Talk:Old English Terrier

Images
If it became extinct by 1900, the possibility of finding a photo is quite slim. What is wrong with the painting currently displayed? 64.231.115.217 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Duke


 * Nothing, but we will take other pics, paintings or etchings to build up the article. Cordially SirIsaacBrock 23:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Terrier Names
I have redirected "Old English Terrier" to what the dog is known as today -- the Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier. The term "Old English Terrier" was a shorthand for "Old English Broken-Coated terrier" which later became the Kennel Club Welsh Terrier and the non-Kennel Club Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier; both breeds still exist today and commonly found in the hunt field.

The Old English Terrier is NOT a white dog, and it is not the English White Terrier (a dog known by that name by Vero Shaw, Rawdon Briggs, Brian Plummer and every other dog writer I am aware of).

The original "Old English Terrier" post plagiarised, without attribution the breed description of an Englisg White Terrier from Rawdon Lee Briggs' "Modern Dogs" (1894), and quoted no source for its incorrect assertions about the history of the breed. I have left in Briggs' breed description in the English White Terrier post on Wiki (with attribution, of course), and also quoted extensively from Brigg's decription of that breed and its history. Briggs was a top field dog expert and show ring judge during the entire time that the English White Terrier was a breed. Most of the folks interested in the Black and Tan and English White Terrier are folks cobbling up fake histories for fighting dog breeds, none of which have anything to do with either the Black and Tan terrier or the English White Terrier. - PBurns - PB

Headphonos was asked to come up with a source for his assertion that the "Old English Terrier is the same as the English white terrier. He could cite any source from 1860-1920 when the terrier was extent, or any source from the working terrier literature (i.e. those who hunt their terriers), but not the bulldog literature which is notoriously wrong and full of pretenders.  I noted three sources for my claim from the first group (Rawdon Lee, Vero Shaw and Leighton), and two from the latter (Plummer and Fier-Murza).  Here are the citations offered by Headphonos, which are being deleted as they do not support his claim or are otherwise laughable:


 * 1. Concise Britannica Encyclopedia This article actually refernces the English White Terrier or White English Terrier, proving the opposite of what Headphonos asserts.


 * 2. Depaco This is a bull dog breeders cite of no authority, written in colloquial style and it too says the dog was "probably the White English Terrier, Black and Tan - or/and - the Fox Terrier". In short, it says the opposite of what Headphonos asserts.


 * 3. Old English TerrierThis is a link to a spambot encyclopedia that, like an earlier citation to another spambot web site Headphonos cited, was created purely to sell the ad space around it. The dog shown in the pcture here is a brown and white AKC fox terrier, and it not a "old english terrier" (whatever that is) or an English White terrier (see breed description from Rawdon Lee).

Bottom line: There is no source for Headphonos' claim, and it is being deleted for what it apparently is -- bunk. - PBurns3711


 * Thanks for the info, PBurns3711. I will make a list to sort this out in my brain as I did for the bulldogs. Please see this (still in process and occasionally added to by me) if interested. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 11:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Failure to Use Reliable Sources
Headphonos fails to cite reliable sources. As the Wikipedia guidlines make clear:
 * "If all the sources for a given statement or topic are of low reliability, this suggests to the reader that the content be treated with a degree of skepticism, and to the editor that the material may not be suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia.... Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion can always be considered reliable."

Unfortunately, those are NOT the sources Headphonos cites. Instead, he has engaged in a revert war, again counter to Wikipedia guidelines.
 * "Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it."

In fact, this was done, noting that the Old English Terrier is, in fact, another dog that was far heavier that the toy dog that is the English White Terrier. Headphonos answer to this was to simply "revert" to an incorrect and poorly supported allegation. The above appears to be from 18:56, January 15, 2007 PBurns3711.

PBurns3711 - I agree, completely. I am all for reliable sources. You'll find my participation in at least 3 recent AfDs regarding the bulldogs; sometimes I'm for keeping, sometimes for deletion, depending on my research. I mention the bulldog "mess" since I see a similar kind of "mess" with some of the terriers; Headphonos is involved with articles from each of these dog groups. Keesiewonder 01:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

old english terrier
I am not exactly sure why the Old English Terrier article keeps getting redirected to the White English Terrier article. The White English Terrier is a terrier breed that was created in the late 1800's while the Old English Terrier was created in the 1700's. The Old English Terrier was crossed with the Old English Bulldog to create most of today's Bull and Terrier breeds. The fact that most of the Bull Terrier breeds are far older than the White English Terrier should give enough pause so that one can understand and grasp that a dog create over a century later cannot be the foundation stock of much older breeds.

It is my hope that objective and educational reasoning will prevail concerning the Old English Terrier vs. the English White Terrier. They are not the same breed and they never have been.

There is only one Old English Terrier registered with a Registry, and that is not the White English Terrier. Working terriers (talk) 04:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppets
I suspect that the three editors that keep editing this article are the same person ie: sockpuppets: User:Working terriers, User:NationalTerriersClub, User:PuppetMasterKnls, User:Rascal43. Chessy999 (talk) 20:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The white english terrier is not an "Old English Terrier", nor is the white english terrier even remotely related to one. Working terriers (talk) 22:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, the Old English Terrier is an extinct breed of dog, those pics are not an OET. Please stop reverting the article or I will report it to an administrator. Chessy999 (talk) 11:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The White English Terrier was created in the 1860's, yet the Old English Bulldog was extinct decades before that. The old english Terrier's were bred to these Old English Bulldogs in the 1700's. The cross created the Bull and Terrier in the 1700's. To arbitrarily declare that the White English Terrier was the terrier use in the 1700's to create the Bull and Terrier is outright deceitful. There is only one Old English Terrier registered with any registry, and that is the Old English Terrier registered by the National Terriers Club LLC. The White English Terrier was never registered with any registry, or by any registry, as an Old English Terrier. Working terriers (talk) 12:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect you are right Chessy999 about the three users being the same person. We have been having a huge row with "Working Terriers" over on the American Pit Bull Terrier page over him not citing his references and ruining the tone of the article. He seems to not understand what a valid citation is and I suspect that he is the owner of the National Terriers Club which he insists on claiming as a valid source reference even though he has been explained to by multiple users why it is not and a discussion has been started about it on the reliable sources noticeboard here. We had to have a third party come in to help resolve the dispute after the page was locked to get him to concede and I suspect the same thing is going to have to happen here. This user should be blocked from editing Wikipedia articles in my opinion. Dablyputs (talk) 15:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Working Terriers
Hey Donald (Working Terriers), why do you insist on putting up pictures of Pit Bulls on this page. You are really diminishing the quality and reliability of the dog pages on wikipedia. Dablyputs (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe they could be Great Danes, or Mastiffs! You sure you dont want to call them Poodles, or Labs? lol. What is the standard for the "Pit Bull"? 35 pounds to 65 pounds, and every color under the sun? The first picture is of a 18 pound male, the second is of a 24 pound male, and the third one is a picture of a 7 month old 12 pound female. I bet you look at patterdales and Fell Terriers and call them "Pit Bulls" too. You are a vandal with your constant and wild claims. Go vandalize a different artical, please. Working terriers (talk) 23:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * At least one of those dogs pictured in the article are obviously pit bull puppies. I suspect that you are the owner of the National Terriers Club LLC website and that makes your citation of that site in this or any other article a serious conflict of interest. You are either plagiarizing that site since your edits obviously come directly from this page: including the photos which you claim to be your own, or the photos are your own and thus your edits are here only to promote your company. I will continue pursuing this on the reliable sources noticeboard.  Dablyputs (talk) 19:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * While you are at it you might as well pursue the martians on mars, who really shot kennedy, and re-open the x-files. Instead of vandalizing the article with your crazy talk and constant removal of all pictures and references, you ought to join the starship interprise and help Mr. Kirk defeat the Cleons. Working terriers (talk) 22:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've updated the Conflict of Interest Notice Board Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard. Now I have to go and fight the cleons, if I could just figure out what that is. Dablyputs (talk) 15:54, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

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Page redirected
Following (unopposed) consensus in this discussion, this page was redirected to Black and Tan Terrier. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)