Talk:Oldham/Archive 2

Untitled

 * /Archive 1: August 2004 to October 2007

Oldham Athletic F.C.
"The most notable and successful sports team in Oldham"... notable, maybe, but successful surely goes to numerous times Championship winners, Challenge Cup winners Oldham Roughyeds?

DShamen 15:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think "successful" is probably a term to avoid, per WP:PEACOCK. Though the section could do with a bit of an overhall and some high quality citation. -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A few things ...

 * I can't see the logic of including the founding of Yates Wine Lodge in the Invention and discovery section.
 * Why are all the mill names given in quotes, Like "Elks" mill? It makes it look as if that wasn't their real name. Was it called Elks Mill?

--Malleus Fatuarum 19:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure where else to put the Yates Wine Lodge claim, any suggestions?... perhaps the removal of the sub-heading would help? The name of the mill was Elk. The quotation marks could/should probably be removed! -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

What about putting it in the Economy section? Speaking of which, I found the caption to the rather impressive stained glass roof a bit confusing: ''"The Spindles", one of Oldham's shopping centres, houses one of Europe's largest stained glass roofs. Which, created by local artist Brian Clarke ...''' Is "Which" the name of the artwork? Perhaps I'm just being dense, because I also still don't understand these mill names. Was the mill just called Elk, and so should be called something like Elk's mill, or was it called Elk Mill?

Yours confusedly, --Malleus Fatuarum 21:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, it's probably definately me! I've a banging headache tonight and got clarity of mind! - way too much wiki during the last fortnight for me I think!!.... Each mill in Oldham (and beyond as I understood) had a (nick)name, so examples are 'Cape', 'Devon', 'Royd', 'Anchor', 'Arrow' 'Dawn', 'Briar' and, of course 'Elk'. Why this system? I've no idea - but the names were always in white brick at the top of the mill's water-tower or chimney. The mill in question was just 'Elk'. I'm not sure if the quotation marks are needed - certainly Shaw and Crompton doesn't use them.


 * The rotunda stained glass windows, as far as verifiability goes, do not seem to have names. The use of "Which" is just my incredibly poor use of grammar!... oh, and I think your suggestion of the economy merge is a good one! -- Jza84 · (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * So probably Elk mill is the best way to talk about the mills. If you've got no objection I'll make that change. --Malleus Fatuarum 22:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the major rock band Barclay James Harvest also from Oldham? I think they do count as 'notable'. Greets, RandyAndy 88.72.254.3 (talk) 12:03, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Greetings, and thanks for the suggestion. They are probably worth adding to the List of people from Oldham, provided a reference can be found. :) --Jza84 | Talk  13:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Circumbound
"Oldham is circumbound by several smaller settlements ..."

The word "circumbound" has troubled me ever since I first saw it in the lead, not least because it doesn't appear in my edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary, and so I'm not at all sure what it means. Putting "circum" and "bound" together like that would tend to suggest to me that Oldham was in some way constrained in its growth by the surrounding settlements, in the way that Manchester is, although I've never seen anyone say that Manchester is circumbound by Salford, Trafford ...

I did a Google search for "circumbound", and it came up with 7 hits, 6 of them apparently deriving from this Oldham article. All of which leads me to believe that "circumbound" isn't a real word. Well, not yet, anyway. --Malleus Fatuarum 01:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC):)


 * Hmmmm, it seems you're right! I have it in one of these Oldham local history books, but it is one of the older ones, and thus probably an archaic term. Any suggestions for an alternative? Thanks for pointing this out, -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

What about something simple, like "surrounded by"? As William Safire apparently said, "Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do." :) --Malleus Fatuarum 03:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * ✅, -- Jza84 · (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Pre-empting FAC objections
I predict that the Communal facilities subsection of Culture will get slated unless we can fix it PDQ.


 * "The Lyceum is a Grade II listed building opened in 1856 at a cost of £6,500 as a "mutual improvement" centre for the working men of Oldham. Superseding an earlier building which opened under the same terms in 1839, available to its members were a library, a newsroom and a series of lectures on geology, geography and education, microscope and chemistry, female education and botany."

Awkward passive voice, and how can a building be "superseded"? What were these "same terms"? And presumably it wasn't the opening that cost £6,500.

"Music had always existed at the Lyceum ...". Always? What does "music existing" mean"?

FA seems always to be a bit of a struggle, but no point in making it harder than it needs to be. --Malleus Fatuarum 03:47, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You raise totally valid points. Much of this part of the article is from a rather wordy book (A Centenary History of Oldham). I seems this section needs some better paraphrasing and copy-editting - "Music had always existed at the Lyceum" probably reading as "music has been studied and practiced at the Lyceum since its opening."? "Superseding" refering (I think - it's not totally clear in the book) that an earlier Lyceum existed with identical terms of use, but was knocked down to make way for a larger building. -- Jza84 · (talk) 15:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Spoken version added
I have added a spoken version of this article; see the link above. Hassocks5489 (talk) 01:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

V1 attack on Christmas eve 24 December 1944 - question of number of victims
There is missing the bombing of Oldham of 1944: Oldham was hit by a V1 on Abbey Hills Road, where a V1 landed on a row of cottages. The number of victims does not seem to be safe:

killing 27 people and seriously injuring 49, says a BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/4122627.stm

but many other websites are telling about 37 killed, e.g. http://jp29.org/2ar.htm

Perhaps somebody can find out the truth?

--Michael Palomino (talk) 14:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably a good addition for the History of Oldham article. Best bet would be to give a range of numbers, so 27 to 37 fatalities. --Jza84 | Talk  19:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Edward Potts (1839–1909)
I'd like to add some information on Edward Potts' contribution to architecture in the town. According to the Oxford DNB he designed The Bell mill (1904), The Iris mill (1907), the infirmary (1870), the town hall extension (1879–80), as well as banks, board schools, and chapels. As its an FA, I thought I'd ask before doing so. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds interesting. I've heard the name, but do not know much beyond that! There's also a History of Oldham if you think some (expanded?) stuff can go there too? Go for it - I trust your judgement! --Jza84 | Talk  00:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Compass
Hello, I've put the geocompass on the Oldham page, to see if it fits well with the article and what other users think. I think it's good, and it's becoming a bit of a standard in geographic articles. Can we leave it for now and see what the general view is? Thanks. 86.27.78.158 (talk) 16:40, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Disagree. I think it was useful until an article reaches GA, then it should be dropped. Here it is out of place,it should be in section 3. It doesn't compare like with like- Moorside with Manchester, Then Chadderton is within Oldham. Apart from that I find the graphic a bit twee. --ClemRutter (talk) 22:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's necessary, Oldham's position in relation to the neighbouring towns is already explained in the geography section. Prose is superior to a compass table as it can include distances. Nev1 (talk) 22:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think they're dreadful. Just MHO.  Mr Stephen (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth I've never liked the compass table either. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:43, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Oldham Limiteds
When researching cotton, the phrase Oldham Limiteds comes up time and again. etc In a nutshell, before the cotton famine, Oldham had been the home to a lot of Room and power mills, providing a pool of entrepreneurs.After the famine, mills were finances by establising a public limited company, taking share capital from local speculators. In Oldham it took off and it explains the rapid growth in the number of mills- the Stott dynasty didn't make money be designing buildings but by buying into the mills they designed. Oldham had its own stock exchange. Shouldn't this be briefly mentioned in the history section? It is sufficiently important to write a page which could then be linked. Any comments.--ClemRutter (talk) 22:55, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds interesting, even worth a page in its own right. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll put it on my todo list. My problem is that I am working right on the edge of my comfort zone and will need support from people who are into economic history. It was pretty lonely building up the articles on Maple Mill, Oldham, Ring spinning and Spinning mule; there seem to be a limited number of people who have any interests in these directions and I know some of my limitations.--ClemRutter (talk) 08:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅. Could someone assist by doing a thorough edit- then writing a link into the Oldham and Chadderton pages. The Chadderton page IMHO gives a very superficial account of the years 1850-1900 relying heavily on one source. ClemRutter (talk) 11:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Binge drinking, nightlife and Tesco
Oldham's nightlife was put under the spotlight this evening in Panorama. This article mentions Oldham's nightlife fleetingly in the Culture section, but could probably do with an expansion based on this,this, and this type of thing.

I also heard that a revamped Tesco store in Oldham is the corporation's flagship store, its largest, and the blueprint for all its future stores in the UK - but this needs a reference of course. --Jza84 | Talk  20:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Population problems
According to http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=790039&c=Oldham&d=20&e=16&g=352196&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1249859994460&enc=1&dsFamilyId=141 Oldham has 165,509 persons over 16; which is much more than listed on the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.211.61 (talk) 20:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comment. That information is for the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham, rather than the town which is covered by this article. Nev1 (talk) 20:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Area?
I'm a bit confused by the area used in this article. It says that the area is 25.9 sq miles (67 sq km), and uses a 1911 book to source this. However, County Borough of Oldham says that the area before it was abolished was 25.9 sq km, with the area in 1911 being 19.2 sq km. The geography section says that the length of the place is about 6.4km, so for it to have the area stated, it's width would have to be about 10km. Looking at the map there this clearly can't be right! I presume this is a simple error of units, but wanted to make sure before I changed anything. Quantpole (talk) 12:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've looked into it slightly more - the area stated by the ONS on table KS01 (ref D90221) is 17.9 sq km giving a density of 5785/sq km. This seems much more realistic. Unfortunately it is different to the old county borough area. I can't find on the ONS site any maps which detail the areas. Does anyone know what the existing map is based on? Quantpole (talk) 12:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, I've changed the area to that by the ONS, as otherwise the population density and so on would be incorrect. Quantpole (talk) 12:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Owdham?
I understand that the local version of Oldham is actually Owdham, or even Owdum, and wondered why this does not currently appear, as such, in this article? I see "Owdham Roughyed" does feature, and in the caption to the coat of arms for the former County Borough of Oldham council there is mention of "Owdham". A few years ago our neighbours happened to be Oldham folk, and it was from them that I first heard the form "Owdum". It cropped up in conversation after my own use of "Brummagem" as an alternative for Birmingham, and there seemed to be a parallel in its use; i.e. in as much as it did not appear to have currency much beyond the town and the immediate surrounding area, in the same way that the use of Brummagem for Birmingham is largely confined to its citizens and those of the neighbouring Black Country towns. The variant of Brum (derived from Brummagem) is, of course, more widely known, and both Brum and Brummagem are given as 'nicknames' in the Infobox for Birmingham's Wikipedia entry. I was therefore wondering if "Owdham" should not be similarly included in Oldham's Infobox? Maybe a note on the local pronunciation of the name could also be included under the Toponymy section? Does anybody from that neck-of-the-woods have any thoughts on this at all? (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 18:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC))

"Clawd"

 * "Glodwick contains the element clawd which means "ditch" in Modern Welsh."

I can't access the source, but clawd isn't a word I know; clawdd means dyke, hedge, embankment etc (Clawdd Offa -> Offa's Dyke) and is probably what the source meant (if it was talking about modern Welsh. It could possibly be different in Old Welsh; I'm not an expert on that.) The modern Welsh for ditch is ffos. Gareth (talk) 04:28, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * From the 1949 book: "The name Glodwick perhaps contains an old Celtic word Clod, in modern Welsh Clawd ("a ditch "), which would be the fosse or dike constructed by the Romans to drain the route of their paved road..." I can't say if the original writer was an accurate linguist or not. Urselius (talk) 10:51, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I did some more digging. According to Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the equivalent of the OED) (pp 1118-9, NB hefty PDF file) it originally meant the soil thrown up in digging a pit or trench (and hence "dyke"), but by extension clawdd could refer to the ditch itself (quote: "ditch, gutter, trench; pit, quarry, mine; moat, fosse"). Which makes sense since cloddio is also the verb "to dig". But "clawd" is then certainly a misspelling of "clawdd". Gareth (talk) 12:49, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * So given the 1949 quote above, may I suggest replacing the sentence in question by "..and Glodwick may be related to the modern Welsh clawdd, meaning dyke or ditch." I would do it myself but it would be best if I waited until after it left the front page. Gareth (talk) 13:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, that would be fine. I originally just wanted to point out the Celtic-derived place-names still existing in the area. Werneth, is a very rare thing in England, outside Cornwall, in being derived from a Celtic personal name, rather than term for a topographical feature. Urselius (talk) 15:34, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Education section
in the table consisting of the names of schools in Oldham, the 'index.cfm' should be removed from the URL for The Blue Coat School. Presently, clicking that link returns a 'Not found' response from server. Offeiriad (talk)Offeiriad

Does this violate WP:NOTLINK having the bare URLs for the colleges? How did that pass through the FA criteria?  Lugnuts  And the horse 12:34, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think it does, although neither do I think the links are entirely necessary in this case, and nothing would be lost by removing them. My understanding is that the MoS requirement is only that external links should not appear in the text of an article. Malleus Fatuorum 17:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally I can't see the point of these public web links when all bar one school/ college has its own article where the URLs are place quite prominently, thus It seems like unnecessary clutter to me. -- wintonian talk  19:01, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither can I. Shall we remove them? Malleus Fatuorum 20:14, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I like them, and as the only alternative is a bigger blank space to the right of the table, they may as well stay. Peteb16 (talk) 20:34, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The better alternative is to centre the table, which I propose to do now. Malleus Fatuorum 20:59, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a fair point about the resulting blank space, if however anyone can think of something useful to fill it with then I would be in favour of going own that route. -- wintonian talk  21:06, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok centring the table turned out better than I expected, so that looks fine to me. -- wintonian talk  21:17, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * How about coordinates? Peteb16 (talk) 21:08, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It did cross my mind though it still seems a little pointless, on the other hand it using coordinates would make it look tidier than bare URLs -- wintonian talk  21:17, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've removed the web site link column and centred the table. Anyone who wants to know coordinates can very easily click on the wikilink to the school they're interested in. Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Looking again in December:
 * caption:The Blue Coat School is one of Oldham's oldest schools, dating back to 1834.:- which are the others?
 * Almost every part of Oldham is served by a school of some kind, some with religious affiliations.:- Which part is flouting the duty in the 1944 Act?
 * According to the Office for Standards in Education, schools within the town perform at mixed levels:- when? Cite needed?
 * Oldham Hulme grammar schools,:- redlink citation refers to a different school. which dates from 1895,
 * is consistently Oldham's top performing secondary school for girls school and boys school 11- to 16-year-olds, and has a sixth form college of further education for 16- to 18-year-olds on the same site. :- Grammar, wild political propaganda, incorrect linking.


 * Oldham produced someone who is considered to be one of the greatest benefactors of education for the nation, Hugh Oldham, who in 1504 was appointed as Bishop of Exeter, and later went on to found what is now Manchester Grammar School. :- apart from the ref to p154 being on p155, the quote removed a qualifying probably. The date is at odds with the linked articles. The Oldham family made their money in Ancoats- no proof given that the lad even visited Oldham. Speculation.

Shall I zap the two paragraphs?

Crime section
In the English indices of deprivation 2010 report published by the Department for Communities and Local Government, the top 3 areas worst for crime in England were in Oldham The 9th worst area for crime also was an area of Oldham. I understand this may ruin the appeal of the Oldham article should this information be added to the main article but it could be useful. Jaywick's Wikipedia page states that it or a part of it was the overall most deprived place in England, taken from the same report. Undefined 23:01, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Oldham boundary
According to this Hollingwood is in Oldham. J3Mrs (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071010061947/http://www.galleryoldham.org.uk/cultural-quarter.htm to http://www.galleryoldham.org.uk/cultural-quarter.htm

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Oldham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080916142841/http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/13636/the-crumbling-shame-of-our-town-hall to http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/13636/the-crumbling-shame-of-our-town-hall
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110724003340/http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/31012/town-hall-on-atrisk-list to http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/31012/town-hall-on-atrisk-list
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120703053333/http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/70218/town-hall-revamp-revealed to http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/70218/town-hall-revamp-revealed
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120625075151/http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/69905/picture-this-plan-for-old-town-hall to http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news-headlines/69905/picture-this-plan-for-old-town-hall

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External links modified
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I have just modified one external link on Oldham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071114211925/http://www.go2work.net/demosite/parkcakes.htm to http://www.go2work.net/demosite/parkcakes.htm

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Oldham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071114225656/http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadPage.do?pageId=1003&tc=1192663037109&a=7&b=5941622&c=coldhurst&d=14&e=16&g=352331&i=1001x1003x1004x1011&m=0&r=1&s=1192663037109&enc=1 to http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadPage.do?pageId=1003&tc=1192663037109&a=7&b=5941622&c=coldhurst&d=14&e=16&g=352331&i=1001x1003x1004x1011&m=0&r=1&s=1192663037109&enc=1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071114225709/http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadPage.do?pageId=1003&tc=1192663112296&a=7&b=5941618&c=hollinwood&d=14&e=16&g=352470&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1192663112296&enc=1 to http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadPage.do?pageId=1003&tc=1192663112296&a=7&b=5941618&c=hollinwood&d=14&e=16&g=352470&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1192663112296&enc=1
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071114225720/http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadPage.do?pageId=1003&tc=1192663247234&a=7&b=5941611&c=St.+Marys&d=14&e=15&g=352729&i=1001x1003x1004x1011&m=0&r=1&s=1192663247234&enc=1 to http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadPage.do?pageId=1003&tc=1192663247234&a=7&b=5941611&c=St.+Marys&d=14&e=15&g=352729&i=1001x1003x1004x1011&m=0&r=1&s=1192663247234&enc=1
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FA review?
I suspect that this article may have drifted from FA status since 2012. Certainly, there are some dubious and/or unsubtantiated statements and poor style - I have just removed one example that, while I know it to be correct, is unsourced and not even terribly significant. I am also surprised to see no mention of Westhulme Hospital, which I mentioned in the edit summary. Is a review required? FAs often go to pot if the regular maintainer moves on. - Sitush (talk) 23:58, 30 September 2018 (UTC)