Talk:Olivia Frank

Open question:
FortunateSons (talk) 11:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * should the article name include the job?
 * there is an error with the age in the jc article, I have verified with non-rs that the tablet age is accurate. Do I need an RS for that?
 * is the order for personal life appropriate, or should it be split into separate sections?
 * I would recommend changing "using a women’s passport" to "using a false passport". Sources say it was a false passport with a bogus identity; not the passport of an existing woman. Polygnotus (talk) 17:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That’s a good point; according to Tablet, it’s a women’s passport, and as confidentals says it’s a false passport, I would suggest changing it into “using a forged women’s passport”. What do you think? FortunateSons (talk) 17:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps "as a female, using a bogus identity"? I am no expert in this area. I will ping who knows more about this kinda stuff than me. My gut says that any passport she owns is automatically a woman's passport (but my gut is not trustworthy and I do not respect the English language). The idea is that it was a fake identity of someone who does not exist. Polygnotus (talk) 11:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I trust your judgement, but am eagerly awaiting @WhatamIdoings response as well :) FortunateSons (talk) 12:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I have no judgement, and if I did I would not trust it. I mostly focus my energy on being cute, not on being right. Polygnotus (talk) 12:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also quite valid pursuits if you ask me. If you prefer: I like your suggestion FortunateSons (talk) 12:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the gender on the passport is relevant. What matters is that it was forged.  I would just shorten it to "forged passport". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable, thank you :) FortunateSons (talk) 17:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Perfect, thank you. The easiest solutions are often the best. Polygnotus (talk) 17:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Sources?
This wikipedia article seems to rely heavily on a few articles that summarize Frank's memoirs. Are there any other sources that confirm her story? (Or perhaps I missed the part in the articles that includes some verification of her claims?) Rainsage (talk) 05:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)


 * That is indeed an issue. Some claims (like her work for Israeli intelligence) is independently verified, and some are plausible based on statements or observations of journalists, most notably and not yet included this written by him. This is unfortunately the nature of stories about lower level intelligence people, they can be notable and yet not notable enough for an official government enquiry or to have their cover publicly blown, which are often the two only ways to get fully uncorrelated coverage. FortunateSons (talk) 18:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * where were her claims of working for mossad independently verified? i tried googling but couldn't find anything. Rainsage (talk) 05:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * the lobster article is another source that relies heavily on her memoirs and does not independently verify her story. also, lobster seems to be a niche journal about conspiracy theories, based on the wikipedia article about it. Rainsage (talk) 05:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Lobster (magazine) is definitely a complicated source for a case like this, having both actual investigative content and more conspiratorial stories. However, there are multiple contributions that can be cited reasonably safely IMO, particularly in cases where the writer is a subject-matter expert or journalist, which the latter is here. Do you disagree? FortunateSons (talk) 07:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Lobster mostly just summarizes the claims made in her books, so I don't personally think it counts towards establishing the "verifiability" of the claims made in this wikipedia article. It also uses sensationalist, tabloid-like language.
 * Most of her books are out of print and were published by a company I can't find any info on. Rainsage (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My first request at RSN didn't get any feedback, I will try for a second one just in case. FortunateSons (talk) 07:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's in Footnote 2 FortunateSons (talk) 07:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure if Misaskim is a reliable source. All they actually claimed to confirm was that she worked for Mossad and was Jewish. Rainsage (talk) 22:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that’s the nature of operational information. We have RS coverage with generally plausible claims and about as much secondary information as we can get without one of the affected countries opening their archives. If they do and it doesn’t match what she claimed, I’m happy to revisit it in the future. FortunateSons (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * but then it doesn't really count as "verifiable"? Rainsage (talk) 22:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, that is the nature of much of what military and intelligence does. Her identity and work is verifiable, there is appropriate RS coverage, and the details will rely on either aboutself or open archives. Some of the claims are appropriately plausible, for example, per the author:
 * The Third Direction includes on pages 207 and 337 scanned images of two Security Service letters, including the image of a government envelope addressed to "Mr & Mrs J Frank". Both letters to Mr and Mrs Frank are signed by "T. Denham for the Director General" of MI5. The The Third Direction also includes on page 399 the text of a key email sent to the banker Elizabeth Forsyth by one of the Asil Nadir trial barristers. The accuracy of Olivia Frank's account of her encounters with Elizabeth Forsyth in prisons at Holloway and Cookham Wood was confirmed by Mrs Forsyth in personal interviews and emails, published at https://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/lob79-mossad-john-le-carre.pdf FortunateSons (talk) 22:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * i mean, i think that this wikipedia article should be more like the JC article which consistently makes clear where it is just repeating claims that she made in her memoirs. The "Alleged work for British intelligence and later life" section already does this... Rainsage (talk) 01:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Which phrasing do you feel is less clear than it should be? FortunateSons (talk) 06:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This could be 1 way to write the article lead:
 * Olivia Jane Frank (17 March 1956 – 11 September 2023)  was a transgender woman who served as an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) officer and an intelligence agent for the Mossad and MI5/MI6.  Due to the nature of her field, most of the details known about her life and career come from her memoirs. In The Mossad Spy (2019), she wrote about being recruited by David Kimche, infiltrating the Abu Nidal Organization, and assisting in the pursuit of the perpetrators and accomplices of the Munich massacre.  She also recounted assisting MI5/MI6 in an operation against Asil Nadir.  Rainsage (talk) 02:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the due-sentence would be nice, but is unfortunately not in line with what encyclopaedic style is (because it’s to close to commentary/OR). Perhaps replacing it with “In her memoirs, …” might work? FortunateSons (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The Jewish Chronicle was wrong to say that Olivia Frank was 'assisting in the pursuit of the perpetrators and accomplices of the Munich Massacre'. They were Black September and that massacre happened in 1972. In her book she says she was a 'combatant' who penetrated Abu Nidal in Munich in the late 1980s. She wrote that she was still in training at the Mossad academy in Israel in January 1984. [The Third Direction page 53]. Instead of 'assisting in the pursuit of the perpetrators and accomplices of the Munich Massacre' it would be better to state 'thwarting an Abu Nidal bombing conspiracy in Munich before being returned to England by the Mossad'. Andrew rosthorn (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Suggested summary of your positions (texts only):
 * Olivia Jane Frank (17 March 1956 – 11 September 2023) was a transgender woman who served as an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) officer and an intelligence agent for the Mossad and MI5/MI6. In her memoirs, she wrote about being recruited by David Kimche, infiltrating the Abu Nidal Organization, and thwarting a bombing conspiracy in Munich before being returned to England by the Mossad. She also recounted assisting MI5/MI6 in an operation against Asil Nadir.
 * Sources and links as stated? I think the bombing is better without clear attribution in the lead (because of the participation of the Wehrsportgruppe). Thoughts? FortunateSons (talk) 08:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me Rainsage (talk) 18:08, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Andrew rosthorn, @Rainsage added it to the lead (with minor changes), is everyone satisfied with the changes? FortunateSons (talk) 16:24, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * in case you haven't seen it yet, i also found this Lobster review of her book. i found it to be a clearer summary of the MI5/MI6 portion of her life compared to some of the other articles. Rainsage (talk) 02:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I knew about that, but I appreciate you reminding me. Just for your information, you are almost at extended-confirmation, and will be able to edit the full article once you (naturally) reach it. However, you can already edit parts which are unrelated to the I/P conflict, like most of the stuff about her work for British intelligence. FortunateSons (talk) 13:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)