Talk:Operation Goranboy

Source
Is there a link to this source: Goldberg, Carey (June 14, 1992). "Azerbaijan Troops Launch Karabakh Offensive Conflict". The Los Angeles Times. http://www.latimes.com/. Retrieved 2007-02-17. ? It seems to lead to LA Times homepage only. Tuscumbia ( talk ) 12:57, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Goranboy Operation
The operation started with an intention to capture Goranboy rayon of Azerbaijan, or at least from that direction. Here is the map of Goranboy and here is a map of Shahumian of NKR.. The previous Shahumian rayon of Azerbaijan SSR is now Goranboy rayon. Moreover, please refrain from POV such as "occupied". A country can't "occupy" its own territory. For neutral use, we use a word "capture". Tuscumbia ( talk ) 22:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * However Azerbaijan chooses to restructure and rename its administrative regions and borders after the war does not matter for the historical purposes of this article that describes the events of the time. Back then Shahumyan and Goranboy were separate regions. Goranboy was to the north-east of Shahumyan.  And the reason why this operation was called "Goranboy" was not because it aimed to incorporate Shahumyan into Goranboy, but because the attack was planned to originate from the region to the north-east of Shahumyan.  In addition, at the time of the events described in this article, this region was known as Shahumyan.  And using the name of the concerned region as "Shahumyan" helps to differentiate between Shahumyan and Goranboy and thus avoids the confusion for the reader. It's common sense. (Honestly, after reading your version of the article, it simply didn't make sense. No offence.)
 * As for the POV, my concern was not about your use of occupy/capture (by the way, if you find a wikipedia guidelines page that outlines the neutral terminology in such cases, I'd be grateful), but the overall tone and extent of your edits which was making it obvious that the neutrality of your edits is questionable. Plus you did all those extensive edits all at once without any prior discussion.  I'm reverting your edits. Matrixfighter (talk) 23:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Try to read more of history of the conflict than Armenian propoganda material. Shahumian you're referring to is what NKR calls the former Kelbajar region. In reality Shahumian was the region in Azerbaijani SSR which was renamed to its pre-Soviet name Goranboy (below Ganja). Common sense should tell you that the operation which started with an offensive to capture the former Shahumian region (now Goranboy) of Azerbaijan SSR, just below Ganja moved along to Agdere (Mardakert) district and captured most of northern parts of former NKAO. Hence, the name of the operation Goranboy. Azerbaijani troops did not move southwest to Kelbajar or Shahumian (as per Armenians), they went south, captured Agdere and then went east and further south. Moreover and again, this could mean "occupy" to you, for Azeris it means "liberate" their internationally recognized territories, plus the Goranboy or Kelbajar which you call Shahumian, were both outside of NKAO. Therefore, occupy, liberate, whatever you want to call it, we stick to word capture for neutrality. Ask any Armenian users and review all other articles before making the text overly pro-Armenian. Tuscumbia  ( talk ) 13:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I remember that whole debate about occupy/liberate, or whatever other words that were used in other articles and people chose to use "capture" or other similar words like "took control of" to make it more neutral. I have absolutely no problem with the word "capture".  So let's keep that.
 * But your extensive edits also included the renaming of the territory, which at THAT time was known as Shahumyan (same region where Operation Ring took place), into Goranboy, which at THAT time was the region to the north-west of Shahumyan! This administrative renaming took place AFTER the war. Sorry, I cannot see how your edits which rename every word "Shahumyan" into "Goranboy" are neutral.  Furthermore, using the word "Goranboy" to signify "Shahumyan" in the articles describing the history of Nagorno-Karabakh war is misleading the reader -- its confusing because readers cannot differentiate which particular territory we are talking about at particular passages of the article.  (And of course I'm not talking about what NKR government today calls "Shahumyan" or "New Shahumyan".  That would be both non-neutral info as well as confusing for the historical purposes to an average reader).  I suggest that you recognise the simple historical fact that within the Azerbaijani SSR the Shahumyan region and Goranboy regions were different regions; that they were united into a single administrative region which became known as "Goranboy" AFTER the war; that most of the historical documentation about the history of the NK-war and the events refer to this region as Shahumayan.  Taking these points into account I suggest that you change back your Shahumayn/Goranboy edits back to Shahumayn, so that the reader knows when we are talking about which particular territory.
 * If not, then I'm happy to take this to the Requests for Arbitration -- I'm sure that this will be resolved there pretty quickly, as this is a not a complicated matter as far as Wikipedia guidelines regarding historical and geographical locations are described.
 * (As for your comment "Try to read more of history of the conflict than Armenian propoganda material", I should say that this is pretty inflammatory. You should recognise that many people on Wikipedia are actually serious researchers who do all sorts of extensive reading and research.)
 * Matrixfighter (talk) 22:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Matrix, first off, I appreciate your willingness to discuss very much. Thank you! Secondly, I also appreciate the already accepted consensus on usage of neutral word "capture" as opposed to "occupied" or "liberated". Third, I'll have to disappoint you but at the time of the Operation Goranboy in June 1992, the districts were already renamed by Azerbaijan. I actually have a map of Karabakh (both Upper and Lower) published in February 1992 and can get it scanned at FedEx and sent to your email if you need it. The name changing started with abolition of status of NKAO in November 1991, Stepanakert being changed to Khankendi first. The Shahumian rayon was renamed to its pre-Soviet name Goranboy and months before the Operation Goramnboy it was already Goranboy Rayon. It's actually a good thing you mentioned Operation Ring. You're right, at the time of Operation Ring, i.e. in May 1991, the district was still Shahumian, however in the Operation Ring article, the wiki-link is incorrect because it leads the reader to the current NKR-named Shahumian which is not the Shahumian district of Azerbaijan SSR region (when the Operation Ring took place) north of former NKAO. The current Shahumian as per NKR covers Kelbajar rayon and part of Goranboy rayon of Azerbaijan. So, to avoid the confusion a new article about Shahumian rayon (of Azerbaijan SSR) needs to be created and wiki-linked to Operation Ring article. This article Operation Goranboy, however needs further changes of names (eg. villages Karmiravan, Horatagh, Leninavan, Stepanakert, etc). For consensus purposes, we can put the 1992 names in text followed by pre-1992 names in parenthesis.
 * If you don't agree and want to take it to Requests for Arbitration, I'll be more than happy to participate.
 * My comment was about the history of the conflict. The notion that you are not aware about the actual renaming of towns and villages to pre-Soviet names in the beginning of 1992 speaks for itself. No offense, but there is a lot of propoganda material and most users rely on those rather than seeing both sides of the story. Tuscumbia  ( talk ) 13:28, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Unsupported edits
Most of the article provide info unsupported by references. Lots of POV and language used is not neutral. Please discuss on the talk page before editing and pushing POV. Thanks. Angel670  talk  10:34, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Equally unacceptable is replacing legible content with illegible English. Your "deleted under control" and your later "to hold under control" are meaningless, whereas the content you replaced, the "to break through the defenses and capture", had a clear meaning. I have restored it. Also, in the context of a single offensive it is appropriate to use wording like "recapture" where one side regains a position it lost in an earlier part of the same offensive - it is not "pov language". Meowy 01:55, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

"560 Armenian civilians died" in infobox. This number had a source http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1993/WR93/Hsw-07.htm. However I see no such number in the source. Parishan replaced it with "56 Armenian civilians died". However this 56 figure is for civilians killed in "indiscriminate air bombings" ... "in August and September alone". So this figure in this source is not for the entire period of the offensive but is just for two months of it and just covering civilians killed in a particular way. Meowy 02:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)


 * My bad. Luckily, though, I found an account of a Memorial worker Alexander Cherkasov who was sent on a mission to Goranboy in the aftermath of the operation. According to him "there were no mass killings of people in the region, as Armenians fled before the Azerbaijani troops even entered the villages. About twenty elderly people who had been unable to leave were captured, but an agreement about their release and transferring to Armenia had already been reached." Parishan (talk) 04:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)