian”, it also explains why it’s inaccurate. - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 18:31, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * We have other better sources that do not say this. Mellk (talk) 18:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * , why is this relevant? Do you have sources that say the name “Old Russian” is not a misnomer? I can take any claim made in any article in Wikipedia and find other better sources that do not say this. - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 18:41, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have you already linked you the discussion above. There is no new argument here. Mellk (talk) 19:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * , The discussion you linked was about removing the name “Old Russian”, not about labeling it as a misnomer. Even the users who were against removing admitted it was a misnomer. Again, I don’t see why you are against calling a misnomer a misnomer. You haven’t made even one comprehensive argument in this entire thread. - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 19:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You may want to read the section properly where how "Old Russian" should be mentioned in the lead was discussed. Mellk (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * , you may want to make an argument instead of constantly linking to an old discussion. In this discussion there’s a quote It's obvious that since several sources call 'Old Russian' a misnomer and no source defends it, it can be designated as a misnomer. If you want to make a comprehensive argument for not calling it a misnomer, you should find at least reliable source that defends that term. - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 20:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Where many RS use "Old Russian" without the authors also saying "also yeah we are using this wrong but whatever". We can say it has been described as a misnomer but stating in wikivoice that it is a misnomer is not WP:NPOV. Mellk (talk) 20:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Done ✅ - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 20:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No, we have a terminology section. Mellk (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I literally just implemented your suggestion and then you say “no”. You haven’t made even one argument in this entire discussion. Stop trying to push a POV in articles related to Kyivan Rus. Thanks, - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 21:14, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * We have a section where the "misnomer" issue is raised. There is no reason to do that in the lead. We are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:18, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the fact that it was called a misnomer will mislead users. The terminology section should describe why it was called a misnomer, and the leader should say that it was called a misnomer. Please stop bludgeoning the process. In fact, this entire thread is WP:BLUDGEON, there was no reason to start it at all. My edits to this article should have just stayed. A reader who reads the article in its current state will not be aware that the name “Old Russian” was criticized by reliable sources. If Wikipedia is indeed an intelligent summary of reliable sources, then it should say in the header that the name “Old Russian” has been criticized or something’s along the lines. - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 21:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Myriads of topics have contentious names or contentious alternative names. We don't have to stuff every secondary information in the lede when we have a specialized section. And the "misnomer"-thing is secondary information (especially for those who have a genuine interest in the topic and don't just hijack it for proxy-warring purposes). "Old Russian" is very much still in use, and this has nothing to do with "POV"; it's just terminological inertia. There are historical reasons why this language was called "Old Russian" for over a century before some linguists started to call it into question for its literal inaccuracy; but note that many specialists from whatever background continue to use it. –Austronesier (talk) 21:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The terminology section also mentions the names “Old Ukrainian” and “Proto Ukrainian”. Why are not they included as alternative names as well? - 🇺🇦 Слава🇺🇦Україні 🇺🇦 Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦 (talk)🇺🇦 21:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If you would read the discussion that already pointed you to, you would know.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:57, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Kievan Rus following the Tatar yoke
The lands of Kievan Rus were divided between the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania way before the end of the Tatar yoke. Muscovy was initially a vassal of the Golden Horde. 67.84.81.241 (talk) 06:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)