Talk:Oliver De Lancey (American loyalist)

DeLancey
While there are variants in the spelling of the name the most common spelling used in sources relating to New York appears to be DeLancey.

Here's my quick survey of a few books on my shelf:

DeLancey

 * Bonomi, Patricia, A Factious People, Politics and Society in Colonial New York, 'Oliver DeLancey'
 * Ketchum, Richard, Divided Loyalities, How the American Revolution came to New York, 'Oliver DeLancey'
 * Lowenthal, Larry, Marinus Willett, Defender of the Northern Frontier, 'Oliver DeLancey'

De Lancey

 * O'Toole, Fintan, White Savage, William Johnson and the Invention of America, 'Oliver De Lancey'
 * Contemporary London Gazette []


 * The letter reads: "As I would not slip an Opportunity of conveying agreeable News, I take this, by a Merchant Ship, ready to sail for Bristol, with Pleasure to congratulate you on the Success of His Majesty's Arms."


 * Modern rules of capitalization were not used in the 1700's. I would contend he is likely using the original French form of the name: "Oliver de Lancey".

All spellings used
BradMajors (talk) 03:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Smith, Page, A new age now begins, 'Oliver de Lancey', 'Oliver De Lancey', 'Oliver DeLancey' and, 'Oliver Delancey'

As I've pointed out on Talk:Oliver De Lancey Jr., the ODNB draws a clear distinction between the Oliver's (sr and jr, and indeed jr's own son, Oliver) spelling their name with the space, and James DeLancey, given without the space. All contemporary usage for Oilver Jr uses the space. you've mentioned elsewhere the Dictionary of Canadian Biography. That only seems to refer to James, prefering DeLancey, but giving De Lancey as a variant. David Underdown (talk) 15:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia rule WP:NCNT is that the "most common form of the name used in English" should be used. The point of this exercise is by checking sources determining which of the four possible spellings is most common. While you have mentioned ODNB we need more sources.  And I agree if we can find sufficient sources we should distinguish the spelling of the name based upon individuals rather than members of the immediately family. BradMajors (talk) 16:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Much depends on how you count individual issues of the London Gazette, is the gazette as a whole one source, or given that the entries cover a number of years, and consistently spell his name the same way (which is by no means a given, see Frederic John Walker and Malik Umar Hayat Khan for examples where the gazette is not consistent) should each entry be coutned as an individual source? Of course, I haven't managed to find any entries there for Oliver sr (despite his rank of Major General).  Nor do the entries for Oliver jr that have been turned up cover all his promotions.  Unfortunatley the search engine is not 100% reliable due to the OCR process used.  There are definitely no entries under DeLancey though, and it's not case sensitive so de Lancey   should be turned up by the first search.  I'm not 100% clear wehter the sources you refer to here all specifically refer to the Olivers, or the DeLancey family more generally?  David Underdown (talk) 16:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I note that the ODNB lists it's own sources as:
 * B. Murphy, ‘De Lancey, Oliver’, R. G.Thorne, ed., The history of parliament: the House of Commons, 1790–1820, 5 vols.(1986)
 * E. R. Fingerhut, ‘De Lancey, Oliver’, J. A.Garraty and M. C.Carnes, eds., American national biography, 24 vols.(1999)
 * L. S. Lanitz-Schürer, ‘Whig-loyalists: the De Lanceys of New York’, New York Historical Society Quarterly, 56 (1972), 179–98
 * plus various correspondence in the British Library and The National Archives. Obviously, I've not been able to verify these references myself.  David Underdown (talk) 17:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just thought to do an online search on The National Archives' website, for "de lancey" (exact phrase)], about 169 search results for de lancey. For Delancey, only gives about 71 results, though it would appear that a few of the latter do refer to oliver jr, however, note that this search is only of catalogue descriptions, so there is no guarantee that the spelling there matchs the content of the original documents. (The search cover documents held both at the national Archvies and a wide range of other Archives which participate in the Access to Archives scheme).  However, the definitive listing for him in the National Register of Archives is as Lancey, Oliver De (1749-1822) MP General.  David Underdown (talk) 17:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Sir William Johnson Papers: Oliver DeLancey
 * Dictionary of National Biography, 1917 edition (the edition my library has): 'Oliver De Lancey' in the index, but uses 'Oliver de Lancey' in the text.
 * The Oliver DeLancey Papers
 * The New-York Historical Society, New York Public Library, and New York Archives catalogue indexes have entries for both 'Oliver DeLancey' and 'Oliver De Lancey', but there are more entries for 'Oliver De Lancey'.
 * William's tombstone (1815): 'William de Lancey'
 * His father signed his name at least until 1720 as 'Etienne de Lancey'. I would contend it is likely all immediate members of the family considered themselves "de Lancey"'s. But, what is relevant for Wikipedia is the name by which they were most commonly known. (e.g. Bill Clinton, Carrot Top). BradMajors (talk) 18:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Google

 * Google Web Search (which is case independent):
 * "Oliver De Lancey" 3,780 pages
 * "Oliver DeLancey" 2,890 pages
 * Google Book Search (which is case independent):
 * "Oliver De Lancey" 627 books
 * "Oliver DeLancey" 627 books
 * BradMajors (talk) 03:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * BradMajors (talk) 03:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion
I am taking down the article title dispute template. While there are variants in the spellings of all members of the DeLancey family it appears "Oliver De Lancey" is the most popular as an index term. It is still undetermined whether "Oliver De Lancey" or "Oliver de Lancey" should be used in the text. BradMajors (talk) 03:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation
If Jr. and Sr. are used commonly in reliable sources then that is what should be used here. If some other disambiguation such as "the elder" is frequently used in reliable sources then we should rename these articles Oliver De Lancey, the elder or whatever. But if that is a disambiguation used here an not often used in reliable sources, I suggest we move the pages to Oliver De Lancey (senior) to make it clear it is a Wikipedia dab extension. -- PBS (talk) 01:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

If neither Senior or Elder are commonly used another solution would be to follow the lead of Henry Clinton (American War of Independence) and Henry Clinton (Napoleonic Wars) and name the disambiguation after what else is likely to be used in a search.


 * The DNB uses starts the article on Jr. as "De Lancey, Oliver, the elder (1749–1822), general, was the elder son of General Oliver de Lancey, American loyalist during the war of independence (whose daughter Susannah married General Sir William Draper, K.B.),"
 * The ONDB starts the article on Jr. as "Lancey, Oliver De (c.1749–1822), army officer and politician in America, was born in New York, the son of General Oliver De Lancey (1718–1785), an army officer who fought against the revolutionaries during the American War of Independence"

The Reason the DNB calls Jr. "the elder" is because his son is also notable:
 * DNB "De Lancey, Oliver, the younger (1803–1837), Christinist officer, was the only son of General Oliver De Lancey [q.v.], barrack-master-general from 1792 to 1804, and was born in Guernsey in 1803."
 * ONDB "Lancey, Oliver De (1803–1837), army officer, was born in Guernsey, the only son of General Oliver De Lancey (c.1749–1822), barrack-master-general from 1794 to 1804."

Neither volume includes the the man currently called Oliver_De_Lancey, Sr. or "Oliver de Lancey, (American loyalist)". -- PBS (talk) 03:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The dab page Oliver DeLancey now says of the three generations:

Oliver DeLancey (also known as Oliver DeLancey and Oliver de Lancey) may refer to:
 * Oliver De Lancey (American loyalist) (1718–1785), a merchant, a New York Loyalist politician and Major-general during the American War of Independence
 * Oliver De Lancey (British Army general) (1749–1822) British Army officer who took part in the American War of Independence and the French Revolutionary Wars
 * Oliver De Lancey (British Army and Spanish Legion officer) (1803–1837), a British Army officer who volunteered for the Spanish Legion and died fighting in Spain during the First Carlist War.

-- PBS (talk) 11:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)