Talk:Old German Baptist Brethren

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my dad is german baptist so i can tell if people post untrue thingsReady78 21:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Ready78

I am Old German Baptist, I have some information I will be adding to these pages.

my dad is of this faith and I will be soon we do hvee car and a few othr thing no email and such I only do because I am not a member yet and will not much longer other wise I think this was ok

So do you know any Landes' from Ohio????? Boobear77--68.63.233.214 19:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Oregon?
Where is the church in Oregon? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.191.17.168 (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Dallas (10-15 minutes west of salem) If you are familiar with the area, take Perrydale north out of dallas to Beck Road, and go west on beck a mile or two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.176.54 (talk) 20:38, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

pacifism
They are too pacifists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.151.6.98 (talk) 00:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

That might depend on your definition of pacifist. Pacifists sometimes serve as noncombatant military personnel, so long as they may avoid involvement of physical aggression/violence. OGBBs avoid military and political involvement in every way, as conscientous objectors. Their stand is primarily a religious one, whereas pacifism does not require such by definiton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.200.101.21 (talk) 18:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

CULT!!

This church is nothing more than a cult with a few Christians sprinkled here and there. They force their members to obey certain rules, among them a specific dress code, and will remove them from fellowship if these rules are not followed. They do not believe in mission work either and they think they are the only Christians on the planet. I know a handful of GBs and they don't know Jesus Christ any more than your average unbeliever on the street. I understand many have converted to Christianity in the last few years and have left the church. sw56 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sw56 (talk • contribs) 20:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a soapbox. 66.191.19.150 (talk) 17:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

If I may, sw56, wikipedia is hardly the place for personal or theological attacks. Your comments are both inaccurate and unkind. To be fair, your description might fit 10% of them, and if you truly are familiar with them, you are also aware that the OGBBChurch is undergoing massive changes and a possible large-scale divide this year due to the concerns you so gently have expressed. For the sake of those unfamiliar with the fellowship, outside of wikipedia, leave your ammo at home. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.53.123.147 (talk) 17:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

To address your rant above, OGBB don't believe they are the only Christians. All churches require members to obey rules, and any church worth belonging to removes people from fellowship who don't show forth the fruit of the Spirit. Does your church require you to wear clothes? Then it has clothing rules. Go to church in Speedos and see if you don't have rules. Beyond that is a matter of degree, not kind. You might try a larger sample than your handful, sw56, and see if they "know Jesus Christ." Or you might stop trying to figure out who the "real Christians" are. Some call it judgement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brechbill123 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Form of pacificism.
As the article stands now, there is a sentence that reads "They are not pacifists, however, in the same way as Quakers; although the OGBB is one of the historic Peace Churches."

It begs the question, how is their stance different than that of the Quakers? 66.191.19.150 (talk) 17:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The OGBBs differ in that they will not take any military position, be it soldier, chaplain, or cook, or any public office either, feeling that to do so would be an endorsement of using the sword, which they believe Scripture does not allow Christians to do, whereas many Quakers take the liberty to engage in such positions if they so desire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.53.123.147 (talk) 17:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the Conservative Friends would serve in the military. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brechbill123 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

It may not be a soapbox, but OGBB is as close to a cult as you can get, if you don't want to call it one. my sisiter has cu ther ties with her family because her husband believes that opur parents marriage was against God. He has isolated her, he keeps her from buying clothes, having friends, outside of the group,all in the name of the religion. It was not my parents first marriage but the OGBB belives that to attend a vow renewal for a couple who have been married for ninetten years is wrong. I have always had respect for other religions but not one that believes that its better to cut the ties you have with your family, and abuse your wife,than be a part of the love the family has always had for each other. Chalk these people up to just another cult. that is what they are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.198.54.228 (talk) 15:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The stand that German Baptists, conservative and Old Order Mennonites, and the Old Order Amish take against divorce and remarriage is the same stand that Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and all other ancient eastern churches take. If that makes them a cult, so are almost all the rest of the people in the world who call themselves Christians. Whatever personal problems and divisions that stand may have caused in your family may be painful, but that is hardly grounds for accusations that the Brethren groups are cults. I understand your pain, but Wikipedia is not a place for these kinds of attacks or for your soapbox.198.229.244.177 (talk) 00:07, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment on "Pacifism"
The entire debate surrounding this argument is a semantic one. Within the OGBB churches, an attempt is often made to artificially differentiate their position, which they call 'nonresistance', from 'pacifism', which some OGBBs tend to view as a being a term which describes a "worldly", political position, etc. The OGBB (and Old Brethren, and Dunkard Brethren, etc.) definition of 'pacifism' is idiosyncratic, and the difference they make between these two terms is largely synthetic. One might have a VERY difficult time explaining this to someone raised OGBB, however. Conversely, if a person was not raised OGBB, it will likely be very difficult to understand their unusual way of using these terms. For all intents and purposes, for all who were not raised OGBB, they (and the other Old Order Brethren groups) are indeed pacifists. JMCooper (talk) 06:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

It might be better said that Pacifism encompasses nonresistance, but does not insist upon it. Hence, not all pacifists are nonresistant, whereas all nonresistants are pacifists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.210.148.118 (talk) 23:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is a very interesting and somewhat complicated one. I still believe the claim that the terms 'nonresistance' and 'pacifism' are not, to a large extent, the same thing is in error. Both terms are used in a wide variety of ways. The term 'nonresistance' has been, and often is used to describe beliefs and practices that would not fit the definition the term is given by many conservative Brethren and Mennonite groups. It is obvious in reading Tolstoy, for example, that he did not mean entirely the same thing by the term that OGBBs do. (He was, of course, writing in Russian, and using a Russian counterpart to the term in question. Interestingly, Tolstoy himself cited a book on the concept of nonresistance, written by a 19th century Reformed Mennonite minister, as having been an influence upon his thinking.) Among other examples that could be cited, is the use of the term by the Apostolic Christian Church. The ACs are also an Anabaptist denomination, and though they will serve in the military as non-combatants, in contrast with the OGBBs, they still call their teaching on the subject of just to what extent they will participate in warfare 'nonresistance'. I will still maintain that what we are speaking about in this particular case is an idiosyncratic definition that has been given the word 'nonresistance' by various traditional Anabaptist groups, which is by far a narrower definition than it is given by many others. I believe that it might be better to explain that OGBBs, among others, are speaking of a very specific form of nonresistance (or pacifism). It simply isn't correct to maintain that they are not pacifists, nor is it fitting to use a non-standard definition (i.e. the OGBB definition) of the term in an encyclopedia article. JMCooper (talk) 06:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the OGBB view of non-resistance/pacifism differs from the Quaker view. There are Quakers, mostly Conservative Friends who see it just the same way. It would be more enlightening to simply describe them as non-resistant, and discuss the differences between non-resistance and political pacifism in another article. (maybe link to "non-resistance" or "pacifism") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.42.21.188 (talk) 22:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

New Conference
Developments in the New Conference that occur after the 2009 schism should not be documented on this page since they have seceded from the Old German Baptist Brethren, the group covered by this page. Someone well acquainted with the New Conference should author a separate page on their group. All references to Annual Meeting Minutes in particular no longer apply to the New Conference. It will be too confusing to continue to describe New Conference developments on the wiki page describing the Old German Baptist Brethren. It would be akin to covering the Church of the Brethren and the Brethren Church on the same page; they are two distinct (albeit related) organizations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.143.37.173 (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

There is an Old German Baptist Brethren (New Conference) stub started (if it doesn't get deleted). Why don't somebody add enough references to the thing to make it stand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.42.21.188 (talk) 21:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Now the New Conference page has been deleted, so the Old German Baptist Brethren page needs some editing. As it is, the New Conference section is too big.Brechbill123 (talk) 18:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The Church in Michigan is New Conference. I suspect that some of the other listed Churches are as well but I'm not sure how things finally settled out. I attended at Scottville for over a decade. 209.161.170.254 (talk) 20:30, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

List of Congregations?
I'm trying learn which factions my former neighbors are in. (I grew up with their kids in the 60s and 70s, and moved away in the 80s.) Would it be appropriate to list the congregations that remain in the old conference, and which joined the new?

They were excellent neighbors and their kids were great friends. I don't believe they are a cult - except according to the correct dictionary definition by which all religions are cults. Yes, there were a couple of arrogant people attending the church near my house, who would rant about my own religion the way people on this page have been ranting about Old German Baptists, but I'm not about to judge an entire faith group on the basis of a couple of misfits.

Long before reading this page, I had identified the so-called Anti-Cult Movement as one of the worst Mind-Control Cults around. (In my view, any group that practices bigotry such as that displayed elsewhere on this page is a mind-control cult.) Downstrike (talk) 06:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Translation of the term "Täufer"
There exist two seperated terms for baptists in German: "Täufer" and "Baptisten", the letter one being closer to the English term Baptists To avoid confusion one should not translate "Täufer" with Baptist(s). Is there any article that clarifies this issue? Or does anybody know how to differentiate more clearly? Jjh1993 (talk) 14:51, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Technology and plain dress / an outsider's perspective.
This article has obviously been written largely by people who have some close connection with the church, and who assume that readers of the article already have an understanding about German Baptist. The article focuses largely on areas of controversy within the German Baptist community, or makes theological distinctions between German Baptist and other Anabaptist. However, for most people who were not raised in a German Baptist community, the most distinctive thing about the group is the rejection of modern technologies (cars, tv's, radio, computer, etc) and the plain dress.

An outsider coming to this article is most likely to want to know what the rules related to technology are. (I know some of the "rules" but not the details. I know some German Baptist drive cars and some don't.  I think some have electricity at home, and some don't.  As far as I know none have tv's at home.  I think all are permitted to use at least some forms of technology at work, i.e. they can farm with tractors instead of horse-drawn ploughs).

I'm not sure what rules there are related to "plain dress". I know it is more restrictive on women, and that women usually (maybe always?) wear dresses and bonnets. I'm not sure what the rules are for men. (Do the men have to wear a beard after marriage?).

There isn't really any talk about children before joining the church. I know children are given a choice of whether or not to join. I think most join as teenagers. If they leave later they are shunned, but those who never join are not shunned. I might be wrong about this, though.

I think these are the things an outsider coming to this article will be most interested in, but the article doesn't talk about any of these things. Could anyone who has more knowledge about these things than me address them in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:161B:4092:9097:E49E:98BE:E3FE (talk) 04:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I grew up Old German Baptist Brethren and my parents are still a part of the Old Conference church, though I am neither denomination. Perhaps I can address some of your questions. It is important to note the article's mention of the theological divide between the Old and New Conference in 2009. This means that essentially there are 2 churches taking similar names: Old German Baptist Brethren Church (OLD CONFERENCE) and Old German Baptist Brethren Church (NEW CONFERENCE). These are often abbreviated as (OC) and (NC). Since 2009, the two churches do not hold the exact same theological stances, and therefore it is important to distinguish which conference you are referring to when referencing the Old German Baptist Brethren Church.

Since my experience was growing up in the home of Old German Baptist Brethren pre-2009 split, I can't speak significantly of the changes that have been made after this time. I can tell you I have family members in both the (OC) and the (NC) branches and can personally ask either of them questions if you have specific questions you would like to address.

Cars are allowed in both the Old and New Conference churches. However, in past years there have been certain regions (called "districts,") that had stricter limitations on cars, but this is mostly subject to peer pressure and is not upheld by any church regulations, per se. For example, some areas strongly suggested the use of dark colored vehicles such as a dark blue, black, or dark green, for reasons of not standing out as a sporty vehicle, for example. Bright colors such as yellow or red would be discouraged as it is not perceived to be as humble. However, there are no actual rules on this and is based on one's individual beliefs and/or the peer pressure of your local church. As far as I know, you would not be ex-communicated for driving a red or yellow vehicle, even if it is discouraged for reasons of humbleness and modesty. In my experience, this also depended somewhat on the local climate as well; for example, colder regions preferred darker colored vehicles, whereas those in the warmer climates (such as California) chose lighter colored vehicles (such as tans, whites, or silver) for reasons of practicality (collecting less solar heat e summer months). Some districts also discourage fancy wheels, extravagant wheel rims, or anything that would make your vehicle more fashionable, such as license plate lights or under body lighting. Some trucks may be perceived as fashionable; however, if there is a practical or work use for the vehicle (such as a large 4x4 truck for farm use, for example) it has generally been allowed. I do not know any Old German Baptist Brethren that do not allow the use of cars. There have been a few other churches with German or Baptist in the name that have forbidden vehicles, but these churches are not a part of this article.

As far as I know, both the (OC) and the (NC) strongly discourage the use of TVs, to present day. I have heard of some (NC) members trying to have a TV, but I think it has been highly discouraged and criticized, and most (if not all) have either removed their TV or left the (NC) entirely, at their choice. I have never heard of any (OC) members trying to have a TV at all. The general thought behind this is that a television is primarily used for entertainment purposes, whereas some other digital devices such as cell phones, computers, iPads, etc. may have business uses or purposes, and in some cases may be mandatory for work purposes (depending on the line of work, of course.)

Radios have traditionally been forbidden in Old German Baptist Brethren church member's homes and vehicles. This again fell under the category of "entertainment," as radios were primarily a source of entertainment, especially at their introduction when they first were invented. One notable exception to this has been in the use of two-way or emergency use radios, as Old German Baptist Brethren members have been allowed to be members of Paramedic teams, emergency response crews, and local fire departments, where the use of such technology is mandatory for the job. In more recent years, I have heard of more and more cases, especially among the (NC) when a radio was present, especially with the use of gospel music or Christian hymns. This also has had a historical context of being more strict in certain districts than others, with the Eastern United States districts holding a traditionally stricter stance on the use of the radio than the Western districts. As far as I know, the official stance of both the (OC) and the (NC) is no radios, but someone can correct me if I am wrong, especially since I don't know much about the (NC).

Personal computers were initially seen as a business device, prior to the invention of gaming devices, entertainment, etc. For this reason, the Old German Baptist Brethren church allowed their use as business devices. However, as early as the 1990s, some districts of the brotherhood had strict admonishment against the use of computers for entertainment and gaming purposes. Although some have suggested the 2009 split of the Old and New Conference churches were based on the acceptance or lack thereof of the internet, this not officially the case. The New Conference has generally been more accepting of the use of internet, especially for business purposes, whereas the Old Conference since 2009 has officially permitted the use of the internet ONLY through 3rd-party sources (such as your employer, for example). In extreme cases I have heard of (OC) members quitting their jobs due to conscience, since they were forced to use the internet in their career positions. However, this is a matter of personal choice and not one of a rule, since the OC officially allows use of 3rd-party internet (at the workplace, for example) provided your employer is using this for their business.

The plain dress can certainly seem more restrictive on women than on men. As a female, I have long wondered why this is the case, since the official reason given for the plain dress is "modest apparel," and that would certainly apply to both men and women, however the verse that is commonly used to uphold this belief is 1 Timothy 2:9-10, which specifically lists women but not men. Ironically, Old German Baptist Brethren have historically considered female children's braided hair as "modest," when the scripture specifically lists this as being immodest ("plaited" or "broided" hair, depending on translation, found in I Timothy 2:9). When I questioned apparel, I was also told that pants/slacks/jeans were not appropriate attire for women since they were "mens apparel," based on Deuteronomy 22:5, no matter how modest the cut of the pant/slacks/jeans may be. This seems a little odd when arguing that the reason for women's long dresses are "modesty," when the cut and choice of the dress they use is actually very immodest (tight, form fitting waistline, very fitted style often made of body-hugging fabrics). Indeed, how tight or loose the dress is fitted could change this, but the general trend in both OC and NC female dress is fitted and close to the human form. There is no requirement in either OC or NC for men to grow a beard once married, and indeed there is in fact no indicators without knowing the individual if the person is married or unmarried, since the use of jewelry is discouraged as "bodily adornment." However, in the OC church it is strongly discouraged for men to shave off their beard once a beard has been grown. I assume the same is true in the NC, though I do not know this for a fact. Mustaches are viewed as "fashionable," and therefore unacceptable. Traditionally, male members of the church ("Brethren,") wear broadfalls, or pants with buttons instead of zippers in the front, which is commonly seen in sailor-pants in the US military. When zippers were first introduced, they were considered "fashionable." However, over time, the use of broadfall pants has fallen to only formal occasions, such as church functions and events, church services, or weddings, if at all, in some districts of the NC, and in some particular regions in the OC as well. Therefore, just standard button down shirts and pants is generally the attire of most Old German Baptist Brethren men, which is not very different (if at all) from anyone else and is often not recognizable or distinguishable from anyone else.

Children are generally raised with more modest-style garments. Girls are usually required to wear skirts with modest blouses or dresses, boys are generally required to wear full-length pants (as opposed to shorts or knee-length pants) once they enter approximately school age. Little boys, usually under school age, may be permitted to wear shorts or short pants. However, the girls are not required to wear any head covering of any sort until they are baptized and formally join the church. The girls may or may not be required to have long hair, depending on the family's convictions. Some choose to never cut their girl's hair; others have no issue with cutting the hair. The hair is a matter of personal conviction for the family. Braided styles, often in french braids, are common, as are a simple bun-style.

The following is my personal view and may be controversial. Some may disagree with the following statement. Children are subject to some level of peer pressure, varying from moderate to extremely intense, in order to join the church starting about age 14, when they are permitted to attend events called "YOUNG FOLKS" events. These events include a special summer camp in some areas of the country, canoe trips, as well as volleyball and softball events in local areas and at the Annual Conference. The general age for attending these events is age 14 until the individual becomes married. The preaching-style at these events tends to lean heavily on fire-and-brimstone, emphasizing God's wrath if one does not "convert, repent, and be baptized," and therefore join the Old German Baptist Brethren Church. Note that according to the Bible the events are exactly as stated: 1) conversion 2) repentance and 3) baptism as an outward symbol of an inwardly changed being. However, in the Old German Baptist Brethren traditions, the conversion, repentance, baptism and joining of the church are considered ALL ONE STEP. The act of baptism itself is considered the "saving factor," and therefore all young people are pressured to join to "save themselves from the wrath of Hell." It is implied that any one that has any self-respect or self-value will join this church simply to avoid the wrath of God. This is Biblically erroneous. The teaching of this theology is considered a "works," or the act of baptism as saving, rather than acceptance of Jesus' atonement for one's sins being the saving factor (which is the biblical theologically sound approach). Because of this, many young people join the church and leave not long after, because they view themselves as having been "saved" (baptized,) and fail to realize that the conversion of one's heart and the acceptance of Christ's sacrifice as an atonement for sins is the saving factor, not the act of baptism itself (which is an outward act of an inwardly changed person). If a teen or young adult fails to join, more peer pressure is applied on the individual. Sometimes families will not associate with the family member than fails to comply. This can go on for a period of months or as long as 5-10 years. Most families will eventually speak again; however, this is also not a strong rule. There can be exceptions. Divorce is also a matter of "unofficial" shunning in some family circles. Shunning is not official church doctrine. The Doctrinal Treatise (the official guidebook to the church) never says to shun your child/children. However, I can say with certainty that this is a fact in some individual families, even if it is not a church rule; it varies from peer pressure to actually cutting off contact with the family member. I believe this addresses all of your questions. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.151.198.103 (talk) 22:22, 8 September 2017 (UTC)