Talk:Open-mid central unrounded vowel

Received Pronunciation
Now this article contradicts mid central vowel as it says the vowel of bird is higher than the open-mid range. The source used for that is a recent article in the Journal of the IPA. Shall we remove it here? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It doesnt really contradict that article because of two things. (1) There is more than one variety of RP. The "refined" RP or "upper-crust" RP has a lower vowel that is perhaps as low as (Jones says that this is the vowel that Henry Sweet had). Other varieties of RP have a higher vowel that is close to mid-central (Jones says that this is what his vowel is and he transcribes it as ), which, I presume, is what the IPA Journal is referring to. (2) The other thing, which is perhaps closer to a contradiction, is that  is often used to transcribe mid-central vowels in Bert, etc. in addition to being used to transcribe the lower  in refined RP and a vowel that is higher than mid-central. Using  = mid-central is, of course, perfectly acceptible, since  is defined as a vowel with no definite value (even though according to its placement in the IPA chart it is implicitly vaguely central). Using  = mid-central has also been a tradition even though many have known that there is no difference in quality between the vowel in stressed Bert and unstressed but for many RP speakers.


 * Maybe all this should be mentioned? Also, maybe it should be mentioned that was originally (vaguely) defined as a "variant" of  (to be used when another central vowel was needed) and that this was only changed in the three years following the 1989 revision of the IPA. – ishwar   (speak)  22:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Jones (1917)? There have definitely been vocalic changes in RP since then (including the fronting and lowering of  and lowing of the vowel in land to ).  See Image:RP vowel chart (monophthongs).gif


 * We've put prose about and its transcription conventions, I don't see any harm in doing so for this vowel.  If there is variance between "Conservative", "General", and "Advanced" (the distinction our article on RP makes) then we might want to be specific about that in the table.  Does Ladefoged (1993) clarify which variant? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  22:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, there are different varieties of RP; it's not a monolithic thing. The refined/upper-crust/conservative RP with its lower is reported by Jones (which is older, yes, but updated after 1917) and also by Gimson starting from the 1960s and Wells (1982). Wells defines upper-crust RP as essentially being spoken by people of rather wealthy social groups, Gimson defines conservative RP as being of older generation of certain professions and social groups, Gimson's later term refined RP is defined as of upper-class families or of professions associated with upper-class families. Gimson says that Refined RP has been becoming more a minority variant but was more common earlier.


 * More on Gimson's description: has variants ranging from open-mid to close-mid. General RP  is between close-mid and open-mid and is of similar quality to  except for the length difference; Refined RP  is "somewhat below open-mid" and is rather close the position of General RP  (Gimson obviously differs here from Roach's IPA Journal description, Gimson says that Refined RP has a fully back  where General RP has a centralized vowel).


 * With respect to the other vowels you mention, Refined RP (according to Gimson) has =  (slightly backed from central position, mid-way between mid-open & open, in contrast to General RP's more forward and slightly lower vowel except for the more recent General RP speakers who have started retracting their vowel) and Refined RP  =   (almost as high as cardinal, diphthongized, and with pharyngealization, elsewhere he writes this phonetically as  (which is how Wells transcribes it), in contrast to General RP's lower vowel and more recent General RP's even lower vowel).


 * Ladefoged (in the 3rd edition) doesnt distinguish between different varieties of RP, and, in fact, he generally uses the term British English. He merely says that is mid-low central in British and American English with some varieties of British English having a vowel that is a little lower, which is how it contrasts with the relatively higher central vowel . It is obvious that he is referring to Gimson's General RP and Wells' Mainstrain RP and not Gimson's Refined/Conservative RP & Wells' U-RP. – ishwar   (speak)  04:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I checked out Jones' 1st edition and a later edition published in the 1940s or 1950s (I forget which now). Both of these have a different description of than what appears in the 1972 edition. So, I wouldnt consider the 1972 edition to be out-date necessarily as you seem to apply above. Jones is just describing a different accent of RP which has a lower vowel for  (as also reported by Gimson and Wells). Anyway, Jones puts the mid central vowel (which is the way he says this vowel) in his main description — the lower vowel (which Sweet had) is mentioned in a footnote.


 * I also looked up Roach's IPA Journal article and an intro book of his. The IPA article doesnt mention variation in RP and defines RP (from memory) as essentially the language of southern middleclass to upperclass folk (he says something better than this but I forget — but it is not as precise as Wells or Gimson). And the position of the vowel is as it appears in Image:RP vowel chart (monophthongs).gif, namely mid-central. However, in his book English phonetics and phonology: A practical course (3rd ed.) (2000), he positions being central but between exactly mid and open-mid (and a little closer to the open-mid line). So, from this diagram one may view  as being slightly lower than schwa (if you consider schwa to be essentially a mid-central vowel, which is problematic given its unstressed reduced nature). And he writes "Perhaps the only case where a long and short vowel are closely similar in quality is that of  and ; but  is a special case, as we shall see later. This also suggests that they are slightly different (and that it is problematic to compare them). On another note, his positioning of  is slightly more forward compared to Image:RP vowel chart (monophthongs).gif. Anyway, perhaps the IPA Journal article is a bit broader than his more narrowly phonetic charts in his textbook.


 * Consulting another book, Catford's 1977 Fundamental problems in phonetics, is described as being exactly open-mid as a realization of a "common variety of English RP vowel in bird" (perhaps in a somewhat idealized perspective because he is discussing cardinal vowels in this section). On the next page, Catford has a diagram with the label "Some English vowels in a variety of RP" which plots  similarly to Roach's textbook as between mid and open-mid (but his is slightly higher than Roach's having an equal distance from mid and open-mid).


 * Anyway, to conclude, I think that the non-upper crust RP vowel in bird is better listed on this page (rather than on the mid-central page) and better transcribed with . Using that symbol would be following tradition as well as Roach (2000) and Catford (1977). Then, you can footnote a detail that it may be higher varying toward mid-central (noting that Roach 2004, Jones 1972, Gimson, and Wells report it as mid; that Roach 2000 and Catford 1977 report it as raised open-mid; and that Jones 1972 reports it as possibly being "a shade" higher than mid). Finally, you can have a second footnote which explains that the upper crust RP has a corresponding realization (as noted by Jones 1972, Wells, and Gimson). – ishwar   (speak)  05:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  08:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Occurence in Vietnamese
According to Vietnamese_phonology this vowel is found in Vietnamese too - could someone add an example to the table? Lfh (talk) 10:28, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

The vowel of dress in Northern Cities Vowel Shift
Some dialects of American English, like my own, have between front and central —  or  — or even completely central. It seems that this is a feature of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. I'll add this to the table, but regrettably I don't have a source to cite for it, so could someone else add one? — Eru·tuon 20:20, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It is sourced as being near-open central, but I suppose that's for speakers with the extreme variety of NCVS. Personally, I have nothing against your edit. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 16:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

If ɜ is used only in the lower-crust RP pronunciation of "bird," what do most Americans use instead?
I need some phonetic help. Dictionary.com transcribes "purse" and bird" in IPA with /ɜr/, but this Wikipedia article implies that /ɜ/ is not used by Americans. Can someone tell me how to transcribe the vowel as pronounced in General American? DBlomgren (talk) 05:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
 * First, see phoneme and allophone. A narrow transcription of the American pronunciation would be (a rhotacized mid central unrounded vowel),  (a rhotacized close-mid central unrounded vowel),  (syllabic postalveolar approximant) or  (syllabic retroflex approximant), depending on the speaker. I'd say  is probably the most common realization, but I'm not sure. Mr KEBAB (talk) 06:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Tausug
I came to this article from the Wiki article "Tausug language" which lists this sound in its phonology under "Vowels". But when I came to this article, there is no mention of the Tausug language at all, not even in the examples of languages that use the sound. For the sake of consistency between the two articles, can Tausug be added to the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.201.138.214 (talk) 07:16, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Relevant discussion at Talk:Mid central vowel
--mach &#x1f648;&#x1f649;&#x1f64a; 17:01, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Recent removals of JIPA article
In recent edits, Kbb2 has removed a JIPA article, claiming that its vowel charts are unreliable. These are peer-reviewed articles in a prestigious journal that is relevant to the topic of this article – the best possible kind of reliable source. Any removal of such a source requires hard evidence. We cannot have editors removing reliable sources just because they claim that these sources are unreliable.

@Kbb2: What are your reasons for dismissing this JIPA article? I hope it is more than analogies you perceive with other vowel charts. --mach &#x1f648;&#x1f649;&#x1f64a; 15:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

sound file
The sound file on the article for [ɜ] sounds extremely weird...like the sound of somebody about to puke. Bladesinger46n2 (talk) 15:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)