Talk:Olduvai Gorge

Prof. Kattwinkel
Wilhelm Kattwinkel was not an entomologist, but a physician, specialized as a neuro-physician. He also heard lectures on paleontology. He went to German-East Africa to research about the sleeping-sickness (trypanomiasis), when he "discovered" the Olduvai fossil site. He is listed in the files of the Ludwig-Maximilians University of Munich until winter term 1934/35 (died January 35) as an extraordinary professor of internal medicine and neurology.

Maybe this could be corrected...

sources: Frank Gries (talk) 09:16, 1 August 2012 (UTC)Frank Gries
 * 1) Glowatzki G: Kattwinkel. In: Neue Deutsche Biographie (New German Biography). Duncker & Humblot, Berlin 1977.  p.  331–332.
 * 2) Maier G: African Dinosaurs Unearthed: The Tendaguru Expeditions. Indiana University Press 2003.
 * 3) Glowatzki G (1979): Wilhelm Kattwinkel, der Entdecker der Oldoway-Schlucht. In: Homo - Zeitschrift für die vergleichende Forschung am Menschen, Band 30, p. 124–125.


 * Changed to neurologist per Maier ref. Vsmith (talk) 11:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * He has been refered to as an entomologist, in particular Louis Leakey, but in fact could be described as a buttefly collector. It was in this role that he discovered the site. He was in the area, as was stated, doing research about the sleeping-sickness. Dger (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

In Germany, Kattwinkel is even seen as an paleontologist now, as his most known academic success finally was the discovering of the fossil site. He heard lectures about paleontology by von Zittel and Ranke, leading paleontologist in Germany at that time. To refer to him as a paleontologist would be to strong in my personal opinion, but could be accepted as had obiously enough knowlegde to excavate and chose scientifically valuable fossils to take to Europe. Frank Gries (talk) 06:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)Frank Gries
 * The story depicting him as chasing butterflys is according to Glowatzki (1979, reference above) based only on Louis Leakey, and it is unknown, why Leakey said this, as he could hardly knew any details about how Kattwinkel found the site. The story is often qouted, especially after an article in the Time (10th March 1961) - in which Kattwinkel even nearly died, when falling into the gorge - even popular in German guide books.

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Oldupai vs Olduvai
May I suggest that the page be renamed to Oldupai Gorge since that is the correct spelling. The correct spelling of the Oldupai Gorge might be a point for dispute. Most people know it as the Olduvai Gorge which is nothing but incorrect. Oldupai is the Maasai name for the sisal plant which is found there and that is why it is called the Oldupai Gorge. Anybody who has been on a Safari in Serengeti would know this since the rangers there make sure to explain the correct name. --Durst 11:10, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Agree with this - it seems a similar case to Bombay/Mumbai. I'll swap the article & redirect (unless there are disagrements here)

I think Olduvai should be retained with a note about Oldupai (incidentally, one is used as the topic heading and the other is used at the start of the very first paragraph. No matter which solution we decide on, we should not use the words interchangeably. --Ed (talk) 17:55, 7 July 2010 (UTC) EdIsenberg 2010-07-07

I believe that Olduvai should be used primarily because of the complete ignorance the vast majority of people interested in the article about the second name. History is full of misspellings, mispronounced words ("Amarillo, TX" is incorrectly pronounced as "am-a-Rill-oh" rather than the correct "am-a-REE-yo", and other situations where what used to be called one thing becomes universally recognized as something else. When Peking, China was changed on maps and globes to Beijing, China, it was to help people pronounce the city's name correctly and keep them from insulting the Chinese by calling their capital city a misspelled Western name. Olduvai & Oldupai does not have nearly the same problem. Language is meant to facilitate communication, not, for the sake of accuracy, confuse everyone. --Ed (talk) 17:55, 7 July 2010 (UTC) EdIsenberg 2010-07-07

We were told at the Gorge this January, 2008, that a German adventurer or missionary or hunter asked the Maasai what the area was called and he HEARD Olduvai (misunderstanding Oldupai). Since that time, "Olduvai" has become a worldwide misnomer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.75.226.200 (talk) 01:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "Most people know it as the Olduvai Gorge". Wikipedia is descriptivist, not prescriptivist. &mdash;Wereon 14:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Skeptic cdn 20:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC) I changed the naming to Oldupai. Apparently the official name of the Gorge changed to that in 2005.

Skeptic cdn 20:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC) I'm not sure how to edit the title of the page - could someone else do that?


 * Reverted back to Olduvai. I see no reference for the change, although it may be so, the site has traditionally been Olduvai and there is no urgent need for article revision. Vsmith 14:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I couldn't find an official site for Oldupai, although here is an article from the closest major city (Arusha) to the Gorge, which states that the name was in fact changed to Oldupai. http://www.arushatimes.co.tz/2005/5/local_news_9.htm

Although there may be no specific need for article revision, the spelling of the name isn't a wholesale change, and is correct. Skeptic cdn 07:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting news article, however, the reporter continued using the Olduvai spelling after reporting the official change. It would seem that we need more than that news story. The name has been stable for quite some time, so I see no need for anything more than a mention of the alternative spelling, as is there currently, with perhaps a reference for the official change when we find one. Vsmith 09:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Would a photo of the sign at the entrance to the site museum labelling it as "Oldupai Gorge" work? LocutusMIT 19:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You have the photo? Maybe put it in the Olduvai Gorge Museum article. Vsmith 23:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Done. LocutusMIT 22:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Having just returned from Tanzania, we strongly endorse the name change to Oldupai Gorge. The rangers and guides in the park made a special point of asking us all to propogate the use of the correct (Oldupai) name. What better place to start this than Wikipedia? Waitefamily (talk) 12:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I doubt whether there is evidence of mammoth consumption in the Olduvai Gorge. It should be elephant I think.

Furthermore, since Neanderthals did not live in Africa the bones in the Masek beds might be said to display archaic characteristics, but I do not think these characteristics should be dubbed "Neanderthal"


 * Relax, not only were you right about the elephant thing, but I have added more information about FLK North and what the site with Elephas recki bones actually consisted of. --Bernalj90 (talk) 04:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Could I request that the line "The latter spelling is not used locally." be replaced, with for example,"Oldupai is the spelling that is used locally." since the existing line requires backtracking and negation, rather than just stating the fact. I have not attempted to directly edit the line since I don't want to step on any toes and do not know if the line is in fact true. Thanks. mbyrne. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.103.18.84 (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Somewhere along the way the sentence concerning the official name "Oldupai Gorge" was removed. I added it back to the article. Dger (talk) 04:12, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

vsmith: why won't you let the name be corrected in the article, despite the inclusion of a of the correct spelling of the gorge that was provided 7 years ago? "Olduvai" should be just a footnote, rather than the dominant name of the article. Robert The Rebuilder (talk) 12:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We aim for consistency and the article name is Olduvai Gorge, which is the commonly known name in English. This is not the Maasai Wikipedia. Vsmith (talk) 15:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * What would be the problem with naming the article correctly and leaving "Olduvai Gorge" as a redirect here? That way people would still find their way to the proper article and be educated at the same time. Cthomas3 (talk) 04:04, 14 May 2016 (UTC)


 * As noted by Asmeret G. Mehari and Kokeli P. Ryano in their chapter “Maasai people and Oldupai (Olduvai) Gorge: Looking for sustainable people-centered approaches and practices,” from Schmidt and Pikirayi’s 2016 edited volume Community Archaeology and Heritage in Africa: Decolonizing Practice, “Olduvai Gorge is a colonial nomenclature, and locally it is known as Oldupai in Maasai language, named after the indigenous wild sisal (sansevieria) plant.” It is high time to remove the colonial nomenclature from Wikepedia. The name Olduvai is not neutral but imparts a claim that privileges the site’s careless misnaming by a German scientist over one hundred years ago over the situated knowledge of the Maasai people who live there. As others have noted, it would be simple enough to correct the error in such a way that those who put in the search term “Olduvai” would be redirected to the article under the name “Oldupai” and learn from the article itself the reason for the redirect. Those searching for “Olduvai” would thus have no trouble finding or accessing the page. This is both the more just and the more accurate thing to do, particularly as the place itself was officially renamed years ago. Leaving the colonial nomenclature up is therefore not a question of accessibility or recognizability, and it is certainly not one of accuracy. Olduvai is an invented term with Maasai roots. It has no meaning in English, in German, or in any other language apart from that derived from a colonial mis-figuration of Maasai knowledge. Ca9876 (talk) 18:58, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * For other examples, please note Bombay:Mumbai and Swaziland:Eswatini. European colonialism ended decades ago, but its remnants persist, especially in the West.--Quisqualis (talk) 20:08, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

This is the Ngorongoro Conservation Area Authority's website, which Oldupai Gorge is under. The name here is Oldupai, and it also mentions for clarity that the site was originally misnamed Olduvai.
 * http://www.ngorongorocrater.org/oldupai.html. This seems clear and a good reason to finally change the name on Wikipedia. Ca9876 (talk) 05:31, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

OH 62 Homo Habilis - D. Johanson 1986 finds
I'm just reading "Lucy's Child" by D. Johanson and James Shreeve, which describes his finding of OH 62 at Olduvai in 1986, see Homo_habilis. This should be added to the article - indeed there is no mention of Johanson and co-workers working at Olduvai at present. I am presently busy with other things but someone might care to add relevant info to the article - also the Johanson WP article is in need of similar additions. Cheers - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 06:42, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

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Olduvai Gorge
A girl 2C0F:EB68:246:DA00:D5CD:3588:5595:4EB7 (talk) 17:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Last sentence in "Hunters or scavengers?"
"The issue of hunting versus gathering at Olduvai Gorge is still a controversial one." Should this read "The issue of hunting versus scavenging at Olduvai Gorge is still a controversial one." ? 24.66.36.209 (talk) 03:33, 16 February 2023 (UTC)