Talk:Ophites

At present, this article explains that the Ophites liked snakes, that Christians didn't like snakes and why, that other people besides the Ophites liked snakes, and that the Ophites had a highly developed symbology of light and dark. But it doesn't explain why the Ophites liked snakes, and what it had to do with light and dark. Bacchiad 07:49, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) Article doesn't make any sense, either. 90.206.82.133 (talk) 21:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone find where the quote 'Do not lie, Yaldabaoth...' comes from?


 * Yes, here. Different translation, though: “I am father, and God, and above me there is no one.” But his mother, hearing him speak thus, cried out against him, “Do not lie, Ialdabaoth: for the father of all, the first Anthropos (man), is above thee; and so is Anthropos the son of Anthropos.” Kramden (talk) 02:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I removed the stub section about snake handlers because the only connection was the superficial fact that they both had a connection between a group of Christians and snakes in general. Snake handlers derive their practices from a completely different thological base, and having it linked here is confusing and causes the wrong conclusions to be drawn.

12.205.149.45 04:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed unsourced POV
OK I removed the comments about the Ophites being repressed by the orthodox christians of their time. Could someone provide me with a source or sources to validate that this group was repressed or suppressed. Was this group suppressed by Pagans or Christians since the time of their "repression" or "suppression" christianity was an underground movement as well. How many where suppressed how where they suppressed. Was their doctrine "secret"? If it was could this be a reason for it's scarcity? Also why is it noted that Celsius a pagan gives a description of the groups beliefs but there is no mention of their repression or suppression made by Celsus who was an enemy of christianity? LoveMonkey 15:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the 4th century date for the alleged destruction of their texts would place it long after the death of Celsius. Charles William King (writing in 1887) suggests that Christians did destroy most Ophite texts after Hippolytus and the other authors named in the article wrote about them, although at first glance I don't see him give a clear date. If it happened after the work of Epiphanius, that would indeed place it in the late 4th century Gregorian at the earliest. Dan 02:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

OK post here what Charles William King said so I can track down the history of where this is coming from. I have yet to find anything better then hearsay. As for the Ophites I don't find a date for them passed the 4th century. But what does Gregorian have to do with it? Is this in contrast to a Julian date or something? Also surely there is more to this then the word of one person? There has to be some historical data about such an oppression-correct? Also wouldn't their behavior and or beliefs be at odds with the Pagans of Egypt? I mean could not some of the Egyptian pagans have perceived their snake worship as Apep worship? Calling themselves Seth which is also the Greek name for Set. Would this not have put this group at odds with the pagan Egyptians? Doesn't the very definition of evil mean to turn mankind against the creator and creation. Is not the definition of evil to destroy. That would be order and sanity too:>) LoveMonkey 12:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC) I am curious though. It would seem that Plotinus being from Alexandria and the Egyptians themselves also being "against" the God of foreigners, that God being by the time of the Ophites being called Set or by the Alexandrian Greek (yep Plotinus and crew) being called Seth. That this group would have one heck of alot of pagan "troubles". It appears that the Seth and Ophites would have to have been Hebrew because they had such a deep understanding of the Old Testament. Then the group being "Foreign" and worshipping the snake which was to other Jews the catalyst for the fall of Mankind. All of this would put the group at odds with the Egyptian Jews (say Philo and his Minuth) with the Egyptian Pagans who had by now made Set a "bad" God of Foreigners and also would perceive their name Seth to be indicative to worshipping Set. But the over the tops goes that fact tha the group worshipped snakes (which would be Apep worship in Egypt). This then coupled with Plotinus stating that they as gnostics (and yes he most certainly did!) believe that the cosmos and the creator of the Cosmos is evil. Would put them at odds with allot of other groups then just the Christians. LoveMonkey 13:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC) A study of the social climate of the 4th century on Alexandria Egypt does not show to be one where different groups got allong oh so well in Alexandria either. Of course this is before the conquests of Muhammad and Islam. So I am curious for this specific group would they not have angered allot of "other" groups? Also the "orthodox" christians did not have power over the government in Byzantium at the time either. "They" or "us" if I might be so bold where not the ruling faction of Christianity that the government embraced. Not maybe until say Theodosius I. Which leads to where maybe this should start. That would put a starting date around-380AD LoveMonkey 13:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

POV Issues
The article seems heavily slanted against the Ophites. Of course, some of that is inevitable, because Ophite theology only survives through their opponents, but it seems excessive nonetheless. 96.231.17.131 (talk) 13:32, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How so? By calling them "heretics," or is there something more? It is definitely a bit dense and academic; I took out the Zoroastrian part, as it is thoroughly outdated scholarship.
 * Removed the "references" templates; it would be better if people would mark [citation needed] where appropriate (or, better yet, add citations themselves). Kramden (talk) 07:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)