Talk:Opeth/Archive 2

Band Picture
About the current picture. That loggo is too small, and the page needs a pic of the band. Opeth is an international act, they need a better pic. Someone get a pic of the band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.180.226 (talk • contribs)
 * You are right. Unfortunately, I don't have any that are suitable.. Will keep looking of course.. Johnny w   talk  15:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The picture saying "Martin Mendez during a 2005 performance in The Netherlands" is not even a picture of Martin Mendez, you might want to fix that Jacob Kjær 01:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw some pictures of Opeth on the Italian Wiki (which is a featured article btw), so I wanted to know if it is possible to use them here? --CircafuciX 03:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, of course. Done. :) Johnny w   talk  10:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a large picture of the band's logo!! should it be added?! Maged M. Mahfouz (talk) 21:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, i thought the logo was of small resolution... i was wrong :) won't happen again ;) Maged M. Mahfouz (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Melodic Death Metal
Sounds better. It gives ode to both the melodic and death metal sounds found in Opeth. Whats with genres anyway....Baka. Savre 02:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Opeth play progressive death metal and progressive rock whereas the 'melodic' is quite useless, as it also mostly refers to bands like In Flames and Dark Tranquility.Revan ltrl 13:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Savre 22:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Opeth isn't melodeath. Just listen to it. I'm not sure what it is, sound kind of emoish at times. 71.72.24.2 22:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Opeth is not Melodic Death. Melodic Death is death metal in the Gothenburg style like In Flames, Soilwork and At The Gates. The music is based around Iron Maiden-esqe Guitar harmonies. Opeth is progressive death metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.71.50 (talk) 20:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

OPETH IS NOT MELODIC DEATH METAL. It can't be any clearer. Melodic death metal is like, as mentioned above, In Flames or the new Arch Enemy or things along those lines. Eternal Tears of Sorrow would function as a decent example, too. Opeth incorporates death growls in with a highly instrumental and progressive sound. Death + Progressive + Metal = Progressive Death Metal. I'm putting that in the genre box and removing melodeath because it's just plain wrong. Anyone who has heard melodeath would know immediately that Opeth sounds nothing like them whatsoever. Mister Deranged 02:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I can clearly say that Genre: Progressive Death Metal, Death/Doom Metal, Art Rock va1e —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.51.45.65 (talk) 15:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup - ToDo
The article currently is not in great shape. I know, I have not contributed much in recent history, but would like to do a bit more, since my work other articles is more or less close to complete. As a first step, I'll add a todo-list at the talk page header, I hope, we'll all use the list as intended. Any clear tasks should be listed there, and, if you wonder about what to do next, just pick a task and go ahead. If you have any ideas or comments, I am all ears ;) -- Johnny w  talk  13:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Whoever the person is with the fragmented english who keeps editing the page should stop. It makes this article look very unprofessional —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalstyle (talk • contribs)

About the notable side projects
Since the notable side projects are projects done by individual members of Opeth, most of them should be removed. If they are interesting enough, they will already be part of the individual band members' WP article. If they are relevant to the Opeth biography, they should become part of the biography. If the band is very closely related to that band, it should be mentioned in the infobox under "associated acts". If nobody disagrees, I will make the changes pretty soon.. Best wishes! Johnny w  talk  14:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Genre, new Style section
In an attempt to solve this genre dispute, I tried strip down the Lead as per WP:LEAD and create an new section about their style. We all should focus on describing their style, which means, describing elements of what they do and not what we think is the corresponding genre where these elements are used. This is the only way, in my opinion, to focus our energy on things that will help the article. What particular sub genre they belong to can be discussed after a keg of beer in a good old fashioned fistfight. ;) In particular: does anyone mind if I change the lead to say: "Opeth is a metal band [...]".? All the details about the genre, style etc. can be expanded on in the article, where these things actually belong. If nobody objects, I'll make the changes in the near future. Best wishes.. Johnny w   talk  15:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I will change the lead sentence to go with all other FAs on bands and change the genre to the most general (heavy metal). The article has its own sub section to elaborate on the specific style. I will also add Scandinavian death metal to the infobox, hope you agree.. Johnny w  talk  18:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

New release in 2008
On July 15th, 2007 Opeth played a show in Ilosaarirock festival, Joensuu, Finland during which Åkerfeldt revealed they would start recording the new album some time in November.
 * So shouldn't the untitled 2007 release probably be removed from the page? The original citation for the announcement of a new album in 2007 is questionable (at least, there's no longer anything on the official site I can find), and in all practicality, even if they started recording at midnight November 1st and worked 24/7 until completion, an album's not coming out this year. Daedae 17:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This page is semiprotected; any username more than a few days old can edit it. There is no need for administrator assistance to edit this page. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 23:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Progressive rock?
Should progressive rock really be in the genre box? I know that the album "Damnation" was all light rock but I don't really think that should effect that bands genre as a whole and should only be listen on that specific album's genre list. Zanders5k 03:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Quote from your talk page: Hello. I have reverted your edits to Opeth. As you may or may not be aware, the band release an album which contained almost only progressive rock songs called "Damnation" in 2003. Because of that, and also because of the fact that the band and their songs are heavily influenced by progressive rock music, often even displaying so in passages of the songs themselves, the genre should definitely be listed in the box. If you still feel the genre should be removed from the page, please create a section in the articles talk page to contest it, so we can get some opinions. :) ~ | twsx | talkcont | 02:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC) Which would kinda be my reasoning why it should be listed. ~ | twsx | talkcont | 11:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Opeth also have prog rock songs on other albums, such as Still day Beneath the Sun, Harvest, Patterns in The Ivy, Benighted, To Bid You Farewell, Hours of Wealth, Isolation Years, Atonement etc.

Opeth, death metal??, no way
I'm reverting changes, seems that trolls modified this thing that was clear time ago. Progrocker7 18:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I erased "progressive death metal" because that isn't a style or subgenre or anything, I believe it doesn't exists as such, I think bands that some people say they're "progressive death metal" are just technical or complex death metal bands, nothing more, no Prog there...

So Opeth is the one and only band that has successfully mixed death metal vocals with truly Prog Rock inspired Metal.Progrocker7 18:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

And I added "Melodic Death Metal" because it's the only that could be somewhat accepted to make note that Opeth aren't always a clear voice band. Progrocker7 19:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I did read here, thats why I changed the genres. I don't understand why you added melodic death metal... that kind of stuff is; In Flames, Dark Tranquility, At the Gates... and even though melo death is influenced by some progressive tastes that doesn't mean Opeth is part of the genre. Opeth have deeper death growls and use like you said yourself "pure progressive rock" into their death metal style. Quote: "So Opeth is the one and only band that has successfully mixed death metal vocals with truly Prog Rock inspired Metal." You just reversed your argument with that statement. I would like to see where you are heading with this. If there is going to be a problem with the genres then it must be referenced and no where have I seen Opeth labeled as melo death. --CircafuciX 19:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

— Don't get me wrong, Opeth isn't part of the Melodic Death Metal spectrum, neither of the Death Metal spectrum, I only added that because it's the only description related to death metal that could be accepted in someway to justify Opeth's growls, it's only a consideration and it's placed in third place in Opeth's description, and because you can't add "technical death metal" or just "death metal", no, none of them is accurate for Opeth's music, in fact just saying that is to be pretty much lazy.Progrocker7 00:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * "neither of the Death Metal spectrum" I don't understand this, you can't just think that the death vocals weren't there. I can get countless references that Opeth are indeed prog death, they helped pioneer the style. Also, progressive death metal deals with using acoustic passages, jazz influences and melodic elements such as with a time change and mood which are all components to Opeth. It is without a doubt that Opeth are progressive death metal and you can't just say that a genre just doesn't exist. Also, progressive death metal and technical death metal are pretty similar and have some of the same descriptions. Opeth sometimes are pretty technical in their musicianship but because the acoustic passages and jazz influences in their songs they are and should be progressive death metal. --CircafuciX 03:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

— Again, by "progressive death metal" are you talking about Cynic or Atheist??, come on it's a made-up term that badly describes anything, let's imagine...let's say "progressive death metal" is a genre, and Opeth belongs to that, how many more bands are doing what Opeth does??, and that is to mix Prog rock influenced Metal with death metal vocals, I don't think you could find ANY, because simply there's not such band other than Opeth, that's why I say Opeth are unique, and that "progressive death metal" doesn't exists as a genre or anything because there are no bands to sustain that, and please note HOW DIFFERENT is to be technical and to be truly progressive...really Prog like Opeth in FACT is.Progrocker7 03:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know what to do with this... if you think its a madeup subgenre go to Progressive death metal and nominate it for deletion and see what people's reactions would be. This is not a dictatorship and you don't set the rules so I'm doing whats right for Opeth. I'm adding it to Opeth if you like it or not. --CircafuciX 05:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

This is what "Progressive Death Metal" article says:

"This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources."

Wonder why, the answer is obvious because this is a MADE-UP term, deal with it, there's only "technical death metal" in the bands listed in that article, I don't think death metal could live along with Prog Rock, or Prog music, they have certainly COMPLETELY different direction and intention behind the music, if you know what Prog music is you'll quickly understand what I'm talking about, please THINK about it well, peace.Progrocker7 05:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a reference for prog death and I did think and I am an avid listener of the progressive genre so I know what it's all about and that it CAN be mixed with death metal. Stop denying the fact that it can. You think heavy metal wasn't made up either? well in fact it was "at the time" and every band/artist would not be in existence (of what they are classified as) if no one started a "made-up" genre, otherwise everything would just be called music. --CircafuciX 05:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

But WHICH band OTHER THAN Opeth??, man, your arguments are so inconsistant, and this reference you gave is about a guy who knows about METAL, NOT about progressive music, and note this very well, you quickly agreed and changed your mind about the "scandinavian death metal" tag, that means that you are not so sure of what you're talking about, and more, when you say "progressive death metal" you are saying that the band is predominantely death metal, and then you take the word "Prog" only as a cheap adjetive, "Prog" is a strong word, not to use that easily like you think, and in "progressive death metal" the word "progressive" could be easily replaced by "technical" in the case of bands like Atheist or Cynic, ergo you don't need to bring the "Prog" word to that kind of bands, and I do strongly think that if you only go with "death metal" to describe Opeth, that is a lack of accuracy with their music, because they simply DON'T PLAY DEATH METAL, they're a heavy band, but NOT DEATH METAL, see...a band isn't death metal only because of the VOCALS, because if there's a pop band singing with death metal vocals would you say that they play death metal??? I don't think so, real death metal is much more than that.

Please AVOID messing with the "Prog" word and with Prog music.Progrocker7 17:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please remember that our opinion regarding the genre shouldn't be an issue here. We have to collect, and summarize external sources according to due weight and leave our egos behind. Johnny w   talk  09:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * All genre is "Made Up". Opeth certainly qualify for Death metal status and progressive aswell. I think melodic is a good way in summarizing the softer parts of their music. Since nobody seems to want to provide any references, Demon of the Fall is so death metal even though he gets a bit %^#2$ at the end of the song. The bluesy part in Moonlapse Vertigo is so prog. In My Time of Need is so melodic. What would Harvest fall under?? Prog, melodic, full-bodied acoustic hardcore strum pattern alpha beta gamma??? --Savre 08:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Training?
Would it be possible for anyone to find information about what areas the band members have studied in? It sounds like there is evidence of a jazz and/or classical education in some of the players, can anyone back this up with sources? Or are they just awesome? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.238.178.48 (talk) 17:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Akerfeldt revealed on the D&D documentary included with lamentations that he taught himself how to play guitar from a very early age. Martin Lopez is the only one known to have traditional training in the jazz elemement, but he is no longer in the band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.124.161 (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Genre change
Replaced Progreesive Death with melodic beacause thier relation to death metal is subject of debate and thier early albums are Melo-death Scipo 22:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

If we are going to continue in this debate why don't we just label the genre as debated and have a section on it about the two sides. Although, if we do this by referencing, I never saw them labeled as melodic death metal. Not even one site does. And yes they are melodic but progressive is melodic in its own way. --CircafuciX 01:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Really. i've Often heard there earlier work refered to as Melodic death metal. But what I'm Really concered about is having the tags Prog-Death and prog metal up at the same time. They both state that opeth is progressive metal and I don't think the genre has to be stated twice. The prog-Death tag should be removed as it is encompassed by prog metal and the fact that Opeth's status as death metal is subject to controversy Scipo 03:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If you (I actually mean anyone) can find a source like a trusted music site or an interview, a review or any other source then 'I' (we) will accept its use here. If you are worried about the tags why not take progressive metal off because prog death is just a fusion of the two genres and actual progressive metal tends to be used for bands like Queensrÿche, Dream Theater and Fates Warning to name some. As for the death metal situation, why aren't they listed under the list of melodic death metal bands yet? (may be obvious for the debate but I never seen anyone add them to the category). So basically find a reliable source to back up claims. You may not like it but just grin and bear it is all I can say for now. --CircafuciX 05:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Opeth is REALLY NOT death metal at all. Most certainly not even anything close to melodic death metal. Period. If anything, they fall under Progressive-"dark metal" or more accurately Classical Death Doom metal with black metal elements, as the article originally said before, it has been moved to wrongly "Prog/death metal/ Melodic death metal".

Progressive metal with death metal vocals seems like a reasonable way to describe them.--E tac (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Opeth are not melodic death metal at all because that signifies a slight (emphasis on slight) metalcore influence that most melodic death metal bands have (although some go more "deathy" than some) and that death metal has lower growls and I also somewhat agree with the progressive "dark metal" one but they are hardly (emphasis on hardly) doom at all either. I think we should mention them somewhere as having "dark metal" influences (they are listed on the dark metal page as being part of the "genre" early on) and using death metal vocals, but not always using the rest of the death metal characteristics. Also, using just progressive metal with death vocals won't work either as there are some progressive metal bands I know of that aren't the heaviest but use the occasional "growl" but it is not intended in any way for it to be "progressive death metal". What would be best to do here is to list all of the styles of Opeth possibly with references and remove the genres from the infobox for a see: link, which would say debated genres. Maybe a disputed template should be added to this talk page for the time being. This is what I suggest to possibly end this dispute. --CircafuciX (talk) 05:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You are right about the references, but I don't see the need to put a "disputed" tag anywhere. This entire discussion is meaningless and the dispute without future, if continued without sources. And to look for sources that back the claims made by single editors would neglect other sources. As far as I recall, I tried to find some sources a while ago. After that, the "discussion" continued as always. WP:NPOV and WP:VERIFY require us to look for any good sources to solve this issue, not to form our own opinion and then find the "appropriate" sources. Our own analysis of the issue only comes to bear when we weight these sources and synthesize a good summary for the article. To further this cause, I'll add a new subsection below. Johnny w   talk  15:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Making the genre verifiable
After this talk page has seen plenty of assumptions and opinions regarding Opeth's genre, we need to find some common ground. There's no use in exchanging long arguments placing the band, if, in the end, we have to follow WP principles and synthesize the information already available in the world. This means specifically, that we need to gather up all the sources we can find, remove all unreliable sources, and represent the rest with due weight. (If you want to, read up at NPOV, Verifiability, and RS). Below is the first list I compiled a good while ago. I hope that it will meet more attention these days.. please add whatever good source you can provide to end this issue for the time being. Also please don't hesitate and speak up if you have a better idea. Thanks, Johnny w   talk  15:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Collected sources

 * AllMusicGuide (bio):
 * "added progressive influences [..] to their brand of Swedish death metal.", "a leading force in progressive metal with death roots"
 * AllMusicGuide (Ghost Reveries):
 * "their now-trademark brand of death metal", "the album takes the band's progressive acumen to a new level"
 * Rolling Stone (Ghost Reveries):
 * "death-metallurgists"
 * Phoenix New Times Ghost Reveries Review
 * "Swedish prog-metal", "death-metal atmospherics"
 * themetalforge Ghost Reveries
 * "Swedish progressive death metal act", "Opeth’s old melodic death metal", "progressive black metal"
 * the village voice
 * "Opeth, the Sigur Ros of Scandinavian Death Metal"

Discography
The discography is split... The studio albums are present on the main page, the others in another page... Its either put it all in one place or remove all of it!! EPs, Singles, Demos, etc... are just as important as Studio albums... Maged M. Mahfouz (talk) 21:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I notice that "The Roundhouse Tapes" has been removed from the main Opeth page. I agree with above. Put it all together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.22.46 (talk) 12:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Band Members
There neeeds to be a sort out of who is actually in the band or not and who played on which recordings. I can assure you that Fred Ljunberg used to play football for Sweden, not guitar for Opeth as he is currently listed.

Page re-write
For the past week, I have re-written this entire article. Everything that has been ranted about on this talp page is pretty much taken care of. No more to-do box. The article is currently under a peer review and will soon be going to FAC. Anyone is welcome to contribute, don't hesitate. Peace, &mdash; Burningclean &#91; Speak the truth! &#93; 05:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just asking, what do you prefer, band paired with a singular verb of plural verb (like "the band is" and "the band are")? --BritandBeyonce (talk) 11:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I would go with the more common, universal version of American english, "is". However, it does not seem likely that this would be of any concern when the article is a FA candidate. :-) ~ | twsx | talkcont | ~ 12:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * yah. as long as its consistent within the article. I just spotted "Opeth are" (plural) then the "band was" (singular) and "band has"(singular). --BritandBeyonce (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Logo removal
The logo lacks critical commentary, and so is simply for decoration at the moment. If a reliable source could be found that talks about the logo (how it was designed, its significance, its meaning...) then the information could be added and the logo included in the article. Without critical commentary, fair use images will stop an article reaching featured, and maybe even good, status. J Milburn (talk) 16:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have provided more context, such as the logo's designer, as well as more accurate information regarding its original use, which integrates rather well with the Still Life artwork/delay bit. Note that due to the logo now being used consistently for over a decade, it has become very closely associated with the organization it represents, thus it has not only become notable enough in itself to warrant inclusion, but its omission would also have a detrimental effect on the overall article. - Cyrus XIII (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, better. It's still not great, and the source cited doesn't actually mention the album, but still... J Milburn (talk) 12:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The same website (the band's official one) has a fairly comprehensive discography with scans of the various album covers and CDs, both original editions and reissues. I considered that bit a given, but I can add a respective footnote, if you believe it will improve the article. - Cyrus XIII (talk) 14:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

GODDAMIT NOT DEATH METAL!
Opeth is NOT death metal and never will be. I mean, WHAT posess everyone to call Opeth death metal? Do they sound like a remotely death metal? Or do they have songs wich has blastbeat along with constant tremolo-effect (very Slayer-like! MFTW!) riffing wich switch to occasionally thrashy parts (pure death metal normally includes that kind of passages) ? Gore lyrics? DEFINATELY NOT! Opeth IS much more defining DOOM/DEATH METAL band with classical (mostly like yngwie)-traits. This IS TYPICAL death/doom metal. That's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talvimiekka (talk • contribs)
 * Ooh somebody is cranky. Does the style of music really make the death metal fully? They sing about death, and use death growls, that sounds like death metal to me. &mdash; Burningclean &#91; Speak the truth! &#93; 22:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No offense, but on Wikipedia, we rather follow reliable sources (like the All Music Guide) than all-caps-laden talk page rants. - Cyrus XIII (talk) 23:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)