Talk:Once Upon a Time season 4/Archive 1

Once upon a time in Wonderland
This article says the show was cancelled when is wasnt, it ended.. the creators felt like they told the whole story — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.24.35 (talk) 13:59, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It was cancelled, the writers stated that they wrote the first season as a complete story but they could've continued it had ABC renewed it. Instead they cancelled it.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 14:41, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Ice/Snow Queen
Hey :) Just for say: on OUAT, Elsa is the Ice Queen - she is named like that in the official summary released by ABC. You can read it here :). I prefer to talk about it because I dont really know how to do a quotation here, and because someone really charming reverted my edit, telling me I'm uncapable to read an article (also implying I'm stupid?). But I prefer to think Wikipedia must follow the original source aka ABC :) So, on OUAT, Elsa is named the Ice Queen, while the main antagonist (played by Elizabeth Mitchell) is more likely the original Snow Queen from the fairytale (Source). Thank you everyone :) 86.75.160.150 (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, actually, in case you didn't read the entirety of the articles, there is another Snow/Ice Queen as well. This is the main villain of Season 4's Frozen arc, which is clearly not Elsa. As for the rest, I'm pretty sure I already explained myself (and provided the links) quite a few times via edit summaries and the talk pages of certain IPs, so I'm not going to do that here. LightandDark2000 (talk) 07:54, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, well, well. Check this out. Read through all of it. Looks like I was right all along. Elsa is NOT the Snow Queen; in this arc, the Snow Queen is the main villain for the first 11 episodes of Season 4. PS, do not launch personal attacks, or else you may be reported for harassing other people. LightandDark2000 (talk) 08:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The "major arc" quotation in this article's intro
"The second half of the season will see the return of Kristin Bauer van Straten as Maleficent, in a recurring capacity for a "major arc.""

On this sentence, the fragment "major arc" is surrounded by quotation marks. Some time ago, I put the period after "major arc" after the second quotation mark rather than before it. However, upon discovering that the period had been placed back before the last quotation mark, I put the period back outside the last quotation mark, and even explained in the edit summary that "the quotation 'major arc' isn't a full sentence, so the period must go outside the quotation mark". Today, I have discovered that the period after "major arc" was placed back before the last quotation mark again. I then searched this article's edit history and found out that User:LightandDark2000 had did the reversion on October 27. Maybe he must prefer "typesetter quotation" over "logical quotation", even though I don't. I put this on the talk page because I didn't want to risk an edit war by putting the period after "major arc" back outside the quotation marks. Jim856796 (talk) 06:22, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've put a hidden note there, hopefully that will help-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 08:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Critical Reception
Has anyone seen any critical reception for this season on a whole?-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 22:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't even think that such a thing actually exists. LightandDark2000 (talk) 10:08, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * There is, it is mostly things like the pilot and finale, and an overall review of the season can normally be obtained the first couple of seasons.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 15:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not experienced in this field, sorry to say. If the critical reception for the season is normally released during the first couple of episodes, then it should be out by now. If not, then I have no idea what is going on. LightandDark2000 (talk) 08:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Main cast image
Has anyone seen a promotional image of the entire main cast. Like this one that we can use on this article, list of characters and the main page?-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 18:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Smash the Mirror
Should this not be shown as two episodes? The season is expanded to 23 episodes and one of the twitter sources says that the extra hour was in addition to the 22 episodes ordered, therefore Smash the Mirror Part 2 is the 23rd episode that was ordered and it should be listed in this articlae as two episodes, therefore the first half of the season will have 12 episodes. Look at futon critic to see that the two hours have different production codes (408A and 408B). I hope this makes sense. The article currently has a note saying smash the mirror shouldn't be two episodes, but I heavily disagree. Also, if you look at Scandal's listings on futon critic, that also has production codes of 404A and 404B, which aired on different nights and considered on wikipedia as different episodes. The 408A and 408B episodes for once upon a time should similarly be considered different episodes, as they have separate production codes, even though they will air back to back. 124.197.23.204 (talk) 05:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe we are waiting for it to air, otherwise it is two rows of the same information. After it airs we will probably split it to have both plot summarizes. I also think that all of the sources are open to different interpretations. We think Smash the Mirror is 1 episode while the wiki is convinced it is two episodes-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 11:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I personally think it should be listed as ep 74/75 and 8/9 currently and the subsequent episodes increased by one, but I guess it's only got a couple of weeks till it airs so no big issue yet. Also, it says on the page that it airs at 7/6c as per Adam Horowitz's tweet, but the schedules show it airing at 8/7c, pre-empting Resurrection. 124.197.10.20 (talk) 23:24, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * source for the timing? I may be able to put it onto the article.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 00:20, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * http://www.zap2it.com/tvlistings?aid=zap2it&time=1416186000 also futon critic has it at 8 124.197.10.20 (talk) 07:02, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ the timings, thanks.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 11:08, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Confused.
What does "The Snow Queen remembers Emma from a past encounter that Emma doesn't remember anything about except for Gold" mean from the Rocky Road summary, it make sense in the beginning then this bit does. "...past encounter that Emma doesn't remember anything about except for Gold". Can someone explain to me what this means please?-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 13:40, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Taking a stab here: Snow Queen knows Emma. Emma can't remember the Snow Queen. Outside of the two, the only person who knows of their connection is Mr Gold. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 13:44, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is true (and I watched all of the episodes, by the way). The problem here is that we have people rushing to plunk in episode summaries without taking the time to check the grammar and make sure that it actually makes sense. LightandDark2000 (talk)

Premiere Ratings
Nielsen admitted back in early October to making an error with the reported numbers, in light of ABC receiving numerous adjustments up often by two tenths in the final ratings releases. See here http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/10/10/nielsen-admits-technical-error-has-impacted-broadcast-tv-ratings-since-march-revised-fall-season-ratings-to-be-issued/313040/ For some reason, some users feel the need to revert to the incorrect Nielsen numbers from the TVbythenumbers Sunday Final Ratings release for the premiere prior to this issue being brought to light. However Deadline issued a Live+7 data release days after Nielsens press release with the corrected numbers. Thoughts? 86.15.195.205 (talk) 20:48, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Smash the Mirror synopses
Since the decision has been made to list Part 1 and Part 2 of Smash the Mirror in separate rows, I'm going to change their subcontinent synopses so that they accurately reflect the way they're actually divided up content-wise. Part 1 ends with Emma on her way to meet Gold, and Part 2 begins with Anna taking the Urn with her into her cell.DigificWriter (talk) 04:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Speculative airing dates
Editors of this article have a nasty habit of making assumptions when it comes to broadcast dates supplied by Adam Horowitz's Twitter feed and The Futon Critic. | This tweet is not confirmation that episode 77 will air on December 14, 2014, becasue the text does not state that, therefore it is specualtion. Currently The Futon Critic list an episode of Once Upon a Time airing March 1, 2015, but it does not specify which episode; speculation. It does not matter how big the leap, it's still a leap. If anyone has any verifiable sources stating the airing dates of the undated installments, please provide one. Until then, the episodes in question must remain without a date. Cheers, LLArrow (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The Futon Critic and Adam himself (via his Twitter feed) ARE legitimate sources as far as episode airdates go, but if you're going to bar 'speculative dating', the December 7th airdate should probably be removed as well.DigificWriter (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * They have only stated the dates, not which episodes air on those dates. As for the December 7th date, please actually look at the futon source, it actually already states that "Shattered Sight" will air on the 7th. As for the speculation, while it is likely that the the next two episodes will air on the dates provided by futon and Adam, there is no guarantee that they will, as such they were removed. However the winter finale and spring premiere are mentioned to be confirmed in the Development section so the information is in the article anyways.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 21:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Recently | this tweet has been added to the article once again, stating that it is conformation that episode 412/413 will air on March 1, 2015. Even though the jump is the size of a tadpole it is, nevertheless, a jump. We can't decide for ourselves that episode 412/413 is the episode that will air on March 1, 2015. However | The Futon Critic has the production code, for the episode airing on March 1, listed as "(412)", so I added that information here, but it has been reverted. Other editors, please discuss your opinion on whether or not The Futon Critic source is in fact thoroughly verifiable, but the other source, along with its info, must be removed. Thank you and cheers, LLArrow (talk) 07:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The tweet was added because it's not a speculation anymore. The creator of the show states clearly when the mid season finale will be and when the show will return. Since now Futon has been updated and lists that "Heroes and Villains" will air on the date of the mid season finale, it's clear that the next episode will be the show's return. Tweets from the creators (verified accounts) were always been used as reliable source. Please do not remove the date again. Thank you TeamGale 08:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Re-added The Futon Critic source in a preemptive move, as this looks to be an issue that will not be without edit warring. | Adam Horowitz's tweet IS NOT confirmation that episode 412/413 will air on March 1, 2015; it is simply confirmation that AN episode of the series will air at that time. As far as I'm concerned The Futon Critics info is efficiently verifiable. Cheers, LLArrow (talk) 08:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Individual Episode Numbering Citations
I've already started doing this (for StM, Fall, and Shattered Sight), but I think it's a good idea to include individual numbering citations for each episode going forward in order to hopefully discourage the kind of disruptive editing that's become an issue of late.DigificWriter (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Smash the Mirror - Part 2
Okay, a two hour episode that was announced followed by the immediate announcement of an additional episode order, I think we should leave it as it is for now until either the ratings are released and see if they are split in two or wait until the end of the season and see how many episodes have different titles, if it is indeed 23 then we'll leave Smash the Mirror as 1 if it is 22 titled episodes then we will expand Smash the Mirror into 2 episodes. Does that sound fair to everyone?

If 22 titled episodes are released we split or if the ratings come in for each half separately, if the ratings come in as one thing and there are 23 titled episodes then we will leave it. Hopefully this will stop the edit war between everyone who all have different ideas on what counts as 1 episode and what counts as 2 episodes. Or we could look for a source that says that Smash the Mirror part 2 is indeed the additional episode ordered. I don't know.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 15:48, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I personally don't understand why all this edit war. Adam Horowitz's tweet is clear...or maybe I understand it wrong? The second half of the episode is an addition to the 22 episodes, which means 22 + 1 episode...which means Part two is a whole new episode just with the same title! But because the additional episode was aired as a double special, the date for the mid season finale does not change! I really can't understand all the confusion and people reverting it back to be one episode when it's not. Horowitz wanted to clarify that despite TWO episodes will air the same day, there won't be any changes to the future dates and the mid season finale simply because the extra episode was an addition. TeamGale 16:58, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The airdates were removed because they were speculation that they would be those episodes, the edit war is over people interpriting whether or no Smash the Mirror counts as two separate episodes or not. Some people believe that it is 1 episode, thus their is an extra episode else where while the other half of the equation believe it to be two episodes. there exsits the problem, everyone is okay with the mid-season dates. (See above for why they were removed)-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 17:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you but I am not talking about the dates. I am talking about "Smash the Mirror" clearly being two episodes. There was an edit war over this that is totally not understandable. I agree with the dates being removed since there are no sources, even though the speculation is probably right. But without sources people should not add them. And as I see below, ABC makes it clear as well even though the tweet was clear since the beginning. I hope now people will stop merging the episode as one. TeamGale 18:52, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

ABC.Com has settled the Smash the Mirror issue
ABC.Com has just settled the issue of whether or not Smash the Mirror is one episode or two once and for all.


 * And new episode also call S04E09? So what now? Or simply you can accept when you're wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sedflash (talk • contribs) 07:42, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Not only did they recap the episode in two halves, they've now released it for streaming playback in two halves, as you can see here: http://abc.go.com/shows/once-upon-a-time DigificWriter (talk) 16:39, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 17:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Since they are two separate episodes now, should the two parts not have their own rows, as shown in this edit? Given that the ABC has identified them as two separate episodes. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 00:56, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I believe they should...each episode has to have their own row. TeamGale 01:11, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Smash the Mirror P2 having a separate row in the episode table is, at the end of the day, merely an aesthetic thing. Leaving it as it is now actually makes the article mirror the way that the Star Trek wiki Memory Alpha lists the various double-length episodes that were aired across the 5 seasons in that franchise.38.73.141.31 (talk) 02:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I did this with AHS three years ago (see episodes 4 & 5). Granted they are split between two weeks, but it is acceptable to list it as split, in my opinion, with the main episode article as its link. —  Wylie pedia  05:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Revisit
It appears as if we need to revisit this. is adamant on keeping the episode as one part. After leaving a message on their talk page to visit this talk page, I was left with a rather rude reply on my own talk page, without coming here to talk about an already-agreed-upon topic. After this user continued to add that it was one episode, Nori4ka continued on with multiple edits (,, , ]). Anther user's view on this would be great. Thank you. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 07:09, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This shouldn't be revisited. It was agreed by the consensus above and was supported by various sources which were also added to the article. The editors who have never edited this page before they began reverting Smash the Mirror to one episode obviously don't look at the edit summaries or at the talk page as they are clearly showing complete disregard to them both. And when we warn them on their talk page they become moddy and accuse us of going against the sources and that we may get banned for edit warring.
 * Also I have requestd that the page be talk | history | links | watch | logs | views)|semi-protected for longer than the two days it was protected for previously for the exact same reason.
 * Does anyone else think that these accounts may all be one person though? Its weird that Nori4ka is brand new, the only other edit made before by Sedflash was made in 2008. The IP could very easily be a public one or an alternating one as it is not entirely obvious what he edits according to his Contributions to Wikipedia. They have all clearly broken the WP:3RR so it may be time to report them to an administrator.-- Ditto51  ( My Talk Page ) 07:51, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean to be rude. I'm kind of new here and don't completely aware of so excuse me if i did something wrong and didn't know there was discussion. Sorry i didn't saw it right away. This is my account, not Sedflash. He is a different user. I just waned to correct page, because this isn't right for me. As you can see from ABC site http://abc.go.com/shows/once-upon-a-time/episode-guide/ episode that was upload today is 04x09 "Fall" & from the picture of the script for episode 9 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzr2kG8IEAEJA7a.jpg tweeted by the series writer and producer Adam Horowitz the name is "Fall" and the episode number is 9. Episode 8 was just longer than usual, not two episodes! That was bonus time from ABC. After tittle for 04x09 Adam Horowitz tweeted pictures for other episodes scripts: 04x10 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0fQroXCEAAiDcH.jpg:large 04x11 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1Y18i3CQAAtQsT.jpg:large 04x12 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2QrG0NIQAAcGHz.jpg:large 04x13 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3ZHruJIIAAnAVT.jpg:large The last tweet is from 26 november, so obviously there is no change to the numbers. I understand what you are talking about, but i think we should follow the right order of the episodes. If you don't agree let things as they were, i won't change it anymore.Nori4ka(talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:19, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We've been told there is an extra episode, so for now this appears to be right, but I think that if we leave it as it is for now then it won't hurt anyone, and then if there is indeed another episode in the next half then we can change it to be one episode. But for now I'd say leave it like it is. And then change it if need be. Does that seem fair? If we change it now it may just be changed again next year. If we don't change it now it may be changed next year anyway when the rest of the episodes are revealed. For now I think it can be left as it is.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 08:58, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That page has not yet been updated, which is why it lists both StM P2 and Fall as being episode 409. The front page of the OUaT section of the website, as well as the official recap page for Fall, correctly list it as episode 410.DigificWriter (talk) 12:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't remember where I put this or who I was talking to as it could have been either of you, but the reason why Adam's images may not have been updated may be because the cover may have been printed before and someone simply overlooked it, or more than likely, the writing and acting team consider them one because they would have been filmed one after another with some scenes possible jumbled up as it was a two parter.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 12:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, if these episodes had been aired a week a part would we still be having this debate? Or would everyone accept them as two separate episodes. Its no different from the season 3 finale, the only real difference is that they are part 1 and part 2.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 12:57, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I have gone to the official OUaT Facebook page and asked for some clarification on this issue once and for all on account of the pages for StM P1 and P2 still carrying the correct episode numbers (408 and 409, respectively) across all sections of the official ABC website.DigificWriter (talk) 13:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * That may give clarification for you, but it won't be usable on this page, due to the fact that it'll be original research and unable to be referenced - how do you reference a personal message? AlexTheWhovian (talk) 13:09, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I posted my query as a public post on the page's Timeline, so any reply I get will probably be public as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DigificWriter (talk • contribs) 13:15, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I am pretty sure that doing that is also not aloud per Wikipedia guidelines, I can't remember where but I remember seeing that somewhere. It can be used to settle the argument on the talk page though...__ Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 15:39, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok. I'm hoping something will be sorted out on the official site, then, because, as of this moment, nothing has changed about the way Smash the Mirror is represented, so it's simply an issue of numbering as far as "Fall" is concerned (as noted, it was represented correctly initially and does still have a 410 code in the "Latest Episodes" section).DigificWriter (talk) 18:15, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Jane Espenson also confirmed episodes titles https://twitter.com/JaneEspenson/status/539287156754501633 & ABC here http://abc.go.com/shows/once-upon-a-time/episode-guide/season-04/409-fall Maybe for some reason ABC couldn't upload 04x08 part 2 on the site with that name and that's why they wrote the name as 04x09, but tonight they uploaded the new episode with the correct name and number. As you can hear in the promo for 04x10 narrator says "just one episode remains until winter finale" and last year winter finale was 04x11. I think they will continue this example & pretty sure they already say that in interview. It's your desicion to make how you will continue to write episode numbers, it's pointless for me to keep show the facts. Best Wishes to all. Nori4ka (talk) 11:20 pm, 1 December 2014 — Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * What does next week being the winter finale have to do with anything? You are making assumptions. Like the dates for the episodes were initially assumed, or how the number of episodes were originally assumed to be 22. You are taking the sources and then making inferences and assumptions off of the sources and not actually taking what they say. Also as I stated above, asking someone on social media like that, no matter how visible it is to the world, is not a valid source on Wikipedia.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 21:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Espenson's Tweet doesn't invalidate what ABC did anyway, as what she said IS true. StM was written, produced, and initially aired as a single episode, but is very clearly two completely separate episodes. The only reason there's even a lingering issue with this whole situation is because someone on the official ABC site is sending mixed messages vis a vis the Episode Numbering for "Fall".DigificWriter (talk) 21:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Well my assumptions was right http://i57.tinypic.com/2lm40ic.png This is the answer i got from ABC. There is no functionality that allows episode 8 part 2 to be uploaded with that name so they change it to 9, but technically (as she said) episode 9 is "Fall" and as i already said they upload it the way it have to be yesterday http://i60.tinypic.com/2nth3b6.png with the corect name and number, but obviuosly can't change episode 8 part 2 name, so both stay as 04x09. The next episode that will be uploaded to the site logicaly will be 04x10, not 04x11. Nori4ka (talk) 01:36, 2 December 2014
 * We'll see what they do with the DVD/Blu-ray release, but something tells me that StM P2 will be listed as episode 9, Fall will be listed as episode 10, and so on. What now needs to be decided is whether the Wiki community wants to follow what will most likely be the DVD order or follow Production Order. Personally, I favor leaving things as they are.DigificWriter (talk) 03:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Then let's do that. I originally thought that "Smash the Mirror" was one gigantic episode, but apparently, the 2nd part constitutes the "extra episode" ordered for Season 4. There's plenty of proof for this as well. Although it's important to indicate how closely associated both parts are as separate episodes, they should be listed separately, since they are officially 2 separate episodes. LightandDark2000 (talk) 03:18, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought we'd decided to leave things as they were vis a vis StM, Fall, etc., but the individual articles for StM and Fall are back to being listed as episodes 8 (both parts of StM) and 9 (Fall). — Preceding unsigned comment added by DigificWriter (talk • contribs) 17:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait. Since when? They should all be marked as the same for consistency, so that should defiantly be changed to StM as 8 and 9 and Fall as 10. We can't have both on here.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 09:22, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * We need to follow the DVD/Blu-ray order, not the Production Code order, as that can be seriously messed up. Now, I don't know when both parts of Smash the Mirror were listed as one full episode online, but given everything that we have sourced, they should remain listed as two separate episodes (with the exception of the episodes' individual article). LightandDark2000 (talk) 11:16, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant on the indivual pages, StM is apparently said to just be episode 8 and not both. But one page for both parts is fine.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 11:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I went back and put the individual episode articles to how they'd been with StM as 8/9 and Fall as 10, so hopefully the situation will hold this time.DigificWriter (talk) 16:32, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Somebody changed it again, so I'm going to go undo it again.DigificWriter (talk) 07:01, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I have put in a page protection request for both pages at . Hopefully they will be protected long enough for the IPs to lose interest in them.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 11:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Just as an aside, the official ABC site is back to having Fall labeled as episode 410 across the board in spite of the statement they gave earlier, so it was the right call to leave things as they'd been before all the confusion re-erupted.DigificWriter (talk) 19:07, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course they did. The "episode guide" page was just not updated because the video of the episode had not been published yet on the site when all the "confusion" started. It was clear all along that "Fall" was the 10th episode. Before the update, ABC was listing both "Smash the Mirror - Part 2" and "Fall" as episodes No9 on the same page but some people were preferring to see only what fitted them and refuse to hear. Let's hope we won't have to come back to this issue again. TeamGale 20:17, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, the situation is/was a bit more complicated than that, as evidenced by the statement they gave that can be seen above (as posted by Nori4ka), but it's much more organic - and far less confusing - for the episodes to be numbered the way that they now are, as opposed to how they had been initially.DigificWriter (talk) 21:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I saw that message but a private message cannot be used. And since ABC itself publishes the episodes with those specific numbers on their official website, nothing can change it imo no matter what the reason is. TeamGale 21:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm a little late to this discussion, but the creator of the series called it 2 episodes. See his twitter response here to someone. https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/543100188751982592 86.15.195.205 (talk) 20:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that but personally, that's what I am saying since my very first comment about this subject. "Smash the mirror" is two episodes. Private messages from ABC via mail don't count as a reliable source. I am not saying that the person who posted the pictures is lying but, with internet and technology everything can be created and look like it's real. As long as something is not posted in public, is not a source. And since ABC posts public in their website that "Smash the Mirror" is two episodes, is two episodes, period. The creator of the show was clear about the two episodes since his very first tweet about it, don't understand why people were insisting merging it as one. I am more than sure they wouldn't do it if the episodes didn't air in the same day. TeamGale 01:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

WRONG NUMERATION OF EPISODES!!!!
s04e08 "Smash the Mirror" is 2-hours one episode http://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/515195358326972417

Then we have episode 4x09 "Fall" http://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/520999807285219329

4x10 "Shattered Sight" http://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/524617329913511936

and finally 4x11 "Heroes and Villains" http://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/528669320709042176

So "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" will be epsode 4x12!!! http://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/532598052318904321

Please, correct!
 * The only thing wrong is your objection to the way things are numbered (which is an issue that has been satisfactorily and unequivocally resolved). The producers are operating under Production Code (which lists Episodes 4x08 and 4x09 - Smash the Mirror, Parts 1 and 2, respectively - as a single episode because that is the way in which it was shot, and subsequently lists the remaining episodes as 4x09, 4x10, 4x11, 4x12, etc. as such because that's how they were shot), but ABC and ABC.Com have posted the correct Airing Numbers for the season as it will appear on the eventual home media release. We also have confirmation from Adam via Twitter that Smash the Mirror is in fact two episodes even though it was shot as one.

So, no, the current numbering will not be corrected since it's already correct.DigificWriter (talk) 19:11, 10 January 2015 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed to death already but here is the creators confirmation that it was two episodes. https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/543100188751982592 Also ABC ordered an additional episode which is why this episode became a two episode story, Season 4 has 23 episodes. The back half of Season 4 will be 11 episodes. Making the total this season 23 episodes. 86.15.195.205 (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Listing the episodes by Production Code as well as by Airing Order on the main article page
After injecting myself back into a conversation on another Wiki concerning how to most accurately present information about Season 4 and its contents, including Smash the Mirror, it occurred to me that it might be prudent to add an additional field to the main article's Episodes table for the purpose of chronicling each episode by its Production Code as well as by official Airing Order. I'm not sure how difficult this would be to achieve, but figured that I'd venture the suggestion nonetheless.DigificWriter (talk) 16:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no idea how that would work. Have any of the futon sources or press releases actually given a production number? We can't just make it up...-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 17:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The Production Codes - which are listed on the script covers that Adam tweets out - are already being listed on the articles for each individual episode, so it would just be a matter of following the template from the site's various Star Trek articles and adding a 'Production code' field to the table in the main article.DigificWriter (talk) 18:08, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * If they exsit and are easy to find then I say go ahead and add them. It would clear up the conclusion and help prevent any newcomers from restarting the debate all over again.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 19:01, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I tried to add a new column to the table, but can't figure out how to get the contents of that new column to line up where they're supposed to, so somebody with more knowledge of Wikipedia coding is going to have to do the setup.DigificWriter (talk) 19:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ I went on and added the Production Codes based on those given to the episodes' articles. Hope they are OK. If there are sources for episodes that haven't aired yet you can add them. TeamGale (talk) 21:41, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * And what of the absolute wreck you've given to the List of Once Upon a Time episodes page, by the transcluded columns now being different width, and not matching up with previous seasons? If you're going to add Production Codes to one season, add them to all. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 02:29, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Alex is absolutely right. Editors, please be thorough with your actions. Cheers, LLArrow (talk) 04:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ The Production code field and accompanying data has been added to the main articles for Seasons 1, 2, and 3.DigificWriter (talk) 17:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Your sources? And if the main reason for this is to cease arguments over "Smash the Mirror", I believe that the note by the article title already does that... Not that I'm against the additional column, just covering all bases. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 18:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Episode screenshots from Adam-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 19:06, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The only screenshots I'm seeing are for future episodes... AlexTheWhovian (talk)
 * At least for this and last season he released images on his twitter with the code on them. The ones that are sourced on the page are those which haven't been released yet as the source is strangely removed upon the airing of the episode. Why is that?-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 20:17, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Weekly viewership rank
If by the end of the season, no further episodes have ranked high enough to be reported, can the column be removed and a mention be placed on the premiere episode page instead? I don't see the use of having a column with potentially 22 N/As instead of numbers. I'm saying leave as is for now and after Episode 23 decide? It simply isn't rating high enough in the viewers to be reported, despite having a decent 18-49 that will get it a Season 5(And likely 6). 86.15.195.205 (talk) 21:56, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I would say yes but the first episode of the season has the ranking so I think it should stay, unless someone thinks that it would be better in prose.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 23:30, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * What you have described is the course of action that I took with Constantine ratings. I personally find it neater to remove columns that are not required, but keep what information exists as regular text. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 01:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Regardless I'm all for it, we should revisit this after Episode 23s full numbers are out, and if still applicable a change should be made. I thought I would leave this topic open for plenty of time for discussion. 86.15.195.205 (talk) 20:15, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Summary lengths
I kind of agree that the Season page should still have a proper summary regardless of their being an episode page, I would like to direct people to how they do things at the Walking Dead season pages for example. I feel that having a minimalistic summary because an episode page exists is a bit presumptuous as you're assuming people will click on each episode to get a full summary. I know I personally don't bother with episode pages as a reader, nor do I edit them as an editor. I think something should be there to cater to everyone reading the page. 86.15.195.205 (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed. MOS:TV states nothing about requiring the summary on the season page to only be a few dozen words if episode articles exist - these summaries can be up to 200 words, or up to 350 for complex story lines. The plot summary for the episode page would be classified as further reading, and can be as large as it wants. AlexTheWhovian (talk) 23:23, 8 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree too. Someone must be able to read a complete summary (up to 200 words as per rules of WP) for every episode in the list of the episodes and understand what the episode is about. Just a line to describe an episode is not enough and not everyone goes to the separated episodes' pages to read the summaries. Just because the separated articles exists doesn't mean anything. Some of the summaries might be too long, I agree with that, but not cutting everything out is a solution. TeamGale (talk) 00:14, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Miranda being removed
Since Miranda did not have an actress linked to her, is it right to remove her and change her for Young Ursla?-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 08:18, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Ratings
Why is no one updating the Live +7 numbers now? I know I contributed significantly prior to the Frozen arc ending there, but as the page is protected I can't do it now. If anyone feels like updating, I would suggest copy pasting the applicable reference links from the Empire ratings table after adding the data. 86.15.195.205 (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Talk:Once Upon a Time (season 4)/Archive 1 Alex &#124; The &#124; Whovian  21:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * That was about the Weekly viewership column in the middle of the table, not about the live+7 results which need to be added at some point.-- Ditto51 ( My Talk Page ) 23:14, 23 March 2015 (UTC)