Talk:Olympic marmot/Archive 2

TCO review
I'll write a little more (rather than fixing things) since you need to get the learning. I'm not totally nitpicking the prose at this stage. Can do a fine pass, later. Am going to put this in section by section. In general, my comments are in text order, which will help you find stuff.

Also, I'm not saying you have to do every action here (especially wrt content or drawings) to "get the plus sign". Just giving some feedback, FWIW!

Lead T
A. Make sure when this whole process is done, you come back and look at the lead again, especially if content is changing. Also, Lead is most viewed prose, so you really want to make it sharp prose-wise. But sometimes easier towards the end. (Image captions are next most read prose.)

B. Try to avoid lists of information in prose in general but especially for a lead. Make it punchier. So instead of listing every terrain (here), just say slopes or middle elevations of the Olympic mountains. Same with predators...just specify the coyote as most important (helpful for reader to say most imporant, gives him more than just a list does). Then lower down, say leaves and specify the most significant one (find it in a source).

C. In the current structure, I advise para breaks at Colonies... and then at The Olympic marmot is considered a folivore... (you get four paras and I think it will read better with more breaks, shorter is generally easier and also means you can have more unified paras).

D. However, I would re-org the structure to push behavior down a little further (less captivating than who eats it). I think something along the lines of paras :

1. Taxo and then range

2. Description

3. Ecology (what it eats and who eats it), then behavior

4. Interaction with humans (the state mammal fact can come down here).

-- Done! Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 18:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

E. "For this reason" -> cut

F. "hibernate from September through May to June." -> "hibernate in September" (next clause explains emergence times).

G. "emerge from hibernation" -> "emerge"

H. "is considered a species of" -> "is rated" (tighten up)

I. "They are" -> "It is" (It is OK to shift some from plural to singular when talking about a species, but try to avoid unneeded shifts within a para. Easier on the reader.)

-- Done :) Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 18:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Good work, 'tick!

Taxonomy T
A. Make and add a simple diagram to show the taxonomic heirarchy in the paragraph. Will be more high value than the picture of the taxonomist (and he can slide down to the last section which is about humans). I am imagining some sort of branching tree, showing more information as you go down, to the right: Sciuridae (squirrels) at top, then genus branch, then two subgenuses, then the members of this subgenus (especially the ones mentioned in article). I can dummy something up if you want and flip it to graphics or you can play with it yourself. (your choice).

B. The "deviates from" discussion is slightly confusing. I started reading it, thinjking it was about our guy's own subgenus, but it is really about differentiating him from the subgenus he is not part of. I think it's good content, but can be written clearer. "Like the other members of X subgenus (New World marmots), the Olympic marmot is differentiated from Y subgenus (Old World marmots) because of blablabla"
 * The text clearly says that the deviations are those of the Olympic and Vancouver Island marmots from the hoary and yellow-bellied marmots, the rest of the subgenus. Is this not the case, then (did you look at the source)? (I'll look soon unless someone else does.) &mdash;innotata 20:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I was confused there. When you look at the marmota page, there is a subgenus and the parent genus both called marmota.  My bad.  TCO (Reviews needed) 20:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

C. Is any more known about the revision in taxonomy? Is it agreed on? What evidence is there to differentiate from the typical Rocky Mountain or Cascade marmots or from Vancouver Island marmots?
 * Which revision? As I've corrected the article to state, the Olympic marmot has usually been recognised as a species, only a few taxonomists have merged it with the hoary or Alpine marmots. &mdash;innotata 20:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Eh, OK on that one too. Not sure how I missed that.TCO (Reviews needed) 20:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

D. It works as is, but a para break might be nice especially if it gets any longer.

E. Add the term "ice ages" where you talk about Pleistene and refugia (will help the reader).

F. Give parenthetical explanations (jawbone) and (back). Leave chromosomes as is since there is no convenient parenthetical.

G. (General, not just this section) Take a look at the article (and especially the references) for the Vancouver Island marmot (and perhaps the Hoary and the general marmot articles). See if that gives you any ideas. Check out the ref names and see if there are some that might have useful here. In particular, I recommend pulling ref 12, the Ph.D. dissertation. Often the first chapter of a dissertation will be a very useful literature review...and it may have the big picture for marmots, not just about the Vancouver Island brand. It may also have some better discussion of why VI and O marmots are different species. If your library does not have UMI pdfs for dissertations, then the reference help desk at wiki (link on my user page) will get it for you.
 * The sources I added in correcting the first part of the taxonomy section also should be useful. Of course, not all of this is needed now (for GA), just that the section be correct, somewhat balanced in topics covered, and well-written. &mdash;innotata 20:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Description T

 * Cut the "both sex" qualifier and move the sentence about 50% weight loss down to hibernation (little better fit there).


 * Cut the sentence about what they weigh when they emerge (kinda trivial math and crufty numbers).


 * GOOD that you compare size to other species (comparisons and rankings more reader friendly than abstract numbers).


 * Delink coat and muzzle. These are common words and crappy wiki articles.  Not links we need or want reader to go to.


 * (Consider) Make a diagram to show the 2-layer fur concept (perhaps in cross section). See if there is a good one in an article.  Graphics Lab can make it for you.


 * Is VI marmot black all year round? We just said ours is black in the summer!  (Another point for researching VI refs a little).

Distribution and habitat T

 * Cut "is protected". That's handled in conservation.  Let's keep tight focus on the section header topic.


 * For similar reasons, let's move the factoid about state mammal down to the bottom section. (this section is about the animal.) Probably the very last paragraph in article.  Not sure if we want to rename that last section "Interaction with humans" or leave as "Conservation".  Go look at the state site ref and do a Google News search for 2009 and also find the resolution for when the approved it as state mammal.  Get a little more detail so that you have about 2 sentences, plus a quote (from the resolution) for that last para.

Ending an article with a quote is a very nice flourish. It brings some meaning back and makes the reader feel like things concluded. It's good "human interest" and a slick trick (can use it with school papers and the like too). See the last section in Manhattan Project for a great example.

I am thinking you want something like this (don't know exact content, but):

Sentence 1 (The Olympic marmot was declared Washington's state endemic mammal on X day when Governor Y signed bill Z). Sentence 2 (The resolution followed a 2 year project by the elementary school class of Mr. umtifratz at blabla Elementary School with schoolchildren researching the animal and defending it before the Legislature). Sentence 3 and blockquote (Washington State declares its appreciation for the Olympic marmot: "The Olympic marmot is an appropriate symbol for Washington because it is found only in our state...its name references the friendship and culture of the ancient Greeks which give the Olympic peninsula its name...like all things truly Washingtonian, it should be cherished and preserved."

See State reptile or last section of Painted turtle or Common box turtle for some of this game. I would probably use the markup (blockquote) of the Manhattan Project quote though, not the boxed quote.


 * Give the conver to hectares for acres. -I'm having trouble with this conversion. Help please! Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 06:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Can do it manually, calculate the number and just put it in parens.TCO (Reviews needed) 23:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done that, but what is this the home range of? I assume this is a typical colony's area, but from the text it sounds more like the entire species, or an individual; this should be clearly stated. &mdash;innotata 18:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I looked into the source, and it states that 1/2 acre-acre is the typical home range of one marmot family, so I just went and specified that. Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 09:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Cut "at most"


 * Cut the first clause of second para and move to the end: An individuals homer range blabla.


 * Actually just take a look at that whole second para and think about the structure of it as a para. I think the explanation of what a burrow is, should go up a bit higher in the para.  Just see what you can do to make that thing have a strong structure.


 * Cut "groups of" and in general tighten that clause it is in (reads a little confusing now).


 * I don't think "death" is exactly the term you want here (I think little local meadow population extirpations is the issue). See what you can do to make that clearer...


 * Kind of more of an aspiration, but you might think about for the future some sort of humdinger map that shows more detail. For instance the different place names referred to in article (the Sol dec river, the Hurrican ridge), the boundaries of the park, the range of the animal of course, other species marmots (I guess the VI ones and the other close ones...let's reader see how near they are to their neighbors), maybe some topography showing elevation that is suitable, too low, and too high (gives reader some perspective for how much of the area is really amenable to the animal).  This would be a bit of a project, but with enough work probably get a Featured Picture award.  Could go centered, large, here, thus not needing text wrap.  (You'd still leave the simple, undetailed map in the infobox, that is nice for a quick reference, but bad for detailed maps.)


 * What is a well conditioned ecological level? What does that mean? Can we flesh that out a little with more content (a tactical example, some quantitative info)?  And how does the animal eating the stuff make the stuff grow better?  Does the presence of marmots retard forestation or destabilize trees?  Are there any endangered species that it conflicts with (like screwing up bristlepine cones or the like) or making holes that sheep break their legs in or anthing?


 * Advise to cut (or better move) the parasite info down to Ecology. Either slide it under Predation or make a section for parasites and blow it up to a para, using some research.


 * I'm sorry that I'm not addressing everything very quickly. I promise I'll get around to all of it, but now that school has started back up for me and I'm no longer having winter break, I have less time to work on Wikipedia, especially with the workload from my other classes. It'll get done, I promise! I probably just won't be as quick as I was when I had more time on my hands. And also, I do plan on making a section for parasites once I've done enough research to write a whole paragraph, I just haven't gotten that far yet, so how it is now is just temporary. Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 06:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Ecology T

 * (no action needed) This is fine as is, just a span-breaker header and the two subordinate sections directly under. Maybe keep in the back of your mind the potential for some deeper integrate discussion if the parasite thing gets developed.  Also, we could move the discussion of "well conditioned ecological level" down here as well.

Feeding T

 * "and other grasses, leaves, flowers, mosses, and roots" (delink all these words as common words. The previous particular plants were good to link to, though).  Actually think you can just cut this entire phrase.  The sentence already says  "meadow plants such as blabla" (so no reason to repeat all these general categories).
 * Would it be acceptable to just delete "other grasses, leaves, flowers, and roots"? Because when I think of meadow flora, I don't really think of moss, and since it's not mentioned later in the paragraph, I wouldn't want to leave it out. If I'm wrong, I'll delete those too, just a thought! Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 19:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)


 * OK.TCO (Reviews needed) 19:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "after hibernation" change to "in the spring". It confused me to hear after hibernation, because I thought it meant after entering!


 * "At this time," cut


 * "will" cut


 * Change the semicolon to a period. The source does not associate eating insects with spring.


 * I also don't like current source 9. Looks like a link farm.  I would think we can cite the several facts associated with it, from better sources.  Something to work on...


 * Para break at During.


 * It's a little confusing here. Do they eat during hibernation or not?  Part of it says no (and the section below seems to say they are dormant).  But then we talk a lot about eating in winter.  Let's explain more clearly what goes on.
 * I am 100% sure that they do NOT eat during hibernation. I think "during winter" was the part that was incorrect, and it really just should have said when snowfall is covering the food. Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 19:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It is clearer now, thanks.TCO (Reviews needed) 19:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Predation T

 * "The Olympic marmot's predators include terrestrial animals and avian raptors, such as coyotes, cougars, bobcats, black bears, and golden eagles." This is confusing with category A and B and then examples of each. Make it category A, example of A, then category B, examples of B.


 * "It would appear that bears" tighten to It appears bears or Bears probably


 * "do not" change to does not (I think presence is singular)


 * delink droppings


 * I'm not sure predators needs a link, but if so, make it at first appearance. --"Preyed" is linked to predation in the lead. Should I unlink that and then link predators in the first appearance in the habitat and distribution? I tried linking to predators but that leads to the page predation. Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC) Just delink the later wikilink to predator since you have it in lead (it is a pretty common term and broad idea anyway).


 * Put a para break in second para. You have 13 sentences, counting the semicoloned clauses.  It does have a pretty unified them, but that is too long.  Maybe where you start talking about David Barash, make the break.


 * "Fishers" at the front of a sentence like that is confusing. Yeah, there is the wikilink, but still...try to write so things are clear without following them.  Maybe say Fishercats.  Or say Weasels.  Or put in a parenthetical, to explain they are a type of weasel.  Probably "Fishercats" wikilinked is good solution.


 * "An additional behavior that takes place when a marmot becomes nervous or bothered by a predator is that it retracts its top lip to show its upper incisors. It is almost like a greeting for predators.[27]" Move that to the end of your (new, after breaking) second para. Then the third para will be all the David Barash study.


 * "observation and studies" tighten this to one or the other. Also, I wonder about moving this para down to Conservation.  You could also talk about marmot watching by touristis (if that exists).  That whole Conservation section can turn into an Interaction with humans section.


 * Praising them for making a home for fleas and tapeworms sounds strange. Leave it for now, I guess.  I'm kind of hoping eventually we end up with some para after Ecology, before diet that is a bit of an intro to the two and that discusses the whole circle of life in the meadows.  The tapeworm factoid would fit into that, then.  As well as stuff about the regulation of the vegetation type by their grazing.  For future, though... --I really do plan on expanding that section as soon as I get more time, and as soon as I finish all the minor changes. Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Writing is pretty good. Your text flows and is not wordy.  Many of your paras are structured. --Thank you! Your writing and reviewing is great as well. Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Behavior T
(fine)

Colonies T

 * Change the wikilink to go to social animal, not social


 * Activity patterns vary -> Activity varies (tighten)


 * "the summer months of" cut


 * (no action) interesting content with the two males in the colony.

Communication T
First para here is too long (14 sentences). Also the topic sentence covers physical and calls, but later in section we learn about smell as well. Suggest to reorg this more like so:

Para 1 Physical (modify the topic sentence that formerly covered both physical and calls, probably by just deleting it.)

Para 2 Calls

Para 3 Scent

Would have liked to discuss Calls first, but it seems we need to know about playfights, first, so keep in that order.

--Done! Imthebombliketicktick (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Hibernation T

 * Tighten first sentence.
 * only with -> with only
 * (logic issue)  the not eating  explains why they have to be fat before hibernation.  but I think the only occasional warming is not a part of that causal relationship.  Would separate that fact out and maybe put it where you talk about body temperature.  Maybe just say they are mostly dormant, if that was your point.
 * Add a parenthetical explanation for parous females (those that have not given birth yet).  It makes it longer, but I think word is uncommon enough for a general reader that an explanation needed.
 * "than the nonparous females and adult males" cut this (comparison understood based on previous sentence).  Probably replace whole phrase with a comma (would not normally have one by the rules of grammar, but a pause is needed.)

Life Cycle T

 * "About 30–35% of females have a litter each year," This reads a little confusing coming right after saying the females have babies every other year. Maybe rephrase, "In a given year, a third of all females will have a litter."  (I think that is the meaning intended.  Also, try to avoid ranges of numbers especially if they are very tight...just reads crufty to have so many numbers and the difference of 30 to 35% is so small, no extra meaning for the reader.)


 * Chop the third sentence in half. Better division of ideas that way.


 * "Neither males nor females reach sexual maturity until they are three years old," change to Both males and females mature sexually at three years, but the females don't reproduce until blabla... (just reads stronger to write a positive sentence than a negative one.)


 * Add a parenthetical (heat) after estrous.


 * The comment about half babies dying is repeated in para one and para two.


 * Take a look at all the sentences of this section and see if you can organize the content better. The second para seems to have a strong theme, but the first covers a lot of different territory. Probably changing to 3 paras (maybe 4) and some sentence moving around would make the organization clearer.  I would like to clearly be able to point to each para and say what it is about.  Like one on demographics, one on copulation, one on growth.  (or whatever)

Conservation T

 * Change section name to interaction with humans. It's a clunkier title, but we have enough content that is not just Conservation.  For now, would avoid subsections, unless it grows too much.  Just use separate paragraphs for division of topics.


 * Would be good to find out if these little guys are signficant tourist attractions (like whale watching for whales). Here is one paper (more from the marmot concern perspective, than from the touristic value).


 * Some comments from higher up in the review apply down here.


 * David Baresh was mentioned earlier in the article. Wikilink at first use.


 * For the marmot monitoring, there is a specific webpage that actually has the monitoring program (not just the general one) you have cited. See if there are any other places where you want to make a more specific citation.


 * (no action) overall, pretty clear section. Looks good.

Other T

 * Prior to FAC, we should get a Washingtonian to review and make sure we didn' mess up some geography or local understanding.


 * Prior to FAC, we could ask Griffen to do a review. Her email is indicated in that tourism paper.

Refs T
Generally pretty good selections. I recommend getting rid of the eNature and Wildlife North America refs and citing same content from more scholarly sources. Maybe the New Hampshire TV station one as well (that's a little better though). The Blumstein calling fact sheet looks OK. He is a professor who studies marmots. He's another person for a potential pre-FAC review (no holdup for GA though).

Couple comments elsewhere relate to possible new refs for the article. I did not check formatting nits (FA is very observant of those, so before heading there we would need to look at that with a microscope).

External links T
Fine. (no action)

Template T
Fine. (no action)

See also T
If not wikilinked in article, then make a section "See also" (it goes higher than the Refs I think) that contains these two wikilinks:

List_of_Washington_state_symbols

List of U.S. state mammals

(But if you do have those links provided in article, no need for this section.)

Categories T
Add Category:Olympic National Park and Category:Symbols of Washington (state)

Infobox T
Add a citation for the synonym.
 * Done, forgot it in adding (though it is mentioned in text) &mdash;innotata 17:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Media T
Article is well laid out, with attractive visuals. You have a little bit of space in Behavior where more could go in (but not a need). Didn't check permissions given Guerillo did.

This is way over the top, but if someone here on Wiki is making a trip to look at the marmots and could tape record some of their calls and upload a sound file, that would be interesting to have in the Communication section. Or possibly a donation from one of the academics (Griffen I guess). Not at all trying say you need to go to these lengths! Just recording the idea in case anyone (even me) decides to follow up.

Talk page T
Looks good. Probably when it is ready for FAC, have User Suncreator add archiving. For now, you probably want this stuff available to look at. But if it gets to be a distraction, consider archiving.

(review done)

TCO (Reviews needed) 20:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Orphan source
The last work cited, Witczuk 2007, is not used in the refs. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:46, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Prose
could you doublecheck these edits I made? I thought the prose was rough, but perhaps I got it wrong. Thanks, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me, as for the article's overall quality, my "disclaimer" is that I mostly review content, and am maybe not always attuned to the finer points of word-smithing, being a non-native English speaker (which is why I always request copy-edits of "my" articles before I send them to FAC). So I'm probably fine with any such edits you would make, as long as the meaning is retained. FunkMonk (talk) 20:34, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not to worry ... we are nowhere near FAR territory! Thanks, and unwatch. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Evolutionary history
I just moved @Mackenziemogren's addition of information about the marmot's migration across the Bering straight from its own section to Taxonomy, where there's some further discussion of its evolutionary history. I am concerned that there's a contradition here between that and "The Olympic marmot is thought to have originated during the last glacial period as an isolated relict population of the hoary marmot in the Pleistocene ice-free refugia", but do not understand the content here well enough to try correct it myself. Rusalkii (talk) 19:40, 18 September 2022 (UTC)