Talk:Operation Flash/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Antidiskriminator (talk · contribs) 11:48, 17 March 2013 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Resume of the detailed review
In order to summarize my review I will present it within appropriate table.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:14, 4 April 2013 (UTC) I hope that specific fixes and proposals given by me and other users will help improving the quality of this article and its bringing on GA level. I would like to encourage the nominator(s) to renominate the article once the problems have been addressed. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The role of UNCRO and ceasefire and economic cooperation agreements
The current text of the article says that UNCRO task is "monitoring of Croatian international borders separating the RSK-held territory from Yugoslavia or Bosnia and Herzegovina". The source used to support this assertion is not available online so I could not check it myself. The UN website presents a much broader picture and connects the role of UNCRO with the ceasefire and economic cooperation agreements of 1994. In the list of the UNCRO tasks the first one is "(a) performing the functions envisaged in the cease-fire agreement of 29 March 1994;" The lede of the article also mentions "ceasefire and economic cooperation agreements were signed between Croatia and the RSK in 1994". The main body of the article does not mention this agreements.

Taking above mentioned in consideration I propose:
 * The tasks of UNCRO are very important and should be clearly presented to the readers of the article.
 * The source used to support oversimplified assertion presented in the article should be checked for accuracy.
 * The ceasefire and economic cooperation agreements are important for the context of the events. It is no surprise they are mentioned in the lede and should be explained in the main body of the article per Manual of Style/Lead section and linked with UNCRO tasks.

Any thoughts?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:24, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

The main body prose does mention the economic agreement in the "prelude" section saying: ''In December 1994, Croatia and the RSK made an economic agreement to restore road and rail links, water and gas supplies and use of a part of the Adria oil pipeline. Even though a part of the agreement was never implemented,[34] the pipeline and a 23.2-kilometre (14.4 mi) section of the Zagreb–Belgrade motorway passing through RSK territory around Okučani were opened,[35][36] shortening travel from the capital to Slavonia by several hours...''--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:33, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What about ceasefire agreement?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:46, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The ceasefire agreement is now there in the specification of the UNCRO tasks: The controls were put in place by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 981 of 31 March 1995, establishing the United Nations Confidence Restoration Operation (UNCRO) peacekeeping force instead of UNPROFOR, and tasked the force with monitoring of Croatian international borders separating the RSK-held territory from Yugoslavia or Bosnia and Herzegovina,[39] as well as facilitating the latest Croatia–RSK ceasefire of 29 March 1994, and the December 1994 economic agreement.[40] in the same section, along with an additional source to back up the one already offered to support the UNCRO mission.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:48, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The ceasefire agreement and UNRCRO tasks connected to it significantly affected the situation on the ground. One passing-by mention is not enough for the article to fulfill the Good article criteria and cover "the main aspects of the topic". I believe that without basic details about this agreement (the lines of separation, deployment of fire weapons, the area between the lines of separation under exclusive control of UNPROFOR....) and UNCRO tasks envisaged in it this article would not addresses "the main aspects of the topic".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I must disagree. The WP:GACR specifies that the [article] stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (per 3b). The article is on a particular military offensive and not the ceasefire agreement. The aspects of the agreement you pointed out are valid points but add nothing to this particular topic. On the other hand, if you consider the agreement that important (there were dozens of ceasefire agreements prior to that particular one, Sarajevo Agreement being 14th or so) to warrant detailed explanation, I propose it be redlinked and an appropriate article developed. How about that?--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:12, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Dozens of other ceasefire agreements are not relevant for the subject of the article. This specific agreement is because it defined lines of separation, deployment of fire weapons, the area between the lines of separation and who was in charge for its controll ... which is far from being "unnecessary details" that "add nothing to this particular topic". I still believe that without basic details about this agreement and UNCRO tasks envisaged in it this article would not addresses "the main aspects of the topic".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:46, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Since there are no reliable sources on whether either side (UNCRO included) actually performed any of those tasks in full or in part or amended in whatever way possible, the "basic information" would be entirely on the agreement itself and on UNCRO - neither of which are part of the article and are hence WP:OFFTOPIC. WP:GACN furthermore advises GA review process against requiring the inclusion of information that is not known or addressed by reliable sources. Information on who and when and what was the agreement about exists and I think that's sufficient for the purposes of the article, and I don't see how exactly would the article benefit from information such as that the zone of separation was to be at least 2 km wide? I understand that you are quite interested to see this agreement detailed, but you have not specified what exactly need be done in your view.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:04, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong. You are asking for some basic information and the most basic info is in. If you do not specify what exactly you want me to do, the complaint is not really actionable.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:15, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * After taking another read trough your comments on this aspect and the agreement, I still cannot conclude anything other than that absolutely any additional detail about the items mentioned in this subsection title are only relevant to articles on the agreement itself (once there is one), on the UNPROFOR, on the UNCRO, possibly on the RSK, possibly on the entire war and that's about it. Whatever function has the UNCRO had prior to 1 May 1995 ceased that day and had zero impact on the offensive. Whatever UNCRO was tasked with had no effect on preparation of the offensive other than the aspects already contained in the prose (notably the whole motorway affair and the surrender at Pakrac). I simply fail to see why do you think that the role of the UNCRO was important to the topic of this article, when there isn't even a remotely significant (once again except the two just mentioned ones) let alone central issue regarding the topic discussed. I really don't think there's anything that could reasonably be requested to be added in this respect.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I think I specified exactly what I believe should be added to the article: basic details about this agreement (the lines of separation, deployment of fire weapons, the area between the lines of separation under exclusive control of UNPROFOR....) and UNCRO tasks envisaged in it this article would not addresses "the main aspects of the topic" because I think they are very important for the context of the events. I will try to explain my position with one example:
 * The source used in this article (Brigović, page 46) explains that according to this ceasefire agreement a lot of weapons of the army of RSK was at UNCRO storage and that troops of RSK had to go to UNCRO storage to take the weapons after the operation Flash had already began. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes and it also neatly explains on p.65 that the UNCRO offered no resistance re removal of the weapons - in effect acting as RSK storage depot. Both information are included now.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Images


Adding multiple images with very similar content is less useful....You should always be watchful not to overwhelm an article with images by adding more just because you can.

This image looks similar to other images in the article, except that it is of poorer quality and less informative. It is even incorrect in the part of the border shape and RSK areas left after this operation (only small portion of this areas is shown in the map). What is the purpose of this map?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:25, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The purpose of the map is to illustrate where particular toponyms used in the prose are located in the real world. While readers well acquainted with the particular region may find this map superfluous, those less involved with former Yugoslavia might find it very helpful to developing contextual reference to particular unit movements, defensive positions, location of the motorway etc. It is true that it is less detailed in terms of exact border shapes, but accuracy of any map will inevitably depend on its scale and purpose - and the purpose of the map is to provide contextual orientation for readers within the particular part of territory. Do you have any specific complaint about the map or do you propose an addition to its caption?--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I already specified my concerns. This image looks similar to other images in the artcle. It is of poor quality, not very informative and incorrect (RSK areas after this operation). I respect the intention "to illustrate where particular toponyms used in the prose are located in the real world" but I don't think this map is appropriate for that purpose taking in consideration the above mentioned flaws. It is not very illustrative. The toponyms are presented with numbers instead with their titles so readers have to check at the legend to learn their name. Anyway, this is not a major issue but only an improvement opportunity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:30, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't have much experience with sources. What is the source of ? Is there an English language version?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:34, 17 March 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * Looking at its description at the Commons, there's no English version of the map, moreover it cites no sources. It does appear to be based on the Map 50 contained in the Balkan Battlegrounds (Sectors South and North), plus prose contained therein (and in plenty other sources) regarding sectors East and West where there are no inter-corps boundaries, i.e. the entire sectors are AORs of single corps. Since the map is not really adding much to the article - the entire affected area being 18th Corps AOR, plus being a non-English map, plus not indicating HV Corps AORs, I'll remove it right away, until a better solution, which is not merely decorative, is found.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:42, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

The map in the Aftermath section presents the current Croatia location map, with border between Montenegro and Serbia. This border did not exist in 1995. Again, this is not a major issue but only improvement opportunity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:34, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

As I already said I don't have much experience with images and their licensing so my concerns might not be justified. There is a picture in this article showing Veljko Džakula (living person) being handcuffed. I am uncertain if it corresponds with WP:BLP, precisely WP:MUG?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:46, 19 March 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * From what I can read there, the WP:MUG seems to apply to photos taken by wikipedians (i.e. own work).--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:17, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No. It says "Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. This is particularly important for police booking photographs (mugshots), or situations where the subject was not expecting to be photographed." Veljko Džakula is politician in Croatia, the president of the political party who is alive and who regularly participate in the elections in Croatia (he was even presidential candidate once, if I am not wrong). As far as I know he was never sentenced or trialed for the events connected to the topic of this article so I am concerned that this picture maybe violates wp:blp? Again, I am not experienced with BLP issues so I apologize if I am wrong. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:33, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * How exactly is the image of "Serb leaders surrendering" used out of context here? Is this an article on a battle? Did leaders of one side there surrender? Are those specifically mentioned in the prose? Wasn't Džakula one of the leaders? If the image were used in article about Džakula, it would be out of context. Used here in this article - it certainly is not out of context.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If it is true that Veljko Džakula became opposed to the position of the RSK government soon after the war began, that he secretly negotiated and signed the Daruvar Agreement and other agreements with the Croatian government although the RSK government was against it, that he refused orders of the RSK authorities to attack Croatian towns, that because of this he was accused for treason, suspended in 1993, arrested and tortured by RSK police and arrested in Serbia and deported to RSK where he was again arrested and released from the prison in RSK with restricted rights, .... then I would say that this image presenting Veljko Džakula being handcuffed and arrested together with the members of the RSK 51st Brigade and civilian authorities on 3 May 1995 might be out of the context and might present him in a false or disparaging light. Especially taking in consideration that he was released after this arrest without being trialed or sentenced. I don't insist that I am right so if you still do not agree with me after reading my explanation presented here I will ask somebody who is more experienced with BLP issues for help.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Džakula was vice president of executive in RSK-held part of Pakrac at the time of Operation Flash, i.e. holding a high political office in the area. He was released by Croatian authorities soon after the capture, but then again everyone else, except those charged with war crimes, was also released. (Brigović, p.61) The image is perfectly within context. If an article used the image to describe Džakula as a criminal that would be out of context - removal of the image just because he was released would make sense as much as deletion of Trial of Gotovina et al because the defendants were acquitted. Besides the prose and the corresponding caption clearly indicates what the subject of the image is - surrender of remnants of the 18th Corps and civilian authorities in Pakrac.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not propose to remove the image because he was released. I proposed to remove it because he was arrested. In the meantime I found a rule about public figures If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it so I guess this image does not actually violate WP:BLP. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:06, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Casualties

 * "In response to the operation, the RSK military bombarded Zagreb and other civilian centres, causing the deaths of seven civilians and injuries to 205."
 * " Six civilians were killed and 205 injured in the two attacks, while a policeman was killed defusing one of 500 unexploded bomblets"

Six of seven civilians?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * Fixed, six civilians plus one policeman.--Tomobe03 (talk) 08:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Should three wounded Jordanian soldiers serving with the UNCRO be mentioned in the infobox among the casualties?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * Not sure, UNCRO was certainly not a belligerent, added under Cas3 anyway--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The infobox does not contain the number of people from RSK wounded by Croatian forces. Casualties in the infobox contains only the number of killed (188-283) and imprisoned (2,100). Since the text of the article says that Croatian forces wounded 1,200 people I will add that number to the infobox. If anybody has something against this feel free to provide explanation and revert me. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * What is the number of imprisoned civilians? The infobox presents the number of imprisoned soldiers (2,100) only. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The article says: "Croatia initially estimated that the RSK military sustained 350–450 killed and 1,000–1,200 wounded, but the number of killed in action was later revised to 188, the figure including military and civilian deaths." Bigović does not say "RSK military" but he says "serb loss" (srpski gubici). HRW do not say that 188 people were killed in action (which is term used only for military personnel, not for the civilians). HRW says that 188 Serbs were killed. I propose rewording because the sources do not directly support the text of the article and uninitiated reader could be mislead to believe that civilians joined RSK military to struggle against Croatian forces and were consequently killed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:05, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The last sentence in the article mentions investigations conducted by the Croatian authorities regarding "the killing of 23 individuals in Medari near Nova Gradiška, and charges were filed regarding the alleged mistreatment of prisoners of war in the detention facility in Varaždin". I think this needs some context and clarification:
 * Who were those "23 individuals"? Who killed them and why?
 * The noted and referenced investigation is underway to answer the same two questions. Do you propose we invent a couple of answers contrary to WP:CRYSTAL?--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason to use word "allegedly" which is expression of doubt? Were POWs mistreated allegedly or really?
 * Yes. Unless all charges are "alleged" by definition until proven in a court of law - and the applicable paragraph deals exclusively with court cases. As far as factual establishment that POW abuse occurred that is covered in "Some of the detainees were beaten or otherwise abused on the first evening of their detention" quite clearly. Did you read this section through or not?--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What are the results of investigations 18 years after this events? How many people are convicted, put on trial and sentenced? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Zagreb rocket attacks are closely connected with this operation. Its casualties are not presented in the infobox. Taking in consideration that their number was significant (6/7 deaths and 205/214 wounded) it might be a good idea to add this numbers to the infobox?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The connection is only in being concurrent. The ICTY ruling clearly identifies Zagreb rocket attacks as terrorist attack rather than a legitimate military action - i.e. should not be conflated with the article topic. The attack is described and linked here to its own article. Casualties of the Zagreb attack have little to do with the military offensive taking place at the same time. --Tomobe03 (talk) 16:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The number of wounded during Zagreb rocket attacks (205) should be checked for potential factual inaccuracy because there are sources (like HRW) which says that number of wounded was actually 214.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * "Croatian military losses in the offensive were 42 killed and 162 wounded." says the text of the article. The infobox presents RSK casualties with note they are both military and civilian but it does not clarify that casualties on the side of forces of Croatia are military. I will correct this and if anybody has anything against it feel free to revert me.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

UNSC Resolution 994
United Nations Security Council Resolution 994 looks like it is related to the topic of this article. If it is it should be mentioned in it?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:18, 18 March 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * It is fairly tangential as it brings nothing new but only supports 1 May and 4 May statements by the same body, already discussed at length in the article. Noted anyway.--Tomobe03 (talk) 08:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is tangential. Here is the text of the resolution. It is clearly related to "the military offensive launched by the forces of the Government of Croatia in the area of Western Slavonia known as Sector West on 1 May 1995 in violation of the Cease-Fire Agreement of 29 March 1994;". If UNSC issued resolution connected to this operation it is certainly notable event which should be presented to the readers of the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok to you it is central, to me it's not. It still repeats what's contained in the 1 May and 4 May reports nearly verbatim and the matters discussed by the resolution and the reports are presented in the article, and the resolution is noted as well. There's even a separate article on the resolution wikilinked from this article.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Sector West of UNPA
The territory in question belonged to the Sector West of the "United Nations Protected Area". Sector West is mentioned two times in the article without necessary clarification that it is the UN Protected Area .--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no reliable source claiming the UNCRO deployment zone was called that officially. Relevant UNSC resolutions (such as the one discussed just recently, and the two UNSC reports of 1 May and 4 May - referenced in the article) refer to the areas simply as Sector West, East etc. in contrast to what the same documents used to refer to the areas during the UNPROFOR mission. In short, calling UNCRO deployment zones UNPAs seems a bit of WP:SYNTH (if not outright OR)--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:03, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:03, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:03, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
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 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:03, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:03, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * All sources prior to March 1994 are fully right to call the area UNPA Sector West, as I pointed out above - the UNPROFOR mission did refer to the zone of deployment as UNPA. UNCRO mission did not. Most of the sources you just provided were published and all but one were most likely written before UNCRO. The single source from 1996 refers to the Operation Flash as Operation Lightning. If it is so inaccurate about one name why not another? Finally, the fact remains that the UNSC does not call it that way in documents where it may be expected to do so.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:20, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * UNPA were defined by UNPROFOR mandate and readily noted in relevant resolutions such as 762. If there were a single UNSC document post 31 March 1994 referring to the UNCRO deployment to "UNPA", I'd be more than happy to add that. Missing such a reference from the single authority on naming of the area(s) would be no more than SYNTH. To support my take on this, I'd like to offer another pair of sources (fully knowing that it is notoriously hard to reference absence of a term): UNPROFOR mission profile (here) explicitly speaks of UNPAs, while corresponding UNCRO mission profile (here) does not - it speaks of Serb-controlled Western Slavonia, the Krajina region and Eastern Slavonia instead. Neither does any of subsequent UNSC resolutions regarding UNCRO (1023, 1025) or Secretary General Reports to the UNSC of 23 August and 29 September 1995 .--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Regarding occasional mention of UNPA during UNCRO mission in sources unrelated to the UN, perhaps that can be attributed to application of accustomed terms grown into everyday use in 1992-1994. For instance, it was a usual practice to refer to UN peacekeepers in Croatia as UNPROFOR even when they were replaced by UNCRO (example) even by sources in the country. Such use of the term does not mean that the UNPROFOR was still active in Croatia contrary to UNSC documents, rather it serves as a source of poor journalism - as the UN/UNCRO itself provided absolutely no backing for such a term in multiple, very formal documents where such a name should be used (based on similar documents issued during the UNPROFOR mission) if there were any.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Are you actually suggesting that the "UNPA" designation should be inserted despite absolute lack of any reference from the UNSC documents whatsoever? I took a look at the first set of sources you proposed and those were regularly not supporting your claim because they were either from before UNCRO, or were specifying "UNPA Sector West" in conjunction of UNPROFOR. Furthermore there are ample sources (I listed one above) that illustrates incorrect application of term UNPROFOR or UNPA after the UNCRO was deployed. If you cannot produce a single UNSC source making the designation official, its insertion would constitute original research.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to break those sources down for you here:
 * 1) Roberts/Williams quote "In May 1995, Croatian government forces launched an assault on Pakrac, a Serb-held area in the Sector West UNPA" illustrates poor quality of the source. Separation line ran through Pakrac, bulk of the city being held by Croats.
 * 2) Bloed discusses the UNPA in conjunction with UNPROFOR, i.e. prior to UNCRO
 * 3) Page 98 in Croatia at the United Nations, October 21, 1993-January 16, 1998 also talks of UNPROFOR, not UNCRO
 * 4) CoE source seems plain sloppy - mistaking Operation Flash with Operation Lightning. If they mess one name why do you think they're reliable on another?
 * 5) The "Daily Report" source p50 talks of the UNPA in a paragraph preceding events on 24 Feb 1999, i.e during UNPROFOR mission, not UNCRO
 * 6) In "Disarmament and Conflict Resolution Project", p31 also talks of UNPA, but again re UNPROFOR
 * 7) Acta geographica is a 1993 (UNPROFOR-era) document

Do I need to go through the entire list? Please provide a single UNSC or UN GenSec report/official document linking UNPA and UNCRO and I'll put it in there. Otherwise I refuse to insert information based on a wild collection of texts pertaining to UNPROFOR mission or poor writing using customary names past their official use. What would be next, a proposal to amend UNCRO to UNPROFOR based on the Slobodna Dalmacija article I provided to illustrate my point?

Situation is simple. The UNPROFOR mission and mandate expired on 31 March. UNCRO was deployed with a new mission described by the UNSC in relevant resolutions and documents and UNPA are not described or even mentioned there. Not once. I'm trying to assume good faith, but I can see no reasonable explanation for insisting on applying an "official label" on a territory that does not exist in relevant documents.

If you wish to say that some reports, but not official ones, termed the areas the same way the UN did before UNCRO, that's fine but that has zero impact or relevance to May 1995 events. Please note that the UNCRO mission description does not even mention word "protection" anywhere at all. Could you please tell me why do you think that Darko Hudelist is right and UNSC is wrong on a matter of a UN peacekeeping mission?--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:25, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Let me put this in another way: What type of proof would satisfy you that the zones were officially called Sector West/East/South/Nort by the UNCRO? Why do you choose to dismiss relevant UNSC reports and resolutions?--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * On May 1, 1995, Croatian Army troops launched an offensive aimed at regaining control of Serb-held lands in western Slavonia, an area designated as a " United Nations Protected Area" (UNPA).
 * On 1 May 1995, the Republic of Croatia launched a major military operation in Western Slavonia, violating the cease-fire agreement of 29 March 1994. Western Slavonia (Sector West) had been defined as a United Nations Protected Area (UNPA), subject to United Nations protection and monitoring since 1992, pursuant to Security Council resolutions and United Nations­brokered cease-fire agreements, and constituted part of the so­called "Republic of Serb Krajina" ("RSK").
 * the Croatian offensive of  1 May  against  United  Nations  Protected  Area Sector  West  --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:22, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see you prefer to dismiss UNSC (relevant authority) and I see we won't reach an agreement here. Please review the remainder of the article and post a review here. - Once you fail the GAN, I'll refer the case to community reassessment. Thanks.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Please also note that your collection of sources is in clear contrast with UNSC sources using name "Sector West" and no other name, never mentioning UNPA. Please also note that the UNSC is the only relevant institution to name its mission or any aspect of its mission. No source beyond UNSC changes that.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Sector naming issue
Tomobe03 asked me to comment on this name business as a neutral party.
 * The formal name of a place or area is whatever the establishing/owning government says it is, regardless of the popular name or usage. Forex the formal name of the State of Virginia is the "Commonwealth of Virginia", despite the state gov't being about the only people who use that name.
 * The UNSC is the establishing body of Sectors East and West and refers to it consistently in that manner in all four, post-UNPROFOR-era, documents that I read.
 * It may be that the two sectors are classified as protected areas, but that is certainly not how they're referred to in the documents. I suspect that the continued usage of UNPA by non-UNSC groups and people is a legacy from the UNPROFOR era when that was the proper title, but I do not know that for certain.
 * In summary, I feel that the usage of Sectors East and West as given in the article is correct. I will watchlist this review for any comments on this issue by either of you.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking time to comment here.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Tomobe03 also asked me to comment. I fear I would not be seen as neutral by Antid, so I think that given Sturm (who is demonstrably neutral) has given an opinion, I will decline. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no naming issue here. There were four sectors of the United Nations Protected Areas in Croatia. The name of this particular sector was indeed the Sector West.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)


 * You are grasping at straws here - the same documents never indicate or name "United Nations Protected Areas" in conjunction with the UNCRO mission and they, inter alia, define the mission and all its aspects. Please stop this right now, your not acting reasonably about this matter.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

MOS

 * "It was also speculated that the MPRI.... MPRI and Croatian officials dismissed such speculation " - Maybe the speculation word should be avoided as potentially loaded language per Manual of Style/Words to watch, precisely WP:SAY?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:03, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The source directly supports "speculation" therefore no, it should not be avoided.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There are two groups of sources. One group say that it is true and other group say it is speculation. Isn't it wrong to refer to such statements as speculations in both cases and to say one group speculated and other group dismissed such speculation?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Is this a repeat of UNPA? A group says X. Others report that the group says X and comments that is a speculation, i.e. unconfirmed, and the individuals referred to by the speculation deny all. What is so problematic about this that you cannot comprehend?--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not all sources refer to MPRI involvement as speculation. I.e. Slobodan Praljak, a Croatian military official explained "…that's why we have the organization MPRI in Croatian army, with the top American generals whom we paid and who helped us to prepare Storm and Flash ."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Per Manual of Style/Military history With the exception of certain recent topics that have not yet become the subject of extensive secondary analysis, and for which a lower standard may be temporarily permitted, articles on military history should aim to be based primarily on published secondary works by reputable historians .. Most of assertions are referenced with news reports (29), Croatian state archivist (28), unknown authors of BB (22 times) and former RSK general (9 times). Any thoughts?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:13, 20 March 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * The specific guideline does not apply here per WP:GACR. If and when the article gets to MILHIST ACR, then it would apply.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * FYI BB is accepted by FA reviewers. Any thoughts?--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * After insisting on the UNPA (where you fell completely silent after a 2nd opinion, not to your liking, was provided) this is yet another time you try to impress your opinions on what the GA review should do. Please read What the Good article criteria are not.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, this specific guideline does not apply here. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I think there might be a problem with the first sentence (per Manual of Style/Lead section). It defines Operation Flash as "...a brief Croatian Army (HV) offensive..." when in fact both army and police units participated in the operation, as presented in the sources and remainder of the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Major aspects

 * I think that this article does not appropriately cover one of the major aspects of this operation. The human rights violations. Many sources (some of them like HRW report and report of Mazowiecki already used in the article) extensively discuss human rights violations during this operation. This article instead paid more attention to emphasize that human rights violations were not massive (the sentences which deal with criticism of Akashi's statement have more than 1,200 characters). I think the article should present the most notable events of human rights violations and activities of state attorney and judicial system of Croatia (or some other judical system) in prosecuting of the responsible persons within a paragraph or two (or the whole section?). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This article does not cover all legal procedures connected with this operation. It presents two ICTY cases against RSK and Yugoslavia party (Martić and Perišić) and one unclear mention of Medari investigation and mistreatment of prisoners. I found two more which probably deserve to be mentioned:
 * "Two sisters, Radmila and Mirjana Vukovic, whose parents and sister were killed during the 1995 Croatian military operation Flash, lost their case before a local court in the Croatian capital Zagreb. The court ruled that the murder of their parents, Milutin and Cvjeta Vukovic, and their younger sister Dragana in the village Medari in Croatia, in May 1995 during the operation Flash was not a war crime. According to the court’s ruling, the civilians were collateral damage and the sisters were ordered to pay court expenses."
 * Chief war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte ...had been about to indict the Croatian President Franjo Tudjman just before he died late in 1999. The prepared charges of crimes against humanity and war crimes were related to actions allegedly taken during the Croatian offensives called Operation Storm and Operation Flash in 1995 ...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Serbian prosecutors are currently investigating war crimes committed in the village (Medari), where a mass grave containing 28 bodies was found in 2010. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This is yet another attempt you make at POV-pushing. Ahkashi's statement is significant because of the office he held and is given due weight. Since no major violations of human rights occurred giving those a full section would be POV-pushing and giving WP:UNDUE weight to the issue. Your statement that "This article does not cover all legal procedures connected with this operation" is a blatant lie since you apparently comment on a case brought before a Croatian court re Medari deaths in this very review. Re point 1 in this subsection, the court made a ruling that you might not like, but until the verdict is overturned by a superior court, the issue is not relevant to the article. Re point 2, Del Ponte may have prepared many things but that does not guarantee convictions (remember Gotovina et al case) nor would that be admissible per WP:CRYSTAL. Re point 3, the same is tried before a Croatian court and mentioned in the article. No details are given beyond the fact that there were people killed and that charges were made. If there were a guilty verdict on that, there would be material fit for inclusion, but that's up to the court to decide.--Tomobe03 (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Given your repeated POV-pushing I honestly think you should recluse yourself from this review, as you appear to be incapable of NPOV.--Tomobe03 (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We obviously do not have the same opinion about the article. I will finish my review very soon and you will be able to prove your position during reassessment you announced or at any relevant noticeboard.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Legal procedures connected to this operation also include:
 * 4. The Republic of Serbia filed the genocide lawsuit against the Republic of Croatia on January 4, 2010. because of the alleged war crimes which include those committed during the Operation Flash.(link, link, link). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How does that equate to actual human rights violations. Serbia also filed charges at ICJ claiming Kosovo UDI was illegal - we know how that one fell through. Once the ICJ rules on the matter, this will become relevant, otherwise that's WP:CRYSTAL. This is especially true knowing that the sources claim no major human rights violations occurred in this case, yet there's a charge of genocide from Serbia. Either the charge has nothing to do with the topic of the article or it is a charge filed as a counterclaim to Croatian charges filed against Serbia at the ICJ. In both cases it has no place in this article.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:43, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the displacement of the Serb population from the area is unclear. They are covered in almost statistical style. What was the reason of this displacement? Was it temporarily or permanent and why? What happened to this people and their property?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with you on this point. I'll add information on this later.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:45, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * UN CIVPOL (UN civilian police) is not mentioned in the article although they were present on the ground and participated in events connected to this operation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * UNCIVPOL was established as a part of UN peacekeeping mission (initially UNPROFOR) and need not be mentioned separately from UNCRO. If you feel they warrant more attention, please edit UNPROFOR, UNCRO and UNCIVPOL pages. UNCIVPOL role is so irrelevant they clearly are outside WP:GACR required scope. --Tomobe03 (talk) 15:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

On hold
Before I began this review the article was stable and it was not tagged. The situation is different now. There are several tags in the article: clarify, citation needed and whole paragraph is tagged as confusing and unclear.

Per Reviewing good articles I will place the nomination "on hold" for a week to give the nominator (a help from regular editors of the article would be appreciated) "a chance to address the tagged issues so I could continue with the review. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:40, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You can't review a GA with the purpose of disputing its content from a POV and COI standpoint as you've done throughout the process, so it'd be prudent that you remove yourself from this position and let someone else who's not involved in these topics and disputes review it. The nominator can also ask for another reviewer himself if he considers you not neutral enough to perform the task.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm well aware that this review was performed inappropriately as numerous requests going beyond WP:GACR were made in an effort to impose arbitrary standards (as described in WP:GACN) and at least one obvious POV-pushing effort was made (in respect of UNPA zones). As I pointed out earlier on in the review, I'll seek community reassessment of the review once it is failed.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Taking in consideration that: I will restore onreview status although a week period has not yet passed and continue my review which I hope I will complete within a week time or so.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:13, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * nominator (or regular editors) of the article did almost nothing to address the tagged issues until now
 * the tags were placed after I started my review

Questions from Соколрус

 * Why did you write that only Serbs shelled the Croatian town, but do not write that Croats bombed cities of Serbian Krajina?
 * You write that the Bosnian Serbs helped Serbian Krajina. But you don't write that at the same time the army of Croatia in the territory of Bosnia was at war against the Bosnian Serbs. Why?
 * You wrote about ethnic cleaning of Croats in Krajina. However why you wrote nothing about murders of Serbs in death camp in the western Slavonia in 1991? These crimes were recognized by the Croatian government, and the court condemned some former soldiers. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Соколрус (talk) 16:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Background section
G'day, I came to look at this article by invitation and have thus made a few edits as I saw them. However, I believe there are a couple of significant problems with the Background section that really need to be addressed comprehensively (which is why I tagged it as confusing/unclear). This section starts by inadequately introducing the Log Revolution, to which it provides no backstory summary to flesh out what should be a brief overview of the events leading up to the War, and until I added one, no "See also" or "main" templates for readers to follow to get the full backstory. I suggest you develop a pretty standard brief historical background to the Croatian War of Independence and use it in this and similar articles, with the Prelude section being tweaked to align with each article's scope. The Background section here starts with a brief mention of the Log Revolution but provided insufficient backstory/context, runs quickly to 1993 then back to 1991 in the next para, then ultimately end up in 1995 in the third one. I strongly suggest you rework the Background section to make it chronological, and provide more up-front. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:29, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Maps
I suggest the largest scale map is used in the infobox, with the tactical map used to illustrate the operation section ibn the body. The current infobox map doesn't give a casual reader any sense of where this operation occurred. The description of the plan needs illustration. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)