Talk:Olivia Manning

Chronology
I can't work out what order these events are in:


 * "Manning was educated privately at a small dame school before travelling to Northern Ireland in 1916, the first of several extended periods spent there while her father was at sea. In Bangor she attended the Bangor Presbyterian School, and while in Portsmouth Lyndon House School, and subsequently Portsmouth Grammar School, developing, as she recalled, "the usual Anglo-Irish sense of belonging nowhere".[8][5] Schoolmates described her as shy and prone to tantrums; her tendency to tell boastful tall-tales about her family led to ostracism by her peers.[9] Supported by her father, Manning read and wrote extensively, preferring novels, especially those by H. Rider Haggard. Her mother discouraged such pursuits, and confiscated material she thought unsuitable; when she found her daughter reading the Times Literary Supplement she scolded that "young men do not like women who read papers like that", and that Manning should focus on marketable job skills, such as typing.[10]


 * "Indeed, when financial circumstances forced Manning to leave school at sixteen, she went to work as a typist in professional offices, and spent some time as a junior in a beauty salon. A talented artist, she took evening classes at the Portsmouth Municipal School of Art, where a fellow student described her as intellectual and aloof.[11][5] In May 1928, she had a painting selected for an exhibition at Southsea, and was subsequently offered a one woman show of her works. Manning seemed to be poised for a career as an artist, but she meanwhile she had continued her interest in literature, particularly modern literature, and at the age of twenty determined instead to be writer.[12] Her artistic skills were to resurface in her writing in her intense descriptions of landscape.[5]

I assume the dame-school was some kind of pre-primary and it was in Portsmouth. Then in 1916 she moves to Northern Ireland. Then in the next sentence we're in Bangor - I'm not sure where that is, but I think it's somewhere in Britain. So I'd like to be told how old she was when this happened, and where Bangor is. And then shes in Portsmouth - but when? Perhaps the para could be re-written along the lines of:


 * Olivia's childhood was marked by constant moves as the family followed her father's varying assignments. By the time she left school at sixteen she had attended four different schools, and schoolmates later remembered her as shy, introverted, prone to tantrums, and given to boastful tall-tales about her family. Unhappy and ostracised at school, she sought refuge in books, especially the novels of Rider Haggard. Her frequently absent father encouraged her love of reading and writing, but her mother confiscated "unsuitable" material ("young men do not like women who read papers like that!" she scolded when she discovered Olivia reading the TLS) and nagged her daughter to concentrate on marketable job skills such as typing.

Just a suggestion. PiCo (talk) 03:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay in responding. Not much internet time these days. Thanks for this request for clarification, and though I can help a bit, we are hampered by the not-the-greatest bio as a main source. So yes, the dame school is a short of private school for young girls; basically she spent her youth going back and forward between Portsmouth and her mother's old hometown in Bangor (in Northern Ireland-it's mentioned at the start, but bears repeating it appears) while her father was sailing the ocean's blue. It wasn't really his assignments changing, but a mother going home to her mother while her husband was away. The dates are not given in the book, but that she went back and forth several times, staying for long periods of time, including attending school in both places etc. So while much of your proposed sentence is great, some of it needs modification,and I have given it a quick shot.  The bio doesn't make the point that she took refuge in books as a response to the school situation. More than she was, (and remained) a rather difficult person, tending to lie about herself (and others) throughout her life. --Slp1 (talk) 09:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Portsmouth Grammar School
Further to the above, Olivia Manning could not have been educated at Portsmouth Grammar School since it was all boys at the time. The school does not seem to claim her as a former pupil either.Poshseagull (talk) 07:52, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Another question
Another question: "Manning's first published works were three serialized detective novels, "Rose of Rubies", "Here is Murder" and "The Black Scarab" written in 1929 under the pseudonym Jacob Morrow." Were they actually written in 1929, or just published? To write 3 novels in 1 year is a major achievement!PiCo (talk) 05:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting this: I think I had written a more accurate version earlier, and then somehow copy-edited things to the above state. Have made an edit to get it back on track.--Slp1 (talk) 12:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Lawrence Durrell and Manning
I read somewhere that Manning and Durrell met in Egypt and didn't get on - very different personalities. At that time neither was famous, of course, but they both moved in the literary circles of wartime Cairo/Alexandria - a Golden Age forsooth. Worth mentioning? PiCo (talk) 12:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the great edits; you've made the article much better. Yes, he did know her and dislike her, calling her a "hook-nosed condor", I believe. I have included Durrell's name as part of the poetry gang in Cairo, but could certainly include more.  I'll look into it soon.--Slp1 (talk) 13:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Shortened the lead
I cut the lead back considerably, trying to show the reader - the one who never actually gets past the lead - exactly why she's notable. In essence she was a one-hit wonder, but the one hit was six novels long, and easily comparable to, say, the Sword of Honour trilogy. (And some of her other work was extremely light - a novel about some goings-on in the Indian Ocean which features a spider which can spread a deadly disease...spiders can't spread anything sweety, they kill their prey with poison, it dies before it has a chance to get ill). The material I cut can go in the body of the article, but the lead should be reserved for showing the essence. Of course, if you disagree, I shall defer :) PiCo (talk) 01:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks and haha about the spider. You've made the Lead much better, but I think I may re-add some of it back, if you don't mind. I would like to include a little something about her childhood, partly because the Lead is supposed to summarize the article, and partly because the anglo-irish thing is widely quoted, and informative I think.  I am just about to put the article up for Good Article status.  What do you think?  I think it is time for some external reviews. --Slp1 (talk) 01:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure, go ahead. It'll be interesting to see what others say. Personally I think the Fortunes of War is one of the best studies of the impact of war I've read - it follows mostly civilians, which is unusual, and the characters are so well-drawn and the incidents so compelling. I love the death of Yusipov - I've just seen the Johnny Depp movie about Dillinger, and I can't imagine Dillinger getting gunned down in the street and dying with the words "I say old chap!" on his lips. The Alexandria Quartet, by contrast, is downright tedious, with all the purple prose and Gothicism. PiCo (talk) 02:01, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yakimov, Yakimov. How could you get it wrong?!! And who, pray tell, is Yusipov? I loved the books, and the TV series. I read the Levant ones when I was in Egypt for a time, so it was terribly real to me too. I was a bit disappointed to learn what a crabby thing their creator was, and how mixed the response to the books, even the FoW has been. But it has been interesting reading the literary criticism especially Steinberg and Lassner; I'll have to read the books again to see how true their analysis seems to be.--Slp1 (talk) 02:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

What does this mean?
In the section Greece and Egypt, the sentence leading to footnote #56 says: "From Alexandria they woved to Cairo..." I can't tell what the word woved means. If it's a typo, what word should it be? Ed8r (talk) 18:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My guess: They moved to Cairo. PiCo (talk) 22:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course!Ed8r (talk) 15:29, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Year of birth
Just googling the dear old crab - several sites give 1911 as YOB. I'm sure they're wrong, but given the disagreement, it might be worth giving a ref in the article for your correct info on this controversial point. PiCo (talk) 07:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah yes, probably part of endless the lies about her age. The Times obit gives her birthdate as 1915, and her pal Walter Allen wrote a rather ungallant correction saying "I never knew Olivia to divulge her age, but I do not find it easy to believe that she was only 22 in 1939". The bio and the ODNB all clearly say 1908.  I've cited this specifically in the text.  I'm not that keen on citations in the Lead, but if you think it is necessary, let me know.  Looking forward to further comments and edits!  --Slp1 (talk) 00:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If there's so much confusion about the DOB, perhaps a note in the refs section is the way to go - just explain all that you've said here. I'm not sure how those notes work in terms of formatting, but if you want I can find out. PiCo (talk) 06:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Structure (last two sections)
I think it might work better if the sections Fortunes of War and Lit Asses were combined (note the careful use of the subjunctive mood there, you don't often see that these days).

I'd put FOW on top - it's what she's famous for, and it's a very substantial body of work. (Durrell is famous for almost nothing but Alexandria,and that's only 4 books). That will lead nicely into your existing Style and Technique subsection. But it might also be worth having a para on her remaining fiction, concentrating esp on that Jerusalem book - I haven't read it, but it seems to be regarded as a good one.

So what I'm suggesting is a section headed Achievement (maybe - what do other lit biogs have? Henry James?) with a section Major Works (FOW plus the rest, esp the Jerusalem book), Reception (instead of Style and Technique, because it doesn't actually go into that aspect - she was not a traditional 19th century realist rather than a 20th century modernist, IMO, but what would I know), and Major Themes. PiCo (talk) 06:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Just looked at Henry James. It's organised as LIFE-WORK-RECEPTION, followed by WORKS-NOTES-REFS-LINKS. So that might work for Olivia dearest. (And let's try to avoid prose like this: "James early established the precedent of pursuing his career as a man of letters." The precedent? I'm amazed, shocked and saddened that people who obviously love literature should have such a poor grasp of style.) PiCo (talk) 06:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestions. I WILL get to reworking this, adding the last dregs of information in the next two days and trying the organization you suggest. I've been procrastinating terribly, but I have to do it soon, as one of the books has to go back to the library on Tuesday (though I supposed I could always photocopy the chapter......) Please send me reminders and threats every 6 hours starting tomorrow afternoon if you don't see me making progress. And if you feel like it, please get your hands dirty yourself!!!  PS impressed by the subjunctive mood. --Slp1 (talk) 03:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Nice article
Nice, informative article. I came here seeking info after watching the BBC miniseries Fortunes of War. Thanks very much to Slp1, who seems to be mainly responsible for this article. Softlavender (talk) 08:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)