Talk:Oldest people/Archive 9

Oldest Man in the World Today is from Nigeria - Ozo Ezegwuja Nwaeze, over 140 years old
Ozo Ezegwuja Nwaeze of Owerre Ugwu Edem-Ani in Edem, Nsukka is over 140 years old. He surpasses in age all persons listed in this article, and needs to be added to the list.

This article falls short because other parts of the world besides Europe, Asia and South Africa need to be researched and documented.

http://www.sunnewsonline.com/webpages/news/national/2006/oct/25/national-25-10-2006-04.htm

jlh629 15:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This kind of research is quite new. It didn't start until the 1870's, and Guinness didn't start until 1955. Just eight years ago, in 1999, we had less than 100 validated supercentenarian cases. Today we have over 1,000. So, work is expanding rapidly but it needs to be realized that this type of story is simply fantasy fiction; this man is exaggerating his age because a mystical age makes him seem more powerful/more important...and given that his occupation is being a charlatan (selling people 'herbal treatments'), it makes sense for him to claim to be '140' instead of '80'.

Ryoung122 13:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Jlh629, please support your statement about "and needs to be added to the list." I'm trying to follow your logic.

Comment: I suppose it's nice to be gullible and believe everything you read. Neal 20:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC).

I suppose he also will buy the 'magic herbs' this 'wizard' is selling?


 * Note the obvious signs of the longevity myth:


 * 'testimony' (testimonial fallacy, religious significance)


 * 'even today' (an appeal to the past, because as modern record-keeping and education advance, stories like this become rarer)


 * '140' (a rounded age...this is called 'age heaping')


 * a male (though most true supercentenarians are female, the oldest age claims are disproportionately male, suggesting a patriarchal reason)


 * herbal medicine (appeal to non-scientific healing, 'witchcraft' or medicine-man approach)


 * five wives (polygamy) and scores of children (again, patriarchal)


 * 'God' (use of religion)


 * oral tradition, not written record (age based on 'festivals')


 * no accurate birthdate


 * money a motivating factor ('I charge them handsomeley to sustain myself')

Ok, I identified ten 'red flags' that suggest that this is not just a false longevity claim, but even more so, a longevity myth...that is, based on primarily mythological reasons. Ryoung122 13:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Why not simply note for he benefit of Jlh629 (or is that Mr. 629?) that this page is for verified and documented claims for longevity and while the person in question may ("may" in 300-point letters) be the age he claims, sadly, he seems to lack the corroborating documentation. And wish him to prosper in his already (claimed) long life. Canada Jack 15:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

And I thought that the 150 year olds came from South Central Asia... I'm all for politeness on talk pages, but this one really deserved a scathing rebuke. I could have debunked it, but I wasn't touching it since I knew Robert would do it better. I don't want to suggest that we're a gerontological vanguard, but it's funny that these people think we're as clueless as they actually are. 120 we can talk about. 140 - don't make me laugh. Captain celery 20:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Giichi Okumura of Japan (1896-2007)
Giichi Okumura of Japan has died. He was Japan's second oldest man and the seventh oldest man in the world. He died on 13th October, aged 110 years, 360 days so unfortunately didn't quite make it to 111. I've updated the Top 10 Oldest Men in the World list to reflect this, adding Louis de Cazenave of France as number 10. XZT 11:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

So the reams of 'Top 10 or 110+' discussion I started were pointless. Well no, actually, because if Harvey Hite gets to 110 on November 15th then the debate becomes relevant again. The Okumura article I created was too late, but then it was deleted anyway, and the discussion was still useful regarding Jiroemon Kimura. Captain celery 20:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ronnie Fairbanks
he was discussed quite a while ago and just wondered what happened to him as i didn't see anything else about him afterwards. Webbmyster 12:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

No update on the GRG site since August 9, 2007, that I know. Neal 16:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC).

Webbmyster, perhaps this is the discussion you refer to. After Elias Wen died I added Aarne Arvonen and queried if there was someone older. Fairbanks was suggested, but Robert said the last update was around his 109th. Nothing about a 110th or death. Captain celery 20:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Wrong: he made it to 110 (his alleged age) => just read http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/8304, http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/8308, http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/8320 and http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worlds_Oldest_People/message/8321

Extremely sexy 00:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

thats one im on about! Webbmyster 16:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * But ce could be a fraud as well. Extremely sexy 11:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Aarne Arvonen oldest man in Finland ever
As of November 19, 2007, Aarne Arvonen of Finland is 110 years and 107 days old. So he surpassed Andrei Kuznetsoff (1873 - 1984), who died at age 110 years and 106 days. Andrei Kuznetsoff was the oldest verified man in the history of Finland. So Mr Arvonen took this position on November 19, 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salutmoncon (talk • contribs)


 * Looks like this page became a news letter. Neal (talk) 04:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC).

What does that mean? Captain celery (talk) 06:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the undisclosed culprit's point was everything he said. In other words, the current oldest man in Finland surpassed the previous oldest man ever in Finland. Just a news update. I don't find that much necessary in Wikipedia. Neal (talk) 18:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC).

If Edna Parker lives another 8 years then that will be a topic for discussion. I see your point though. It's only Finland. But I was vaguely interested nonetheless. Captain celery (talk) 07:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Me too, man. Extremely sexy (talk) 11:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Changed dates
I notice that Izumi is now listed as being born in July, not June as I thought. Someone has changed a number of dates here, have these changes been vetted by the various editors here who are more expert on the subject than myself? Canada Jack (talk) 17:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Looks like vandalism, yet I haven't found which edit it was. Shigechiyo Izumi is still born on June 29 in his own Wikipedia article. I guess this was 1 unnoticed vandalism done some time ago. Neal (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC).


 * See Talk:List of the oldest people. People are playing around with original research concepts, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. I am fixing up the changes now. Cheers, CP 20:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify here, as I checked Canadian Paul's (no relation) link. The changes were done owing to adjustments several editors made to various dates in regards to the Gregorian Calender being 12 or 13 days off of the Julian calendar. For example, since Japan adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1873 and Izumi was born in 1865, the ASSUMPTION by these editors was that Guinness etc had not taken this into account, that his June 29 birthdate was according to the Julian calendar and thus should "really" be July 11 by the Gregorian calendar. But this effort has been identified as original research and has been reverted, not least because it has not been established that Guinness in fact did not take this into account. Canada Jack 16:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Who is Christine Murray?
I note that the 24th person on the list of those who exceeded 115 years of age is one Christine Murray. I don't recall seeing this before, and it would seem this person died earlier this year. Is this some vandalism, or is this a bona fide claim? Canada Jack (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Well whoever made the edit couldn't work out that if she was born on February 13th 1892, and lived for 115 years and 1 day, that she must have died on February 14th 2007. They also didn't bother to remove Emma Tillman from 'oldest living people' and update Yone Minagawa accordingly. And yet we have to justify reverting this stuff. Unbelievable. 80.2.16.73 (talk) 03:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Vandalism. Neal (talk) 04:10, 16 December 2007 (UTC).

Mary Davis
A women from Mt. Eden in The Bronx named Mary Davis is 113 years old. New York 1 or NY1 news has been showing her since she was 99. Can someone possibly include her in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.246.12 (talk) 04:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

No date of birth? Aww, no chance. Neal (talk) 14:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC).

Hryhoriy Nestor
Recently, a Ukrainian man named Hryhoriy Nestor died at the age of 116.

The article can be found on BBC.

Could someone add him to the lists?

Thanks --- AM 0 88 (talk) 21:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * His age has never been verified. See Longevity claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DerbyCountyinNZ (talk • contribs) 00:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure someone could add him to the lists. They just need a motive to. Neal (talk) 14:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC).

Mary Marques
Mary Marques was born in Portugal but lives in USA... shouldn't she be added to the Immigrant's list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.253.155 (talk) 19:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but the table does not list the 2nd or 3rd oldest per country title holder. The current Portugal record is currently 114 years 274 days, so a couple more years. Neal (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC).

Leila backman Shull has died
i got word the she died either the 22nd or the 23rd at 113y 67+d. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.5.229 (talk) 19:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes: I'm afraid she did last Sunday. Extremely sexy (talk) 00:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Dying either the 22nd or 23rd is of little help to us. And if she died in either the 22nd or 23rd, she couldn't have "only" died, at 113 years 67 days, now could she? Anyways, the GRG site said she died the 22nd, if that's wrong, please report it to them. 71.137.5.229: you're probably not going to respond, but do you think it is worth keeping your entry section in Wikipedia forever? Or do you think that once the edit you requested has been made, or if you fixed it yourself, that this entry needs to exist in the talk page still? And most importantly, do you think the oldest people talk page discussion is a permanent newspaper for supercentenarian deaths? Heck, you might not even look back, that this section could easily be removd by someone and you would never know, right? Neal (talk) 19:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC).

oldest living people
why are the people in oldest living people section dead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.34.251 (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Did someone revert to the title? Or has it always been like that. Neal (talk) 18:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC).

CORRECT PLEASE


 * María Díaz Cortés, born in Granada, Spain 1/4/1892 is the oldest woman in the world with 116 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.170.21 (talk) 20:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * ? Are you saying your above text is correct? Or it needs to be corrected? Neal (talk) 17:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC).

María Díaz Cortés
Her case seems to be confirmed by spanish identity documentation. She completed 116y yesterday. So she is the oldest person in the world since the death of Mr Emiliano Mercado del Toro. 213.63.80.134 (talk) 00:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Only cases confirmed by Guinness go here. This is strictly listed in the criteria for inclusion. Cheers, CP 01:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And aside from Guinness, the GRG has a Spanish correspondent, Miguel Quesada. He did not approve of her case. Neal (talk) 15:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC).

Claims
Why aren't cases like that of Shigechiyo Izumi considered longevity claims? 138.217.145.45 (talk) 22:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

He is considered to be longevity claims, and validated. If your question was why isn't he in longevity claims, quite simply because he is already in this article. I note that longevity claims does not include people in this article. Neal (talk) 01:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC).


 * I think the rule of thumb here is if the person is recognized by Guinness as being validated, that person appears here. While there is some question as to Izumi's claims and the claims of several others, Guinness it would seem generally accepts those who have strong documentation such as a birth record, census records which corroborate the birth records and other documentation, such as marriage records, which fixes the age of a person at a time and place. This would usually include the celebration of a 100th birthday, as such a celebration is almost invariably recorded in some fashion. As I know from personal genealogical research, errors in documentation frequently occur, and people often mistate their own age or date of birth. Which is why a contemporary birth record is a crucial piece of evidence, and why a census record, while important, can't by itself establish proof of a person's age. But with cases such as Izumi's and several others, despite the existence of these pieces of evidence, other evidence suggests the possibility that the individual in fact did not reach the claimed age. In those cases, the questions are noted. I think that Neal would agree with this: in the end, it may be nearly impossible to know for certain in some cases. But the existence of doubt does not mean the person should be cut from this list, as long as the case has strong documentary backing. Canada Jack (talk) 17:33, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And on the individual level, when Guinness accepts a case, 1 has to debunk their source. Which was not the case with Shigechiyo Izumi. In this particular case, someone seemingly found someone with the same first and last name born 15 years later. So this causes some confusion regarding possibilities. And apparently, there are a lot of cases where cases have successfully been debunked. Neal (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC).

Virginia Call
The intro mentions that Virginia Call registered to vote on 1/4/08, her 114th birthday. Why, then, isn't she listed among the ten oldest living people? Since it was reported by a reputable news organization, and since she was registering to vote (with the associated record-keeping and paperwork), one would surmise that her age is verifiable, putting her in the third position on the current Hit Parade.--HughGRex (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * She has not yet been verified by a reputable international organisation. See List of living supercentenarians. DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 02:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If the news organization researched into her age, that would be something else. But if all they did is report it, well, then, that isn't anything particularly special. Neal (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC).

Mariam Amash, currently alive at 120?
Patience, Martin. 2008-02-15. World's 'oldest' person in Israel. BBC.

410 children...great-great-grandchildren! -- Jeandré, 2008-02-17t09:16z


 * Read paragraph 4 (beginning with the word "According") of the newspaper article. Paragraph 5 may be useful to read too. Neal (talk) 19:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC).

Daniel Guzmán García
Hi, the colombian Daniel Guzmán García may be the 7th on the list "Oldest men currently living (top 10)" because he was born on february 6th of 1897. Thanks

http://www.eltiempo.com/nacion/cali/2008-02-17/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR-3961777.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardo Bello (talk • contribs) 19:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Well then, let's see what the University of Boston has to say. Neal (talk) 19:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC).


 * The person in question can be found on the List of living supercentenarians page in the section "Unverified living supercentenarians" which indicates why he is not to be found on the Oldest people page which concerns itself with validated claims. Canada Jack (talk) 21:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
There has been a lot of it since the start of this year (just two months ago), so I would most strongly recommend a semi-protection of the article. Extremely sexy (talk) 18:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. Enough of them IP addresses making edits. Neal (talk) 20:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC).
 * But no administrator who wants to then? Extremely sexy (talk) 16:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

An average of one or two vandalistic edits per day is not enough to justify semi-protection. Semi-protection was for pages like Brad Renfro, where the last 50 edits were all vandalism or reversion and they all occurred within an hour. It doesn't have to be that extreme, but it certainly has to average out to more than one or two per day. For example, there's been only one vandal edit since March 2, which is not enough to justify it. Cheers, CP 16:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * But before that is was a lot more. Extremely sexy (talk) 16:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Watfa Ghanem
Someone should create an article about Watfa Ghanem, a 128-year old Syrian woman, born in 1880. She has long passed the age of Jeanne Calment, who reached the longest confirmed lifespan at 122. 1 2 3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.42.180.104 (talk) 19:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * At the moment she doesn't even qualify for listing in Longevity claims let alone any list of verified people. DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Jesus Campeche
I was just reading a very old New York Times article (from 1897) about a man who died in Guadalajara, Mexico at the age of 154. The article seems to be credible and I'm surprised Campeche isn't mentioned on this page. Somebody may want to check out the copy of The Times' article: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9505E0D71339E433A2575BC0A9659C94669ED7CF. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.41.82 (talk • contribs)

I'm going to field this one. Firstly, what are your definitons of 'credible' and 'surprised'? This article is for validated centenarians which Mr Campeche clearly isn't. The oldest undisputed person ever at that time, was the Belgian Pierre Darcourt, who lived to be 108, so to outlive him by 46 years seems somewhat outlandish. 78.145.3.12 (talk) 20:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)Captain celery

Walter Harris-World's Oldest Man 1986
I think that Walter Harris was the world's oldest man from February 21, 1986 to June 9, 1986. He is on Mr. Epstein's list. He is month and a half older than Joe Thomas. Walter Harris     	111 	86     March 15,1875     June 9,1986

Reliability of Ages
Not all of these ages are realiable. After all, people do not become a day older at the strike of midnight; they become a day older at the time they were born. So most of these people may actually be a day older/younger than the article says they are. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 11:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the best resolution that can be expected. I don't know exactly at what time I was born and my parents are still alive to ask. The exact date of birth or even death of these people are simply not available, so we'll simply have to accept that limitation. (Yubiquitoyama (talk) 09:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC))
 * Indeed so, man: that's quite impossible. Extremely sexy (talk) 20:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Maria Tomson
This person was added for Estonia and I removed her. She was over 112 years old and died in the 60s and personally I think so old people should have been validated to be allowed to be included here. However, it doesn't concern me much so if anyone has another opinion, please add her again. She is as far as I understand considered oldest in Estonia, so it's hardly a stretch. Kaask who first added her gave me these links about her which I have personally not persued since they are in estonian: ,, , .(Yubiquitoyama (talk) 13:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC))

The first is about the death of man who is considered oldest man of Estonia, the third is about social welfare of Estonian centenarians. But all of them conclude Maria Tomson (1853-1966) as the oldest people of Estonia. And what is the criterion for accepting this fact? Also the notes else but also in Estonian -, , , Kask (talk) 13:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It just struck me that I might have misunderstood the question. As for validation I'm not entirely sure what it entails, but basically there should be at least three documents available that establishes the birth of the person, the death of the person and something that establishes that the person who was born was the one who died. If you from Estonia could provide copies of birth certificate, marriage certificate and possibly some other early document about Maria Tomson, you could possibly get her validated. As I have heard Estonia has had rather good registration, the main problem of validating this particular person could well be that no one has actually been in Estonia to get the proper documents.(Yubiquitoyama (talk) 14:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC))


 * I reverted your change. I think it's sure enough that she was the oldest Estonian known. I don't think validation is needed for Wikipedia.   Andres (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You're absolutely incorrect on that point, we have to respect the sources that are provided to us. The list is for validated people ONLY. Unvalidated claims can go to Longevity claims. I do admit, however, that we need to make this page more clear in that we only accept validated cases... perhaps this will necessitate a change in the title of the article, like with List of the verified oldest people, but in any case the base assumption should be made more clear. If someone could make these changes, it would be much appreciated and, moreover, would save a lot of hassle. Cheers, CP 01:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem for me is: you assume that the claim is not validated if anyone outside Estonia has not seen the proper documents, and in Estonia people are that stupid that they believe everything without documents. Andres (talk) 07:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not assume anything. I do not work for an international body of gerontology. Perhaps I should have made it more clear that I meant that the criteria on this page (like all others) needs to be verified by an international body of gereontology because all countries (Canada, United States included) will "validate" their own claims for national reasons whether or not they actually hold up to (relatively) more objective scrutiny. But that is not excuse for you to make personal attacks. Remember that we have strict policies on civility and no personal attacks and I will kindly ask that you abide by them. Cheers, CP 14:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but I was not meaning to make any personal attack and I don't see why you think so. I just tried to explain what I was meaning. Is assume an offending word? I am not a native English speaker, so I apologize if this is the case. Isn't assumption in your sentence and assume words of the same roots? And I didn't mean by you not you personally but the English Wikipedia. And I feel like suffering from a personal attack because of these reproaches.


 * Any information in Wikipedia is to be validated. If you mean validation by any specific body then make it clear in the text of the article. Andres (talk) 15:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it is validated enough that according to the best information available in Estonia Maria Tomson was the oldest person known in Estonia. I think this the normal level of validation for Wikipedia. If some stricter criterion is meant then there should a special clause. Andres (talk) 15:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * While there does seem to be an inconsistency in what has been required before a name is added here this should mean that previously unreferenced cases be removed rather than more be added. For a supercentenarian case such as this a reference of some sort should be included if possible as I am fairly certain any of the others listed here would be on the GRG list.DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 23:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I created an article about Maria Tomson. There I added a reference. When I get more information and references about her I will add them. I think she should be mentioned in some review article in this Wikipedia if not here. Andres (talk) 05:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As there you have a reference in her page I think it would be ok to add her here under national longevity holders. As, if verified, she would also have been the world's oldest person for some time I suspect there would be some interest from the GRG and hopefully they will be able to verify this in due course.DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 22:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Not sure is that is so - don't the national record holders require verification as well? But your other note is certainly pertinent - if Maria Tomson indeed lived the span claimed, she would have been the world's oldest person from 17 February 1963 to her death on 26 April 1966, and one of the longest record-holders since 1955 (fourth-longest, if I am not mistaken). So I don't think we should insert her on this page willy-nilly. Canada Jack (talk) 15:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * What I meant is that there cannot be a need to be shown the documents to the Wikipedia. Who is to be shown them? Andres (talk) 07:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The gerontology research group, GRG can be reached from their webpage at www.grg.org. I am pretty certain they would be quite happy to receive documents which make validation of Maria Tomson possible. It has nothing to do with Estonians being stupid. Sweden has the oldest and arguably most respected statistics over their citizens in the world, and not even their claims are accepted at face value (see Hulda Karlsson who is awaiting verification several months after her 110th birthday since all documents have not been retrieved yet). The fact that Estonia has good registration makes it possible to believe in a validation of Maria Tomson, but the fact remains that it is a quite old case and that birth data are not always available to assure such a case is actually correct. If the proper documents are found, she will certainly be validated. (Yubiquitoyama (talk) 08:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC))


 * Why aren't biblical people in this. If you dispute their age then you are a heathen, God will judge you and you shall burn. God gives me the power to judge you through his words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.124.122 (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)