Talk:Old fashioned (cocktail)

Soda water!
This is all unencylopedic as hell, but the link provided goes into such vast detail as to the importance of soda water not being added, that I didn't want to link to the wikibooks recipe which suggested adding soda water. I suggest reading the linked article if you have any interest in this, it traces the drink back for centuries. --Xyzzyplugh 15:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

the old fashioned predates the production of soda water, fact. /end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 08:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

centries huh? thumbs up if youre still reading this in 2057 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 23:56, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR
WP:ENGVAR says that if an article starts out wiht US or UK terminology, it should not be changed, unless the subject has a clear tie to one country or the other (like the American Civil War or William Shakespeare, for example). This article started out with ounces, and it should remain thus. I have added the ml equivalents. Thesite used as a reference was  for how many ml to a dash or a jigger. Edison (talk) 01:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I tried to add a short note that Russian sugar cubes are a different size than American ones, and may use sugar from a different source, and it was rejected. I can't see why, unless it was because I put it under "Notes." I am new to contributing, so I may not know where to place something. Thanks. Max481WwRG (talk) 02:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * According to WP:ENGVAR, as you refer to, "Strong national ties to a topic" have to be considered. Since this drink was invented in the U.S., that resolves the issues as far as I'm concerned.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 22:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move: "Old Fashioned" → "Old-fashioned"
Both Merriam-Webster's Dictionary and the American Heritage Dictionary list the word as "old-fashioned" rather than "Old Fashioned." It is neither capitalized nor separated into two words. 24.6.179.152 (talk) 08:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * As noted in the article, it's an IBA Official Cocktail, and the IBA calls it an "OLD FASHIONED". That may not help with the capitalization question, but it does say something about the dash. Also please note that the WP:DASH style guide says that a dash is used to create a compound modifier (a compound adjective or compound adverb), but not a compound noun. Here I believe "Old Fashioned" is a noun. As for the capitalization, I think that "Old fashioned" appears too much like an adjective rather than a proper name. This page is about a specific named drink, so I think the capitalization is appropriate. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Google, and other various popular websites put it as 'Old fashioned'. However, as a year 6 English class will tell you, names with more than 1 word (e.g. North Carolina) do have capital letters on both. I don't have an opinion on this topic. FeelmywrathH (talk) 04:36, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

"cl." ???
What the hell measurement is a "cl."? :| I couldn't find it on Wikipedia. An Old Fashioned calls for "4 cl." . --24.21.148.155 (talk) 02:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

centiliter 68.8.109.218 (talk) 10:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

A centiliter is one hunderedth of a liter. ie. 1 cl of water is 10 grams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.189.106.121 (talk) 17:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps more intuitively than converting to grams (which depends on the density of the fluid), 1 cl is 10 ml, so a 50 ml miniature (airline-size) drink bottle is 5 cl (and some of them are labeled that way). There's a photo of such a bottle at File:Jack daniels 5cl.jpg —BarrelProof (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Recipe
The Drinkboy cited article is very dated & superseded by newer publications and research that contradict Hess' speculation that curacao "may have been added to increase the orange flavor". Cited speculation is still just speculation and alcohol, sugar, bitters and water with Curacao was is noted in several publications as The "Plain Cocktail" contemporaneously. 157.166.167.129 (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Named after fashion the horse

 * You would need a reliable source the specifically says "The drink is named after the racing horse" otherwise it is simply a Wikipedia editor making up conclusions from connecting some dots, which is not allowed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  19:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Applejack: The spirit of americana 1992 laird and company

cocktail old fashion: https://www.amazon.com/Cocktail-Old-Fashion-cocktail-fashioned-ebook/dp/B01IFDMXX0

It looks like there are a few reliable sources that say "The drink is named after the racing horse" and not otherwise simply making up conclusions from connecting some dots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.112.66.211 (talk) 14:19, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

How do people not know this?2600:1:C6A6:2E5B:989A:607:25A6:B66C (talk) 00:52, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * NOTE: This user is blocked. ^ -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:16, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Bad picture
C'mon, that picture has got to go. While (as the article points out) it is possible to have a "gin Old Fashioned", 99.99999% of Old Fashioned are dark in color. Un sch  ool  01:54, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. Un sch  ool  01:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Looking at the history, it appears that the picture I've placed in there was already in use for years, and that the picture I took out had only been there for a few months. A few others have also been used, but only the one I took out showed a clear drink. Un  sch  ool  02:05, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The picture there now looks as if there's an eyeball in the glass. Yuck! Forgot to sign. WHPratt (talk) 14:32, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

American Trilogy
I blank-and-redirected the American Trilogy Cocktail to this page and moved the relevant information over. Jip Orlando (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Honoring James E. Pepper?
The article says the drink was invented "in honor of Colonel James E. Pepper", citing a 1935 work by Albert Stevens Crockett, The Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book. Personally, I doubt that is true. I suspect that Pepper helped popularize the drink but had no role in its invention. Also, Pepper was a well-known self-promoter, so if the story came from what he said in the bar at the Waldorf-Astoria, it may stretch the truth. I do not have a copy of that book. Does someone else have a copy? Are there any independent reliable sources that confirm this claim? —BarrelProof (talk) 03:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Its free on google books along with thousands of other 20th,19th,18th, and 17th century recipe books. The book doesn't even talk about pepper, its just recipes, nothing significant, and pepper certainly had no role in the drinks creation. The lairds are 100% responsible for the cocktail and old fashion. I am responsible for letting the lairds know they were responsible for those drinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:5000:D9A:F487:AD95:9CF9:6FA0 (talk) 18:10, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The Lairds have zero to do with it. Also the Old Fashioned was called that before the Pendennis Club existed. I will correct the article later. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:42, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

where is the literature showing the old fashioned before pendennis club? where?

and modern american drinks by george kappeler list a brandy old fashion. There is nothing to argue here. These are facts. Unless you are claiming that modern american drinks in 1900 does not list a brandy old fashion? is that your claim? because it really sounds like it is.

Which part are you not understand? The laird's owning fashion? (spirit of american in 1992 and numerous 1837-1860 newpaper articles)

Or that kappeler list a brandy old fashion in modern american drinks on page 6?

Or that there was a 1784 repeal of a 1783 ban on all imports, including cocktails, it was the repeal that allowed the first six. Are you denying the repeal?

Or are you denying the laird's owned, raised, trained, and rode medley and diomed? who were granddame and grandsire to fashion. (in a diary of american plays in 1833)

Which fact are you denying?

Having trouble getting your tennessee friend to ban me? I have done nothing wrong, just asking questions to your claims. If you are going to be bold and make bold claims, then I shouldbe allowed to inquire.

Im having trouble understanding what you dont understand, or why you think you know more than me.

lol. GOD it's so lonely at the top.

Still waiting for anyone to be able to answer any of these correctly. When will you people realize there is levels to this and its clear im at the top level with no one else.

1. Name 2 real drinks that call for apricot flavored brandy. There are at least 3.

2. Name one real drink that calls for blackberry flavored brandy.

3. Name 2 real drinks that call for cherry flavored brandy.

4. Name 3 real drinks that call for creme de banana.

5. Name one real drink that calls for yellow chartreuse, there are at least 2.

6. Name 2 real drinks that call for green chartreuse, no, Last word is not a real drink. There are at least 3.

7. What does the mint julep, hot toddy, and crusta all have in common?

8. What primary spirit did the original old fashioned call for?

9. What Primary spirit did the original cocktail call for?

10. Name 2 real drinks that call for sherry.

11. Name 3 real drinks that call for wine.

12. Name 5 real drinks that predate the cocktail

13. what is the difference between a julep and a smash

14. name 3 drinks that originally contained rack or arrack.

15. The brandy milk punch dates to what century?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:5000:d9a:785d:21da:5259:385c (talk) 03:14, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Let's please try to stick to the topic here. This Talk page is about how to improve the content of the Old Fashioned article. Let's please focus on helping each other find reliable sources of information about the drink and understanding what they say. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:20, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

An Encyclopædia of Rural Sports: Or, Complete Account, Historical, ... Delabere Pritchett Blaine - 1852 “Many fox hunters,” he says, “prefer thorough-bred horses, others cocktails; I always gave the preference to the former, ... Fashion reigns omnipotent; hence it is that the crack sportsmen of the present day, who follow the fox pack."

Wallace's Monthly - Volume 10 - Page 188 John H. Wallace - 1884

“Mr. Wallace has thoroughly weaned me from my “cocktail theories; and I am now ready to go the full length of his teachings, which, I understand, he expressed in the old-fashion cocktail, 'Breed to the winner'—if for running, to the runner"

The Clothier and Furnisher - Volume 19 - Page 51 1889

"I AM glad to note that my recondit confrire in relation to all that is worth the telling in the world of fashion and the accepted arbiter for the settlement of the mere question of men's attire. Dinner is invited with an old-fashion brandy cocktail."

Dickens's Dictionary of the Thames, from Its Source to the Nore, ... Charles Dickens - 1893

"Cocktails are easy to concoct with the assistance of two metal cups with a bevelled edge, to enable them to fit closely together when required. Old fashion brandy cocktail. The best jug for this punch is one of the old-fashioned brown Uncle Toby sort."

How about that? Does that pertain to the old fashioned? No, it pertains to the old fashion, but believe what you want. Literature apparently means nothing here. I have read so many cocktail guides and recipe books that not only can I tell you, that what you are saying about a cocktail is wrong or right, but I can tell you the original source where you got that information, okay. Different Level.

You have no earthly idea what it is like to have the next closest person that comprehends anywhere near my level still probably knows only 35%, thats being very very generous. You have no idea what it feels like. There is no room to sit down at the top, so even if the next closest person started studying hard right now, it would still take them 15 years to get to where I am at right now, can you imagine where ill be in 15 years. lol.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:5000:d9a:785d:21da:5259:385c (talk) 06:42, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

The first mention of the Old Fashioned is in the Chicago Daily Tribune in February of 1880. The source I linked clearly states that. The other sources listed here are bogus. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:58, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

IP user (talk) IS A SOCKPUPPET of banned user DrinkReader. Same paranoid raving as before. How do we go about blocking him before he clutters up the talk page any more? -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:54, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 8 November 2019

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. This is a somewhat close call, and ironically is also close to being a WP:Bartender's close. There is a solid consensus that the article should not be at the current title, with a mix of sources using different capitalization militating towards a lowercase disambiguation, which would therefore require disambiguation absent a primary topic determination. As there has been no such determination here, and the sole comment specifically supporting such a determination has received no additional support, the result defaults to a disambiguated outcome. BD2412 T 04:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

– Simple case fix. Sources don't treat the drink name "old fashioned" as a proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 06:17, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Old Fashioned → Old fashioned (cocktail)
 * Old Fashioned glass → Old fashioned glass
 * Comment The proposed title in the first move would be very confusing to readers as there are many uses for this term, and therefore I would suggest moving Old Fashioned to Old fashioned (cocktail), and Old Fashioned glass to Old fashioned glass. 64222368Z260O (talk) 06:40, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I overlooked the need for disambiguation. I've updated the proposed move, to Old fashioned (cocktail), consistent with supporters' comments. Dicklyon (talk) 04:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Support move to lowercase. This is one of several cocktail articles that need to be brought in line with MOSCAPS' guidance. Primergrey (talk) 18:28, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. "Old Fashioned" is a proper name just like "Bloody Mary" and "Blue Hawaii". -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:19, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose I fail to see how it's not a proper name and would be confusing per WP:SURPRISE.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 07:17, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Support Old fashioned (cocktail). Clearly not a proper name (since anyone can make or sell one) and not the primary meaning for the term. Would prefer Lowball glass for the glass, since an "old fashioned glass" could mean something entirely different and I really don't think this is the common name for it anyway. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:18, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that Lowball glass would be a better title for the glass. Dicklyon (talk) 21:12, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment sources are mixed on capitalization. For example, these books dedicated to the cocktail uses "Old Fashioned" throughout, . This one does not: The Mirror Cracked (talk) 16:11, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed, sources are mixed. MOS:CAPS says we go with lowercase in that case.  That last book clearly distinguished the generic old-fashioned from the trademarked Oaxaca Old-Fashioned. Dicklyon (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per MOS:CAPS, WP:NCCAPS, and previous RMs of this sort. The very fact that "sources are mixed" means "use lower case". That's the first rule of MOS:CAPS and of NCCAPS. Why do we keep having to go over this with the same people again and again and again?  Just read the guidelines, please.  This "oppose down-casing of everything just to oppose it" stuff is getting into WP:TE territory.  People who keep !voting in these RMs with "But it's a proper name!" objections simply don't know what "proper name" means, in either the the linguistics sense (the one we care about in naming and style discussions) or even the philosophy sense.  It's just a sorely confused argument.  Hint: "Michelob Light" is a proper name; "light beer" is not.  And "blue Hawaii"  a proper name, but is not one, any more than "this cloudy, depressing Monday", or "religiously conservative Ireland", or "reconstructed Proto-Indo-European language" are proper-noun phrases simply because they contain proper names and have particular, singular referents.  ("Bloody Mary" actually  a proper name, like "Tricky Dick"; it's the nickname of a specific person. If you name a drink "Tricky Dick", it'll remain a proper name, same as if you name a drink "Michael Jackson". This is not difficult.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:51, 16 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Support move to lowercase. We don't use upper case for "green tea" although we perhaps do when named after a person such as "Earl Grey". Do include " (cocktail)" to distinguish an old fashioned from the phrase old fashioned. VIOLENTRULER (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:19, 17 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment In my experience, "Old Fashioned" is not a STYLE of cocktail, it is the PROPER NAME of A specific cocktail, just like "Martini" is not a style of cocktail but the proper name of a specific cocktail. Although, I am perhaps biased towards US usage. In other countries the name might be used differently. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 19:50, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It's just as specific as a "gin and tonic" or a "Manhattan (cocktail)". That doesn't make it a proper name. The Manhattan uses a proper name, so it's capped.  And Martini is most often not capped in sources, even though it may derive from a proper name; check the article Martini (cocktail) and its sources.  So your premise is false.  Dicklyon (talk) 00:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Move to Old fashioned and move the dab page to Old fashioned (disambiguation). This article is the primary topic by miles wrt usage (pageviews). In the last 20 days, it got 50,000 views. The next-highest full title match is Old Fashioned (film) at 760 (or, if we're being generous, Old-fashioned doughnut at 1,775). The dictionary definition of the term does not really come in to play, per WP:NOTDICT. As a second choice, I would also support the proposed move to lowercase, because I do agree with Dicklyon's interpretation of MOS:CAPS/WP:NCCAPS in this scenario. The cocktail is not consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of RS, so we should not capitalize it in running text or in the title. Colin M (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Old fashioned glass" name
In this article, we have

"It is traditionally served with ice in an old fashioned glass (also known as a rocks glass), which predated the cocktail."

while in Old fashioned glass, we have

"It is also normally used to serve certain cocktails, such as the old fashioned, from which it receives its name.[citation needed]"

Clearly, something is wrong. I don't know which is right, so I will remove both, and I'll add a section to the latter article's talk page linking to this section. Blippy1998 (talk) 06:20, 23 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't see that as a contradiction. The glass came first, but it wasn't called an old fashioned glass until after the cocktail. GA-RT-22 (talk) 14:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC)