Talk:Opera buffa/Archive 1

Comments
I have edited the sources section so all the sources are in reverse chronological order. I feel it is easier this way to observe how relevant the sources are, and how reliable they are.

"Ho capito" is sung by Masetto and not Leporello. If you want to give an example of a typical basso buffo aria by Leporello, his Catalog Aria ("Madamina") would be a good one. DoorsAjar 21:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It is sometimes affirmed that in Opera buffa musical content is often simpler, maybe poorer, limited in length and in fantasy, and these would be sufficient reasons not to include it in the higher genres. Nevertheless, the (now) not discussed genius of Mozart didn't miss the chance of giving us a masterpiece (Le nozze di Figaro - in Italian), or perhaps two (with Don Giovanni) and was followed by pretty all the major composers.

I suggest rewriting this paragraph entirely. Discussions about what is a 'higher' genre and what is or is not a 'masterpiece', and whether Mozart is a 'genius' or not, are not encyclopedic. Trying to determine which pieces of Mozart are masterpieces is certainly not encyclopedic. Any objections? Victor Gijsbers 15:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Thought I'd put up a real article here to foil the useless content vandals. Needs a lookover by someone more knowledgeable in such matters. Then again, I learn the most by doing such articles, heck I even learned a little Italian as the opera names were in Italian on the sites I found. Am trying to look up Verdi via search so I can wikify him correctly, but seems to be taking forever so I'll clean up a bit later tonight if it doesn't clear up. Rgamble


 * I put up an alternate article under Comic opera. There doesn't seem to be too much overlap, so I don't see a need to merge. Jeffmatt 08:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to thank Gianfranco for majorly fleshing out the stub making it a very interesting read, and Vicki for copyediting it. Oh and April for finding the link for an Italian phrase. Nice job so far! Rgamble
 * Thank you for reading it - go on with your Italian, there's so much to write about opera! :-)) --Gianfranco

- What is correct: Dramma giocoso, or Dramma giocosa? S.


 * Dramma giocoso. "Dramma" is one of those nouns in Italian that is grammatically masculine in spite of the -a at the end. Thus, the adjective takes the  masculine -o ending. Jeffmatt 08:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
http://listproc.ucdavis.edu/archives/mlist/log0402/0004.html

Referring to this website, which makes claims to Florence Foster Jenkins who was actually the official founder of Opera Buffa, since leading founders of the music such as Mozat-Garden had failed to copyright the style with 'first rights'.

She has certainly made Opera Buffa her own with contentious notes and stretched pitches that create the airy atmosphere composers have lacked when writing for this form of high-brow intellectual opera.

On the basis that composers in Opera Buffa have to achieve a whole range of chromatic chords to outway the low-class diatonic melodies that play havoc with the decibel limits of Opera Buffa's audience.

Due to Florence Foster Jenkins talents in establishing such a concept has led to composers writing such classics like Titty Titty Bang Bang and Mary Popouts. The form has really shot its load in popular culture and its parody nature certainly stir the loins of its higher class listeners.

Though this vandalism should be preserved on the talk page due to its clever use of double entendres. Tmorrisey 04:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion of a merger under 'Comic Opera'
I am strongly against merging this with Comic Opera, A merger would imply that opera buffa is sub-genre of comic opera. I don't agree with this. in my view, opera buffa is a genre but comic opera is merely the qualification of opera by an adjective. (We can substitute long, tragic, boring or whatever for comic.)

My proof of argument would be that comic operas include works like Die Meistersinger and Falstaff all the way across the opera spectrum to Gilbert and Sullivan. Clearly these works do not belong together in a single genre.

How about removing the merger banner?

Kleinzach 13:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree strongly with Kleinzach. Opere buffe, operas comiques, and comic operas are all different entities, and the terms mean different things.


 * Buondelmonte


 * As there have been no dissenting voices on this, i will remove the merger suggestion flag. Thanks. - Kleinzach 16:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above action and am glad to see that Kleinzach has gone ahead.


 * Vivaverdi 23:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm the person who added the merge tag. The problem with the article as it stands is that the only relationship described between this and comic opera is a parenthetical in the intro. This implies that they are the same thing, but does not explain why they have different articles. Can we do one of:
 * Merge the two articles (opera buffa could be a section in comic opera, describing the nature of the relationship clearly)
 * Change both articles to refernece each other more constructively, explaining their relationship.
 * Or, just do the least work by placing the link to each other in a see also section on both.
 * IMHO, those are listed in descending order of value to both topics, but I'm willing to bow to consensus. The fact that this article is linked to from the front page today, and is in the shape that it's in is sort of embarassing.... -Harmil 15:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your message to my user page. Have you also notified Vivaverdi and Buondelmonte ? I don't regard opera buffa and Comic opera as the same thing as I explained above. I'd prefer to have this discussion on the Comic opera page as I think the problem is there not here. How about it? (Meanwhile I have done links between the pages as an interim measure as per your suggestion above.) - Kleinzach 20:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

So what is it?
The article lacks to tell the characteristics that make opera buffa recognizable among other genres of opera. I don't care about its history if I really haven't learned what is it... --euyyn 22:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is an encyclopedia. It is here to provide factual information. I would recommend getting hold of a recording of either Il barbiere di Siviglia or Le nozze di Figaro and having a good listen. Incidentally few of the earlier opera buffa are performed these days. - Kleinzach 15:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to explain better:

- So what's that "Opera Buffa"?

- Look it up in the encyclopaedia.

- Yeah... It's... "El barbero de Sevilla" and "Las bodas de Figaro" and (continue enumerating). And why these? And why no other operas?

- Well... Don't really know... That wouldn't be "factual information"... Maybe some random guy selected them randomly, then selected a name randomly, and...

C'mon... I don't want to know those operas, I'm curious about why there's a subset of all operas called this way --euyyn 16:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a genre. Opera is divided into genre. Other art forms are also divided into genre. See Genre. - Kleinzach 16:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

So you still don't understand what do I want... Let's try to be clearer:

"A genre is a division of a particular form of art according to criteria particular to that form."


 * What criteria is used to divide which operas are opera buffa and which aren't?

"Although most genres are often only vaguely definable."


 * Is opera buffa one of these? If so, we should better state it in the article...

Reading other Opera genres (or related) articles you most often find a definition in the first or second paragraph:

"Comic opera, or light opera, is a genre of opera denoting a sung dramatic work of a light or comic nature, usually with a happy ending, and often employing spoken dialogue interspersed among musical numbers."

"Opera seria is an Italian musical term which refers to the noble and 'serious' style of Italian opera that predominated in Europe from the 1720s to ca 1770."

"Dramma giocoso [...] is the name of a genre of comic operas [...]. A dramma giocoso often has a sentimental or pathetic plot bordering on tragedy, rather than the traditional lighthearted comic plots, and it is thus situated midway between the opera seria and opera buffa."

"Grand Opera is a style of opera characterized by grandiose scale. Heroic and historical subjects, large casts, vast orchestras, richly detailed sets, sumptuous costumes and spectacular scenic effects were all features of this genre [...] Other characteristics include...

"Opéra comique is a French style of opera that is a partial counterpart to the Italian opera buffa. Unlike opera buffa however, opéra comique generally uses spoken dialogue instead of recitative.

"Semi-opera is an early form of opera. [...] Semi-operas were performed with singing, speaking and dancing roles. When music was written, it was usually for moments in the play immediately following either love scenes or those concerning the supernatural."

"Ballad operas (comic operas) are popular 18th century English operas. They are less serious and are set to popular, traditional tunes."

"The Savoy Operas are a series of comic operas or operettas written by Gilbert and Sullivan. Strictly speaking, the term refers only to those whose first run or part thereof occurred at the Savoy Theatre in London (those from Patience onwards); in practice, the term is used more generally to refer to all the operas written by librettist W. S. Gilbert and composer Arthur Sullivan, and produced by Richard D'Oyly Carte"


 * You see? Even odd characteristics, like being a term used only for certain operas writen by a concrete artist, can serve to actually define the object of the article.

In comparison, our article has only:

"Opera buffa (a form of comic opera), also known as [...], is a genre of opera." Followed by its history.

Saying it is a genre of opera is only a categorization, not a definition. We need to state what and how binds these operas together to form a genre.

Maybe we could summarize the second section of the article (Popularity as a goal) to extract a definition from it. --euyyn 14:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that it is not one of our better-written articles. While most opera genres admit of some ambiguity, all of the other genre articles try to define the form in the first sentence or two. This one doesn't. The whole article is meandering and unfocused. Marc Shepherd 16:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed; I've had a go at the lead and replaced the expand template with cleanup. Sparafucil 01:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The beginnings of Opera Buffa
Meladina has added a section about the Florentine Stradella's Il Trespolo tutore being the first opera buffa. I wonder if this is true. Carolyn Gianturco (Grove) writes " Il Trespolo tutore is a true comedy . . .it belongs to the tradition of of Tuscan comic plays and operas so popular in the mid-17th century". Weiss/Budden (Grove) writing about Opera Buffa, while mentioning Tuscan comic works, nevertheless is clear that opera buffa was born in Naples: "It was in Naples that a new type of comic opera had its beginnings . . . .The earliest known example is La Cilla . . .first performed in 1706. - Kleinzach 10:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The information (practically with no change) was taken from The Concise Oxford History of Music by Gerald Abraham 1975, paperback 1985 p.361. However, it would be probably better to qualify this as a predecessor of opera buffa. (meladina 10:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC))


 * Opera genres are tricky. (This is why I am unhappy about all the inaccuracies - quite apart from the duplication - on the Comic opera page etc.) In this case it is difficult to credit a Tuscan opera with being the first OB, if we also say that OB was born in Naples. Perhaps it would be better to speculate on the influence of Tuscan opera on Neapolitan OB, and cut the reference to Il Trespolo tutore? - Kleinzach 11:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no objection. Please do as you think best. (meladina 12:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC))


 * I've removed it but we need to work in an explanation of antecedents including Tuscan opera. A lot of this article needs rewriting of course. It's not up to standard. - Kleinzach 12:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

General, sweeping edits
Hello guys. I'm rather new at this Wiki editing, but I noticed that much of this article was rather confusing and needlessly wordy. I've just edited some of the "History" subsection to make it more direct. My changes would be rather dramatic, but I don't want to be too aggressive without the approval of the Opera Buffa community here.

My proposal would be to go through on Sunday, and make big changes to most of the sentence structure throughout the article, and I would probably delete about 1/4 or 1/3 of the sentences here, since I don't think that they're adding much to the article. I'll post again to this Talk page with some examples if you would prefer that. Later in the week, I'll do some research into Grove and whatnot to try and add some more content back in.

Is this cool with everybody?

Thanks! With a little work, this page will be ship-shape in no time. Jdauermann 09:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)Jdauermann


 * Your edits looked pretty good to me. Marc Shepherd 13:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Removing the wordiness of this text is certainly a step in the right direction. If you can also review the content with Grove, that will be excellent. - Kleinzach 14:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Spurious information added by 143.117.143.182
Spurious information has been added by a user using the IP 143.117.143.182. This is the passage added:

''Leading composers include, Mozart, Rossini and Bizet but many others made a significant contribution to the genre and provided great influence for these composers; Mozart in particular. These include, Claudio Goffenberg, Heinz Goering and Lucio Allapenzio. The librettist Alfonso Madrigali was a close friend of Mozart and helped him to establish the opera buffa style to its full dramatic potential. He favoured librettos with somewhat lewd and erotic texts, and was highly accomplished at integrating his favourite themes into the operas with the utmost subtlety. For example, in Act two of Le Nozze di Figaro, Mozart and Madrigali collaborated to ensure that the homosexual tendencies of the protagonist did not become obvious throughout. Skills like this helped to establish Mozart as the principal opera buffa composer of the nineteenth century.''

I am deleting it now. - Kleinzach 23:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Cutting sections on differences with previous works, etc
Cut large sections from the "popularity as goal" section which were quite wrong. Music after Gregorian chant was all formal and rigid? Sweeping! Opera buffa is all about comic scenes? (Ah, Don Giovanni that barrel of laughs from start to finish). I would encourage anyone who wants to do work on this page to delete and start anew -- despite many positive contributions from good editors, it doesn't make a coherent argument, nor is it based on scholarship and a wide historical vantage point. I think it would be much easier to start over than try to work around the prose and structure that is already there. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 04:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Buffoon
I remove this from the intro: "The term is derived from the English word buffoon. " because I couldnt open the reference link and also because the OED gives fr. Bouffon as the source of the English word (and the Petit Robert says the French word came from Italy in 1530), rather than the other way round.

btw, I also hope to be forgiven for chopping this sentence after failed attempts to retranslate: "The adaptation of music to be more accessible to a common audience resulted in the translation of the premiere performance type of the time." Sparafucil (talk) 08:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)