Talk:Old English (Ireland)

Untitled
I think it would be a good idea to make this page redirect to Old English language, with a disambiguation link at the top of that page that pointed to a different (presumably new) article for the other definition. Most of the links to this current article are intended for Old English language, and it seems kind of counterproductive to me that the more common (in Wikipedia, at least) use of the term is a disambig link. Any thoughts? -Branddobbe


 * When did this occur? It seems to be quite old...

What, exactly, is the problem with this page? It is about the "Old English" community in Ireland. This is quite clear by the heading "Old English (Ireland)" next to it. The Old English language period ended around 1200AD; the Old English in Ireland only emerged in the 1580s. I see no links about the Old English language, yet for some reason there is a "neutrality of this article" comment. What is the reason for that? Clarity would be nice.


 * I have placed a cleanup tag as I think this is more appropriate. The article is not unusually pov just needs to be structured better. Djegan 17:38, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

HELLO:

I DO NOT THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO REDIRECT THIS PAGE TO OLD ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

THE DIVISION BETWEEN OLD ENGLISH (IRELAND) AND NEW ENGLISH (IRELAND) IS A DEFINING PERIOD IN THE HISTORY OF WORLD, NOT ONLY IRELAND BUT THE USA, AUSTRALIA, NZ, CANADA AND ELSEWHERE. IT IS CRITICAL TO THE UNDERSTANDINGING OF THE HISTORY OF IRELAND AND WHAT CREATED THE TUMULTOUS CHANGES DURING THE 17TH CENTURY THAT LED TO WAVE AFTER WAVE OF EMIGIRATION TO THE USA. JUST CONSIDER THAT 13 OF THE EARLY USA PRESIDENTS HAD PARENTS BORN IN ULSTER OR THEREABOUTS.\

THE ATTACHED ARTICLE UNDER DISCUSSION NEEDS IMPROVEMENT, WITH MORE EMPHASIS ON NEW ENGLISH (IRELAND) AND THE CONSEQENCES. I MAY TO MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO ADD A PARAGRAPH OR TWO.

JOEBROPHY (I AM NEW AT WIKIPEDIA, I AM TRYING TO BE HELPFUL, AND HOPE I AM NOT OVERSTEPPING MY BOUNDS)


 * sorry for all the caps; i must have been typing when the lights ere out; because caps bother me. joe 21:15, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for the remit of this article
I think this article should focus on the early modern- or, actually, the Pale community from around 1556 until 1641- rather than going into the late medieval period. Old English is, I feel, out of context there. El Gringo 21:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it should be slanted in that direction, but the point is that this community's origins and sense of self identity went back much further and this needs to be highlighted.

Some other points I feel need to be raised;firstly, it makes no sense to speak of "Norman" rule at any point in Irish history. Ireland was annexed by Henry II of England, at atime when the ruling class in England was predominantly Norman. Secondly, regarding their identity in the 15th and 16th centuries, a distinction must be made between rural and urban areas. Outside the Pale and the towns, there wasn't much diffrence between the Gaelic and Old English nobility, they spoke Irish, used Brehon law, intermarried, fostered etc. One English observer in the 1590s called the, "the ancient English of Ireland, now Irished utterly".

BUT, the Pale and Cork, Waterford, Limerck etc were a very different story. Up to the end of the 16th century they saw themselves as English. By thistime ther was no question of Norman or Welsh identity. They spoke the English language, used Common Law and most town had laws from the 15th century actually banning Gaelic Irish from living there.

All of these differences became papered over i nthe 17th century due to the all encompassing religious divide, which defined Irish as Catholc an English as Protestant.

Jdorney 20:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Ireland was annexed by Henry II of England"

Henri from Anjou? not quite same as Prince Harry now

Most "Normans" in Ireland were only English in name, coming mostly from WAles not England, probably being able to say little in English. foreigners in 1. England, 2. Wales, finally 3. Ireland.

Many eventually became Anglo-Irish

also remember a sizeable portion of Old English were Irish allowed to become "English "

being Old English was a big tent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.215.3 (talk) 04:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

remember many palesmen were Norse —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.215.3 (talk) 04:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

9 Years' War
"In the subsequent Nine Years War (1594–1603) the Pale and the Old English towns remained loyal[citation needed] to the English Crown during another Catholic inspired rebellion."

Better to say they remained quiet or non-combatant? Not all Old English families remained Catholic, and O'Neill's policy of "join my army or I'll burn you out" in 1600 didn't appeal to many, so his support was from some Gaelic areas. Also, most Leinster Old-E families after 1600 had a branch who were of the opposite religion, and cross-mortgaged properties to each other so as not to lose everything in the next war, e.g. the Plunketts in Co. Meath.Red Hurley (talk) 14:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Ed Said
Sorry to say this doesn't apply: "Philosopher Edward Said has argued that the New English demonisation of the Old English as a barbarian "other" and their construction of their own identity as "civilised" people anticipated the later colonialist and orientalist stereotypes about non-European peoples that gained currency in the 19th century. However, most of the Old English community - especially in the Pale, continued to think of themselves as the English of Ireland, well into the 17th century. (See also Early Modern Ireland 1536-1691)"

...so I've edited it. Said was a clever man, but the English plan after 1570 was to incorporate the Gaelic and Old English groups by policies such as surrender and regrant into their version of civilisation. If you rebelled, you lost your land. Most Irish people didn't join the rebels in the Desmond rebellions or the Nine Years' War, though many assume that they did.Red Hurley (talk) 19:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

True, although there was a greatly underestimated degree of New English attacks on Old English degeneracy with many New English officials believing that the "English-Irish" needed "civilising". Henry Wallop springs immediately to mind. 86.42.65.157 (talk) 00:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)