Talk:Olivia Grant (actress, born 1983)

Copyedited
PaintedCarpet (talk) 16:17, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 7 November 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. As always, when there is no consensus primary topic, we disambiguate. Give it more time to see whether the name Olive Gray becomes more universally recognized. – wbm1058 (talk) 01:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

– The only other person known as Olivia Grant has come out as non-binary and changed their name to Olive Gray. 2A00:23C6:880C:E101:A18F:AC91:9177:E79F (talk) 13:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 18:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Olivia Grant (actress, born 1983) → Olivia Grant
 * Olivia Grant → delete
 * Support per nomination and WP:ONEOTHER. No need for the Olivia Grant disambiguation page. Any confusion between the two names is best handled via hatnotes. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. There's no longer any other article using the title. A hatnote would be appropriate. Station1 (talk) 05:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Olivia_Grant indicates that in September, there were 68 visits to Olivia Grant, which led to 14 visits to the first entry, and 11 to the second. For August we see from the graph that the ratio was much the same. That is not a substantial difference, nor is either of them anywhere close to getting most of the traffic for the name; if readers are still looking for this person under the other name and this level of interest is comparable to the other person, there is no primary topic for "Olivia Grant" and the disambiguation page should stay. (Oppose.) --Joy (talk) 09:25, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Why? A hatnote performs exactly the same function as dab page when there's only one other topic. Station1 (talk) 18:18, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Station1 Because if we move the primary topic to where we only know for sure that 20% of people wanted to go (that's 14 out of 68), that means we risk confusing up to 80% of readers, which would go against the principles described at WP:ASTONISH. In general, this is still a low level of traffic, too, so it's hard to even make estimates as to what the average reader wants, and in that case presenting a clear list seems like a no-brainer. --Joy (talk) 10:05, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think WP readers are so easily confused, certainly not 80% of them. Station1 (talk) 16:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it's hard to find support for your opinion in the observable data. --Joy (talk) 08:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * BTW in the meantime, WikiNav got updated for October, and now most graphs don't render at all, with the middle one showing incoming traffic at just 39.
 * Also, my edit to match the manual of style for disambiguation pages happened to get reverted by referencing another section of the manual of style for biographies saying don't use deadnames, but I'm not sure it's correct - surely if Olive Grey hadn't been notable as Olivia Grant their inclusion into the disambiguation page (or hatnotes) would be superfluous in the first place? --Joy (talk) 03:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think I see now, there's a gendered word in the disambiguation marker that could imply continued misgendering. Does it make sense to create Olivia Grant (actor born 1994) then to satisfy both sections of the manual of style? --Joy (talk) 12:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. There are two notable people who have had this name, and one ceased to use the "Olivia Grant" name several years ago, leaving us with just one person who is notable for contemporary work under this name. Agree with Roman Spinner and Station1 that a hatnote pointing to Olive Gray would also be useful. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Joy. There is a clear absence of primary topic here, given the outbound clicks... and also I don't think either can claim to have resounding long-term significance over the other. Whether the younger Olivia still uses the name is irrelevant per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT; clearly people are still searching for them under it. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination.  Je Bon Ser  (talk &#124; sign) 03:20, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per Roman Spinner, currently unnecessary identifier. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 17:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per . I have examined Clickstream Data for navigations from wikilinks in this disambiguation page, which indicates "no primary topic" for the title "Olivia Grant". The extracted data started from 2020 is listed below:

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clickstream-enwiki-2020-01.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    30

clickstream-enwiki-2020-02.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray_(actress)    link    29

clickstream-enwiki-2020-02.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    37

clickstream-enwiki-2020-03.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray_(actress)    link    19

clickstream-enwiki-2020-03.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    41

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clickstream-enwiki-2020-04.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    39

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clickstream-enwiki-2020-05.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    36

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clickstream-enwiki-2020-06.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    38

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clickstream-enwiki-2020-10.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    20

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clickstream-enwiki-2021-01.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    45

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clickstream-enwiki-2021-02.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    36

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clickstream-enwiki-2021-05.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    36

clickstream-enwiki-2021-06.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray      link    15

clickstream-enwiki-2021-06.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    33

clickstream-enwiki-2021-07.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray      link    23

clickstream-enwiki-2021-07.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    44

clickstream-enwiki-2021-08.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray      link    10

clickstream-enwiki-2021-08.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    34

clickstream-enwiki-2021-09.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray      link    87

clickstream-enwiki-2021-09.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    73

clickstream-enwiki-2021-10.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray      link    11

clickstream-enwiki-2021-10.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    16

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clickstream-enwiki-2021-11.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    22

clickstream-enwiki-2021-12.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    13

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clickstream-enwiki-2022-07.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    15

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clickstream-enwiki-2023-06.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    10

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clickstream-enwiki-2023-07.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    19

clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray      link    12

clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    14

clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olive_Gray      link    11

clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv.gz:Olivia_Grant Olivia_Grant_(actress,_born_1983)       link    14


 * NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 14:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Page move history
"Several years" is a bit ambiguous, as apparently the last name changed from Grant → Gray before the first name changed from Olivia → Olive.
 * at 20:23, 15 March 2009 moved page Olivia Grant (British child actress) to Olivia Grant (1995 British actress)
 * at 02:59, 20 March 2009 moved page Olivia Grant (1995 British actress) to Olivia Grant (1994 British actress) (born in 1994, so page must move to fit this nomenclature)
 * at 03:59, 25 April 2012 moved page Olivia Grant (1994 British actress) to Olivia Grant (actress born 1994) (naming convention)
 * at 15:43, 20 November 2013 moved page Olivia Grant (actress born 1994) to Olivia Grant (actress, born 1994) (Following Wikipedia naming conventions)
 * at 13:11, 31 January 2014 moved page Olivia Grant (actress, born 1994) to Olivia Grant (actress born 1994) over redirect (comma not needed)
 * at 10:13, 1 July 2014 moved page Olivia Grant (actress born 1994) to Olivia Grant (actress, born 1994) over redirect (WP:NCPDAB)
 * at 09:11, 8 December 2017 moved page Olivia Grant (actress, born 1994) to Olivia Gray (now known professionally as Olivia Gray)
 * at 22:58, 15 March 2019 moved page Olivia Gray to Olive Gray (actress) (new legal name and stage name of this person)
 * at 13:28, 6 October 2020 moved page Olive Gray (actress) to Olive Gray (no disambiguation needed)

In any event, it's just been four years since the name was changed to the current name "Olive Gray", which based on some arguments above may yet be insufficient time for the current (actress) name to be sufficiently widely recognized as a consensus primary-topic name. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * That's an argument that Olivia Grant (actress, born 1983) isn't primary per WP:PT2 and a perfect complement to my argument that it's not primary per WP:PT1. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 00:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not seeing that either has significant enduring notability or educational value, so this case is mostly decided on criterion #1. wbm1058 (talk) 01:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.