Talk:Opera in German/Archive 1

Through Composed Style
What does through-composed style mean? Orbicle 22:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Rescue
What's a 'resuce'?--darklilac 20:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Could it be "rescue"? Orbicle 23:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Improvement Suggestions
It seems to me like this page is in desperate need of improvement. A more thorough listing of German Opera composers would be great, as well as some sources to cite. Some more definitive words on german operatic culture would also be great. I'll poke around on German wikipedia to see if they have a better page I can translate. Also, I'll go to the German Culture page and see if there are any opera experts there who can help out with the page. Let's bring this article up to par. So, here's my attempt at a to do list for this article. As a side note or possibility, Wagner could deserve his own section, since he did kind of redefine German Opera... Let me know what you think. Xeinart 04:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Add a section about how German Opera differs from other the opera of other countries
 * 2) Correct information about Dafne. To my knowledge, Dafne was an Italian opera by Peri. The Opera being thought of is "Daphne". The Daphne of Schuetz should not be confused the Daphne of Strauss.
 * 3) Reorganize the Baroque Era section into coherant paragraphs. Right now, it's just a blob.
 * 4) Alter information in the Baroque Era section such that we have a bit about the major players and thier most famous pieces, with links to their respective pages.
 * 5) Alter information in Baroque Era section such that there is something about how German Opera changed during the Baroque Era
 * 6) Eliminate the Mozart and After section, replacing it with a section on Rococo, a section on Romantic, and a section on Post-Romantic Opera.
 * 7) Order the information in these in coherant paragraphs, dealing with:
 * 8) The major players and their most famous works, including appropriate links.
 * 9) How the German Style of Opera changed during these eras.
 * 10) Add information about the major germanic opera houses, I.E. Wienna, Berlin, etc...


 * This article has been marked out for major revision and I've already begun to overhaul it, but these things take time and my work has only reached as far as Keiser. The information about Schuetz's "Dafne" (the spelling given in both "The Viking Opera Guide" and "The Oxford Illustrated History of Opera") in the article is quite correct (I will be adding detailed references to the sources used). The other things will follow in due course, but Rome wasn't built in a day. By the end of 2006, I hope this article will show vast improvements.--Folantin 08:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I envisaged the revised article sections on the history of German opera as follows:
 * Baroque era (will finish myself soon).
 * Classical era: Mozart and Beethoven
 * Weber and German Romantic Opera
 * Wagner (section all to himself)
 * The Late Romantic Era (primarily Richard Strauss, but also Zemlinsky, Schreker et al.)
 * Dodecaphonic/Second Viennese School or whatever you want to call it (i.e. Schoenberg and, especially, Berg)
 * Between the Wars (Hindemith, Busoni, the Krolloper, Weill, the impact of the Third Reich)
 * Post-war (Henze and so on)
 * If you want to start work on any of those sections then go ahead (although I'd rather keep the Baroque era for myself).--Folantin 10:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * My mind's a bit elsewhere just now, but I'll point out that according to Kelling, the author of some German Culture Textbooks, it's Daphne. The German wikipedia also has it as Daphne. I think the issue here is English spelling versus German spelling, and since your sources are Egnlish language and mine are not, I will temporarily defer to you on this one.
 * Also, I think that your list of topics is great. My only catch is that I would like to see something, maybe in the introduction, about how German opera differs from others, for example French opera. I really appreciate you getting to me on this, and I will do my best to edit the article well. I ask you to rather mercilessly edit my additions with the knowledge that I intend on doing the same to yours. Once again, I look forward to working with you and any other collaborators. Xeinart 01:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's simply a case of German spelling versus English spelling. I believe the standard spelling in both modern German and English is "Daphne". The question is how Opitz/Schuetz spelt it and, since both my sources give "Dafne", that's what ought to be here, I think. We could always put "Daphne" after it in parentheses with a link to the relevant Wikipedia article on the Greek myth of Daphne and Apollo.

I agree that the introduction will need expanding. I think we should write the rest of the article first though, then we can come back and give an overview of our findings. It might be a bit difficult to say how German opera as a whole differs from other national styles, given the long history and great variety of German opera. During certain periods, of course, composers tried to make their operas distinctively "German". Weber is a notable example. He developed German Romantic opera in opposition to the Italian opera of Rossini, but he enlisted help from the French tradition of composers such as Méhul and Cherubini to do so.

Sure you can edit my stuff. Bear in mind I have done my research though! There are some issues that still need sorting out here: was Staden's "Seelewig" the first Singspiel, or did the Singspiel genre arise in the 18th century? Another thing is this article will only be a general overview of German operatic history, so we need to keep a sense of proportion and not go into too much detail. On the other hand, if you want to provide a lot more information, that's no problem. We can simply create sub-articles for, say, "German Baroque opera" or "German Romantic opera" and go on at greater length there.

I intend to use most of my Wikipedia editing time in the immediate future fixing this article (as well as the equivalent article on "French opera", which is also in less than ideal shape). I'll be glad to have your help. If you like, I could put a notice out on the Wikipedia Project Opera talk page and we can rope in some other German opera specialists too. Maybe you'd like to join the Wikipedia Project Opera yourself. Just add your name to the list of participants on the main page. Don't worry, there are no duties attached to membership and you can edit opera articles as much or as little as you like. Cheers. --Folantin 09:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: OK, so I've spent a lot of time today reworking this article. I've sorted out everybody before Wagner and created a reasonable stopgap for Wagner himself (of course, his section needs expansion). --Folantin 16:45, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to state right here and now that you're awesome. Really, I appreciate all the work you're doing, and I hope to be able to make equal contributions in the near future. I only have a couple of things, and I'll create new sections to mention them here on the talk page, if only to keep it from getting too cluttered and to help out anybody else that comes along. Xeinart 19:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I appreciate it. This article was in serious need of attention and you provided the wake-up call.--Folantin 20:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Call for Experts
I'm greatly in favor of a call for German Opera experts. I enjoy opera greatly, especially German opera, but I cannot call myself an expert. German Culture, yes, German Opera, only in a much more minor sense.Xeinart 19:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll put out a call and see if anyone is interested in checking it over or writing the later sections (I'm no great expert at German opera since 1945).--Folantin 10:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

More Sources
It seems like everything that has a source here is either from the oxford illustrated history or the viking guide. It would be really cool if we could get some other sources in, even if they basically say the same thing. Otherwise it looks like we just read a couple of books and branded ourselves qualified. Even worse, it might make us look like we just copied out of those books, or only made minor stylistic modifications. More sources are a good thing. Xeinart 19:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, that's two more sources than most Wikipedia articles have! Seriously, I don't have access to a decent academic library at the moment, and "The Oxford Illustrated" and "Viking" are reputable general sources written by experts (and, of course, according to Wikipedia we can't do original research). I used them for an outline. I have read a lot more about the background (especially Wagner), but I don't have many of those books to hand at the moment. I will try to add some more sources though. One useful resource is the booklet essays which accompany high quality recordings of these operas (sometimes you get up to four different essays in as many languages in the same booklet). You'll find more reference to those essays as the article progresses (early German opera is seriously under-recorded - but I did derive some info from recordings of Keiser's "Croesus" and Telemann's "Orpheus". Will add later.) --Folantin 20:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry if that came across wrong. I fully acknowledge those as reputable and good sources, I'm just a fan of variety. I'll see if we have anything decent at the campus library. I'm sure we must, but sifting through those books is very time consuming. Later on Monday, I should have the time to stick some more information up on Wagner, maybe even editing the main Wagner article. While I'm visiting the library, is there anything (People, places, conceptual changes) else that you think needs expanded upon? Xeinart 05:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I added another general source (A Short History of Opera) as well as a few more specific things. There might be some online resources we can link to (though these tend to be less reliable than printed sources). Can't think of anything that needs looking up in more detail amongst the areas I've already covered. If you can get hold of the New Grove Dictionary of Opera (either in the library or online), then you'll be cooking with gas. --Folantin 10:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh my word, I have a new favorite book. It's incredible, it's amazing, it's everything you could ever hope for in an opera encyclopedia and then some. Regrettably, I can't check it out, or even take it out of it's room, but I can take pen and paper in with me. I've a couple good pages of notes on Wagner, meaning that his entire page is going to get some modifications. I've also got some more general notes on Strauss that I'll toss into the mix. Once again, feel free to edit, even for stylistic issues. We want the article to be decently free flowing.Xeinart 00:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

So, after editing the section on Struass and going to add the New Grove Dictionary of Opera as a reference, I found that I don't know how... All that's listed in that section is a , or something of that order. Care to fill me in on how to modify that?Xeinart 01:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I've worked over the Strauss section. Hope you don't mind. I know a reasonable amount about him (I've heard at least eight of his operas). If you want to add references, click the "edit" button for the Richard Strauss section. At the end you'll find a bit that says "your references here" between and  (not written quite like that, of course, but you'll see what I mean). Just put what you want in there between those two tags. Should be fairly easy. If not, just leave your reference material here on this talk page and I'll add it myself. Cheers. --Folantin 10:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Singspiele
So, the way I would translate Singspiel is Singing Play. Not all Singspiele need to be be comedies, and that may deserve rectification within the article. Also, I would agree that Seelewig constitutes a Singspiel. As a simple matter of definition, the work is mostly opera, but it has a certain amount of spoken dialgoue as well. Xeinart 19:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Gespensterbuch
I completely disagree with the translation of "Gespensterbuch" as "Ghost Book". While in many ways, this translation could be accurate, ultimately "Ghost" is just plain the wrong word, especially considering the context of the phrase. A Gespenst (Plural Gespenster) is a decidedly evil incorporal creature, more on the order of a wraith, or a poltergeist. Personally, I would translate "Gespensterbuch" as "Book of Wraiths" for the purposes of this opera. Xeinart 19:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Be my guest and change the translation. I haven't read Apel and Laun's book (I'm rather intrigued, but it doesn't seem to be in print).--Folantin 20:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Skeleton outline
I've created a skeleton outline for the areas yet to be dealt with. Of course, these headings can also be divided into sub-categories. As yet, content is simply a minimal stopgap. One thing we have to decide is whether we are going to deal with operetta and, if so, where to put it. --Folantin 10:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If we do deal with Operetta, we need to make sure that we explain how it's different from a Singspiel. A lot of people just getting into Opera don't really understand the difference.Xeinart 23:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't be a big problem, although I really don't know much that much about operetta. In many ways, it is a continuation of the Singspiel in any case. It took off in Austria in the late 19th century, probably in parallel with Offenbach's works in France and Gilbert and Sullivan in England. So that's where I've put the sub-section. --Folantin 12:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The Introduction
I fear that the introduction is a bit too long. It feels like the entire is being crammed into as little space as possible, and it just feels... well, it feels like a giant general information dump... Any thoughts? Xeinart 04:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but it has to be long and it has to summarise the contents of the article. See WP:LEAD (not that I'm familiar with the entire contents of that article). --Folantin 08:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Compromise
Even though I believe that Beethoven's Fidelio is an example of early Romantic opera, I have decided to make it a separate genre, as I don't think it belongs in the Classical style or period. 74.36.25.237 15:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, that's an acceptable compromise. I still think Fidelio is more Classical than Romantic, but most critics I've read aren't that concerned about where to place it on that spectrum. However, it would be confusing to describe Fidelio as a "German Romantic opera", because that's a specific genre exemplified by Weber's Der Freischütz, which is heavily influenced by the themes of literary Romanticism (folklore, Gothic horror etc.) and often has a nationalist tone. I'm quite happy to leave Fidelio in its own section as a unique work. All the best. --Folantin 08:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

"too brute for singing"?
In the movie Amadeus it is said that "German is...too brute for singing"[ http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/a/amadeus-script-transcript-wolfgang-mozart.html ]. Is that an accurate quotation? Ewlyahoocom (talk) 10:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)