Talk:Oliver Twist/Archive 1

Oliver Twist's year of birth
In the Oliver Twist topic, which summarizes the novel by Dickens, the article sites Oliver's birth year as 1797. That would make the main part of the story, after his birth, take place in the year 1806. In fact the whole of the story, from when Oliver is 9 to when he's 12, take place before 1810.

The story is about Dicken's opinion of the Poor Laws, which were implimented in 1834. The book was published around 1838, when the Poor Laws were in full swing. How could Oliver be born and come to the age of nine years 25 years before the subject of the Poor Laws, which is what the book is about?

I'm thinking that whoever wrote this article has the fact of Oliver's birth year wrong. Otherwise, I'm willing to be proven wrong, if the writer of the article can site the source. I've searched the text on-line and have found no references such as 1797.

Regards,

Christina


 * I can't find any mention of Oliver's birth year in the article. Maybe it was from a previous version and is now removed. DJ Clayworth 15:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If it weren't, it would be worth removing it now. I haven't read the text in ages, but barring an explicit reference in the text, we shouldn't be offering up 'facts' that can't be proven, and this does qualify as a request for reference.  (I suppose it would be easy to load the text into a word processor from a Gutenberg download and do a "search" for "1797."  It's possible that Dickens set his tale before the poor laws crisis to disguise the fact that he was criticizing a current law, as that was common practice into his own day.)  Geogre 23:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Opinionated Research
I would recommend replacing the discussion section with something more formal, as befits a book of this stature - "Major Scholarship" comes to mind. (signed) ilyaunfois —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.126.155.203 (talk) 04:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Indeed. Actual names of actual critics with actual citations. It reads like a high school study guide or cliff notes. -- Stbalbach 18:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Spelling?
Is it Sikes or Sykes? Article is inconsistent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.179.219.251 (talk • contribs).


 * It is Sikes according to the Norton Critical Edition. -- Stbalbach 14:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Child Protagonists
OT is, I believe, the very first (not 'one of the first') novels in English to center on a child character. Either way, it's one of the more salient aspects of the novel. If I remember my 19th Century English Literature class correctly, Dickens was the first to write a novel using a new notion of childhood already explored, to some extent, by Blake and Wordsworth (e.g. Intimations of Immortality and The Chimney-Sweep). Although Oliver isn't the world's most realistic child character, his simple desires for love and safety and his helplessness before adult tyranny are vividly evoked. OT was only a journey-work, too; Dickens later came to write brilliant descriptions of child life.

The point being...these are issues that probably should find a place somewhere in the lit. crit. section. Anyone?Jgreenbook 01:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone else pointed out some previous works so rather than get into a debate about it and try to be so ridged in saying "the first" just say it was one of the first. It's really a point of trivia if it was the absolute first or not. -- Stbalbach 15:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you mistake me; my point is that the first/early child-protagonist aspect should be explored more thoroughly in the discussion section and, as I don't feel qualified to do so, I was hoping someone else might. However, while we're on the subject, I am astonished that you think this is a trivial point - it was a major literary innovation, and it isn't being rigid to give credit where credit's due.

If Dickens wasn't the first to give a child the starring role in a novel, I'd be interested to know who was so I can read their work myself. The Oxford Reader's Companion to Dickens says something like "Dickens's great innovative stroke was in centering the novel on a child" and according to another source - The Children of Dickens - Oliver was the first child protagonist in an English-language novel (I'm having to quote from memory because I've already returned both books to the library). Cheers,Jgreenbook 22:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Is Fagin an antisemitic caricature ? If not why not ? Johncmullen1960 19:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you want to discuss this right here (does this relate to Child Protagonists?). There is some information under Anti-semitism on the Fagin page: perhaps you'd like to comment on what it says there? Cheers, Doctormatt 20:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Video musical version
In the musical video version if i remember rightly (havent watched for a while so correct me if im wrong) Nancy is not murdered by bill sikes, although bill is killed after he hangs himself (like in charles dikins book. in your article it says how adaptadions make them not know fagin trained him and made him what he was,  i did recongise that but he seemed in the video that bill was in charge, notably that fagin was even scared off him. The video does differ from charles dickins book although they stuck by it welll..hmm Nancy should have been murdered by bill in this, it would have been great to watch. does anyone know if in any other plays or videos whether nancy was murdered by bill? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebeccarulz123 (talk • contribs)

Another spelling comment
criticize is spelled wrong multiple times in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.46.7.18 (talk • contribs)
 * Criticise is a british variant spelling of criticize; this is not "wrong". It appears twice on the page.  Doctormatt 01:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Haha 'spelled' is of course 'spelt' in British English. 86.16.139.140 (talk) 22:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Big up to Doctormatt!

Is the new movie "August Rush" a version of Oliver Twist?
I think August Rush sould be added to the" Film, TV, theatrical and graphic novel adaptations" section. If follows a similar plot line. With the idea of the Robin Williams charactor being like Fagin and the boy August Rush who went through the same phase as Oliver Twiest went in..Federer12345 (talk) 03:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Page Count
I need to know the page count for the book. Isn't page count supposed to be a section on the right little sidebar with info on the book? Why isn't it there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.56.121 (talk) 01:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism
There has apparently been a spate of vandalism. IMHO this article needs to be protected. Agree or disagree?—DocWatson42 (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree - Would be a good idea to at least semi-protect the page. This article has been the object of vandalism by IP edits for quite some time now. Amsaim (talk) 22:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I just posted a request for semi-protection to the Requests for page protection page.—DocWatson42 (talk) 05:17, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Result (quoting): Pictogram voting oppose.svg Declined – Not enough recent disruptive activity to justify protection. tedder (talk) 07:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

A reference for this
I wonder if there ought to be a reference for this passage "Noting that Master Bates, when said aloud sounds like masturbates you could connect this meaning with parts in the text which tell of "Master Bates" always standing around with his hand in his pocket or pants and always with a smile on his face or laughing." One could indeed conect this meaning, but I somehow doubt Dickens intended that we should?  Giano  23:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)