Talk:Ophanim

Dead Sea Scroll reference
"One of the Dead Sea scrolls (4Q405) construes them as angels"

I looked over that scroll in Hebrew and English translation and it doesn't seem to construe the wheels as angels at any point.

Hebrew: https://maagarim.hebrew-academy.org.il/Pages/PMain.aspx?mishibbur=39602&mm15=000012000000 English: https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-Uy_BZ_QGsaLiJ4Zs/The%20Dead%20Sea%20Scrolls%20%5BComplete%20English%20Translation%5D_djvu.txt

Whoever added that line is probably misinterpreting the line "When the wheels advance, angels of holiness come and go..." but this doesn't say that the Ophanim (wheels) are angels, and doesn't actually add any new information about them beyond what's in Ezekiel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IYY (talk • contribs) 20:58, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Merging
This should really be merged with the article on Thrones.

The article on Thrones has zero specific references to any of its information. If anything it should be merged into this article. Heptazane 16:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Against Merge - the Kabbalistic angelic hierarchy lists them as separate choirs. Jason Harvestdancer | Talk to me 21:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Against Merge - there is no evidence, as far as i am aware or otherwise supported in the article, to make the correlation that the Ophanim, as seen in the Old Testament along with the Cherubim and Seraphim, could be the same host of Spiritual Beings mentioned by Paul of Tarsus, in the New Testament, as Thrones (i.e. Colossians 1:16). Also in the article Thrones, although it does not mention the source, it states "They do however, come in the second Choir, and are assigned to planets.", [my bold] not in the first choir (where the Ophanim are included due to the vision association with the other two superior Orders, the Cherubim and Seraphim). Such popular idea of mixing both Orders - Ophanim and Thrones - may have arised from the distribution of the Nine Orders of Angels presented in the De Coelesti Hierarchia, where the Thrones are ranked below the Cherubim (and the Ophanim omitted): however, a different view may be found at the following talk page: Talk:Christian angelic hierarchy. Hope it helps. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.58.99.122 (talk • contribs).
 * reedited the article to try clarify and show the distinctions of both Orders; also removed the merge tag.

a throne is 'static' or sedentary, whereas a chariot is 'dynamic' and traverses
I am for the merger and integration of articles... it is pointless keeping the articles separate without an exegesis of their historical development and representation within confluent traditions... btw the orders are NOT a hierarchy, they are a system and there were members who moved between orders and shared membership between orders, it is not so conceptually neat...

Gulley (1996: p.37) states that: The 'thrones'; also known as 'ophanim' (offanim) and 'galgallin', are creatures that function as the actual chariots of God driven by the cherubs. They are characterized by peace and submission; God rests upon them. Thrones are depicted as great wheels containing many eyes, and reside in the area of the cosmos where material form begins to take shape. They chant glorias to God and remain forever in his presence. They mete out divine justice and maintain the cosmic harmony of all universal laws.

Musica universalis B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 04:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Gulley, Rosemary Ellen (1996). Encyclopedia of Angels. ISBN 0-8160-29881


 * Hi dear Friend. Well, perhaps without noticing it, when you above discern between static and dynamic, you present a self-evident major difference between the Thrones (as described in New Testament vision) and the Wheels (also known as Thrones, as described in Old Testament visions: Ophanim). About the hierarchical system to which you show your own aversion: it is our present society of our "modern" world that makes one blindly believe that we are all equal (leveled under the same materialist ideology; Spiritual Beings being a mere byproduct, called imagination, of cerebral neuro-cellular activity, an impossibility or just delusional stories): We are equal in essence (as we may learn from all the great Religions), yet, like in ours schools, not everyone of us in this our School of Life is at the same step in path of Spiritual evolution. If there are differences among us in the position we occupy in evolution at our scale (due to each one's own effort), imagine the differences, in a wider scale, among the various Orders of Beings evolving in our solar system, God's habitation: there you have the basis for the hierarchical system. Whatever you may deduce from these brief lines: thank you for your attention. --Ishimfirestarter 12:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Digimon Reference
As big as a Digimon fan as I am, I would like to see the reference to Ophanimon listed as a "Popular Culture" reference. I understand that the article is rather small, and content is needed, but "Popular Culture" references should be properly labeled as such. --kenohki 15:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

-There is a musical work titled Ofanim by Luciano Berio. One of his great late piece. Might this be included on this page? http://www.universaledition.com/Luciano-Berio/composers-and-works/composer/54/work/3946

Cleaning up the list
Of the beings identified as Ophanim on this page: Leaving, you may note, no actual verified Ophanim on the list. Neither does this section appear to have a specified source. I'm a bit of a novice on Wikipedia and an amateur angelologist. Should the list of attributed names simply be erased until it can be verified (stored here, of course), or is there a notice of some sort that needs to be added to the section instead? Noaqiyeum (talk) 04:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Bodiel, Zaphkiel, Oriphiel, and Lauviah have no pages;
 * Jophiel, Raziel, Nelchael, and Samael have pages identifying them as angelic beings that are not Ophanim;
 * Astaroth, Gressil, Focalor, Forneus, Murmur, Phenex, Purson, Raum, and Sonneillon are identified as demons;
 * Verrine, most amusingly, is identified as a French confection (although with a suggested redirection to the demon of impatience).

Rename Ophan?
May this page be renamed "Ophan" to match the naming of Seraph, Cherub, and Hashmal?192.249.47.177 (talk) 18:44, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Ophanim as Thrones
I see that this article identifies the Ophanim with the Thrones as a fact, since the sections about Catholicism and Western Wisdom Teachings speak of Thrones and not Ophanim, as if both were interchangeable names. Similarly, the article about Thrones has a secion about Ophanim. But, other than Gulley's statement, is there any basis for such identification? Neither Pseudo-Dyonisios nor St. Thomas Aquina ever describe the Thrones as wheels or anything remotely wheel-like; on the contrary, it would seem that they're very similar to Seraphim or Cherubim. There's also this passage in the article:

"The Ophanim are also equated as the "Thrones", associated with the "Wheels", in the vision of Daniel 7:9 (Old Testament). They are the carriers of the throne of God, hence the name. However, they may or may not be the same Thrones (Gr. thronos) mentioned by Paul of Tarsus in Colossians 1:16 (New Testament)."

Reading this, one would think that Daniel equates the two, but the passage actually says:

"As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. (New International Version)"

Even if "thrones" here was referring to an angelic order and not to the common meaning of "throne" (and it rather seems the other way around), that these thrones are the same as the wheels mentioned later is a very flimsy connexion. In my opinion, the information about Thrones should be moved to its proper article, and the information about Ophanim in the "Thrones" article should be moved here. Leaving, however, a statement that for some authors like Gulley, the two are the same.84.125.23.220 (talk) 11:56, 18 May 2015 (UTC)