Talk:Opus Dei/Archive 2008

Removed another straw man argument
I removed another straw man argument, a favorite method of weakening Opus Dei's replies. The old version argued: Opus Dei also says its level of independence from the rest of the Catholic Church has been exaggerated— supporters insist that Opus Dei works in harmony with local dioceses.

But really Opus Dei never said independence is exaggerated. The idea never appears even in the note indicated. By this Wikipedia is saying that Opus Dei admits to be a relatively independent body.

Instead, I wrote: Catholic officials say that contrary to criticisms of independence "the hierarchy has taken over the care of this reality by means of a prelate appointed by the Pope" and that members are "even more conscious of belonging to the Church." These are quotes not from Opus Dei but from the Francesco Monterisi, Secretary of Congregation of Bishops, man in charge of dioceses and prelatures. It is not Opus Dei who is acting defensively, in a state of denial. The Vatican itself says that Opus Dei far from being independent, improves unity with the Church.

The first strawman argument I removed was a quote taken from Fr. James Martin, S.J. which said "Opus Dei does not recruit." Walter Ching 06:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a fact Monterisi stated this. It is a fact Monterisi is a Catholic official. A euphemism to suppress a categorical statement is unacceptable. "Many groups would prefer that certain facts be stated euphemistically, or only in their own terminology, or suppressed outright; such desires need not be deferred to (NPOV)" Walter Ching 07:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a matter of suppression, just a matter of clarity. When he says "the hierarchy has taken care of this reality by means of a prelate", I think we're well outside of the bounds of what a typical reader will understand.  All the sentence really needs to accomplish is state that, in a clear and brief way, that supporters deny OD is independent from the church.  There are various wordings we could use to get that across to the readers, and we can play with the wordings if needed-- but but "hiearchy taking care of reality" just doesn't get the job done. --Alecmconroy 11:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I hear you Alec. But there is still a big difference between a defensive sounding, strawman-like "Opus Dei and its supporters also deny that the group is in any way independent from the rest of the Catholic Church" (your version, Alec) and "Catholic officials affirm that church authorities have even greater control of Opus Dei now that its head is a prelate appointed by the Pope" (my version: conveys original categorical, explained rebuttal, from a top church authority, clear to the reader). Walter Ching 09:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that new wording is basically acceptable. "denying independent" and "saying they're not indepedent" are basically the same thing-- if you feel the latter approach better represents the position of OD, that's I don't see any problem.   --Alecmconroy 04:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Your rendition of my version (it seems to me) is another case of straw man argumentation. "They're not independent" is a misrepresentation of my "they are even more 'dependent' now" which Monterisi insists on. ?!? Walter Ching 09:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ahh- well, that's because my head was obviously on backwards when I wrote that. Had I been thinking straight, I would have written that "'denying independence' and "claiming dependence' are basically the same thing.".    Instead I wrote "'denying independent' and 'saying they're not independent'" are basically the same thing"--  big difference.  Sorry about that.  Sometimes you wake up and only half your brain has booted.  --Alecmconroy 09:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

third strawman argument removed
Strawman argument: Some argue that a certain distance or separation from family is appropriate.

Implication is (or might be): members (even supernumeraries) tend to be "off" from family affairs somehow because of their Opus Dei duties.

Improvement: To explain the celibate lifestyle of numeraries and their relationship with their blood family, supporters quote Jesus's comment that "He who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me" Walter Ching 09:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just FYI. I think what you are taking issue with are not at all strawman arguments (contesting a weaker claim and claiming to contest a stronger one), but rather either complex questions ("do you still beat your wife?") or apophases ("I do not want to address his stupid remarks").  And in either case, the severity is quite mild as these things go, so I second Alec's caution with wording as the problem is indeed quite subtle, but do encourage you to go ahead as you see fit. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 02:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sad to say, Baccyak, straw man arguments are misrepresentations of an opponent's position. And all these examples are more or less subtle ways of misrepresenting Opus Dei. Walter Ching


 * While you may be essentially correct with your two statements, they say nothing about strawmen in this particular article. The connection between the two statements is logically vacuous; I stand by my description.  E.g., because both Walter Ching and (say) Adolf Hitler are human does not imply Walter Ching is Adolf Hitler ;-) .   And perhaps the more important point is that even misrepresentations are allowed if they are both notable and verifiable (in that they were made, not that they were necessarily true).  But of course those types of positions are also rebuttable...easily.  Like I said go ahead and fix as you see fit, but do pay attention to clarity and encyclopediaticness [sic; but you know what I mean...] Baccyak4H (Yak!) 04:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

fourth straw man argument removed
Straw man argument: For example, supporters say that Opus Dei's relative silence stems not from a secretive nature, but rather is the result of a commitment to privacy, humility, and "avoidance of self-aggrandizement".

Implication: yes, Wikipedia believes Opus Dei is relatively silent compared to other organizations. Its practices are secretive according to other standards, but Opus Dei insists they are not because it has its own views of humility.

Improvement: "For example, supporters say accusations of secrecy stem from mistakenly equating its members with monks. Instead, its lay members, like normal professionals, do not externally represent their church group. Opus Dei itself, they say, provides abundant information." Walter Ching 08:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this last round of changes was a bit of a step backwards. There were a couple of problems introduced..  The deletion of the explaination of the "sign of contradiction", for example-- the short description you wrote isn't going to work.  People familiar with the subject may catch it, but your average reader will have no idea why it's being discussed as a defense against criticism without the longer description.  (and as a side note just for future reference, the 'encyclopedic voice' can't call Jesus by the name "Jesus Christ", but that's just a trivial aside which would be easily fixed if that was the only problem).


 * The deletion of the rebuttal to secrecy introduced its own problems. For one, it's just original research-- you're basically making up your own explaination and putting into the article, which is a no-no. Obviously we probably could dig up somebody saying more-or-less the same thing your saying if that's the only problem, but that has to be done first.  In this case, I don' think OR is the only issue-- that new text introduces a problem when it talks about the "normal professionals do not externally represent their church group"-- it's not clear, but what I think you mean is "People don't normally go around saying what church group they belong to".  But obviously, that's a somewhat forced analogy-- most people are very open about being members of the catholic church, however, but might be more discrete about being members of Opus Dei.


 * Which is to say-- yes, you're correct when you say Allen's "humility" argument does acknowledge, as implication, that OD has a long history of being somewhat "discrete/secretive", but attributes this this to a positive virtue rather than a negative attribute. If you and Baccyak4H, feel strongly about it, it might be okay to replace his argument with an outright denial that OD is "discrete/secretive".  Personally, I think the blunt denial is much more of a strawman arguement than the "humility" argument-- it's a matter of record that OD has a uniquely "discrete/secretive" history, with its "secret/discrete" latin-only constitution and the "secret/discrete" rules requiring prior approval before revealing you're a member.  Even strong supporters of the organization admit OD has a history of what we might call "lack of transparency"-- though not by any means necessarily about bad thing.


 * That said, this section isn't the "accurately summarize facts" section, it's the "summarize arguments" section. In an earlier version, I kept in the blanket denial "OD does not recruit" for similar reasons-- it was obviously a strained argument, but it's not my job to delete the arguments I find harder to swallow and replace them with ones I find more palatable.  So, if you (Walter) really still feel the point-blank "OD provides abundant information" approarch is better, let me know and we can ask Bac and some of the other old RFCS if they agree that's the way to go.  If they do, I'm sure we can cobble together a sourced blanket "OD isn't discerete/secretive" sentence that will comply with OR and won't present opinions as facts.
 * --Alecmconroy 09:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you take a look at the footnote you placed??? There's a long quote of JLA: "I’m not sure that today, you can make an argument that Opus Dei is secretive in the sense that people normally mean it. One needs to distinguish between some Opus Dei members and Opus Dei corporate policy...At the level you would use to identify secret societies in the world, I just don’t think Opus Dei rates. Their offices, their headquarters are a matter of public record — the information office puts out information about budgets and membership and all that kind of stuff. So I wouldn’t say it was secretive...And their logic for that is, again, secularity. They don’t want to be a religious community and they don’t want to run specifically religious enterprises — they want to run secular enterprises that have a Christian spirit. Therefore they don’t want to be distinct from the rest of the world. That’s one reason why they don’t wear habits.  Read Messori Chapter on Strangeness of not being strange, and other chapters. My version is a summarized arguments section. Walter Ching 08:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I was member of the organization and I have a first hand knowledge of its internal modus operandi. It is funny that you want to "correct" a straw man argument that was created by Opus Dei itself. They use (I used, and I did not invent them) arguments like those you want to delete (or that you already deleted) to state that they are a very open organization. But in fact, I do not claim that my opinion must be included in your article about OD I only write for the record, OD is a secretive organization that carefully selects what to communicate to the public, the media and people that have only know them externally (like those that go to their activities without becoming members). If you want more information about their actual internal rules you have to read (in spanish) their real internal documents in Opuslibros.org a critic organization. They never have published these documents, OD have only published the rules that the Catholic Church gave to them (in latin), but these rules are relatively unspecific. The nitty-gritty is in their secret documents -ok not very secret now that Opuslibros folks have published them :-) -. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.28.158 (talk) 18:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

What is the Wikipedia standard for inclusion of references?
First time reader of this article, and I found the Hitler references surprising. On checking them, what you have is a reference to an article where the author of the article knows someone that says he heard Escriva say something. Is that level of indirection sufficient to warrant Wikipedia mention?

Replaced unenlightening repetition
Old version: Similarly, Opus Dei stresses the importance of labor, and places great value on industriousness, diligence, and hard work.

Implication: This version merely repeats synonyms, takes up space, but does not add any additional information.

New version: Similarly, Opus Dei stresses the importance of work and professional competence....According to its official literature, some other main features of Opus Dei are: divine filiation, a sense of being children of God; freedom; and charity. Walter Ching 11:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

NPOV and Suppression of essential backgrounders
A glaring problem of this article is a suppression of the names of people who hold views. This is a direct violation of NPOV in the name of "not including in the text unnecessary details" ???

In fact, names of representatives are not details but necessary information for NPOV to work as envisioned by Wikipedians:


 * Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular...When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

I will endeavor to correct this glaring suppression of essential facts. Walter Ching 07:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Go for it. I do think, however, that there are there are better ways to word your last sentence.  As written, it would not be hard to construe "glaring suppression", with my intended emphasis on the noun, as an assumption of bad faith.  Baccyak4H (Yak!) 13:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Baccyak4H, thank you for your kind encouragement and my apologies if you felt slighted by my use of words, although I do know that you (Baccyak) did not have a hand in writing this part of the article. I feel disappointed for myself that my use of words has been construed as an assumption of bad faith. First, because the word "suppress" comes right out of Wikipedia's policy vocabulary. Second, there are quite a number of meanings expressed by the word "suppress". One connotes stoppage by using force; and another merely refers to "keeping something from being published". And if people assume good faith on my part, they can very well choose the second meaning for my statement, and will then come to understand that I assume good faith as well as they do.


 * May I also refer to your use of "bad company fallacy" or a form of reductio ad Hitlerum where you attempted to associate my good name to an unsavory character. I would like to inform you that I forgive you, and I would continue to be happy working for Wikipedia, despite everything. Thank you and I wish you a nice weekend. Walter Ching 07:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, honestly I do not understand about half of what you wrote, and from the other half I can easily infer you did not understand what I did. I took it to your Talk, since I have no issues with this page per se  Baccyak4H (Yak!) 03:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The second half referred to your statements here, for which I am sorry I failed to refer to earlier. Walter Ching 03:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Prominence to prominent authors and works
Corollary to the above is a greater prominence that this article should afford to more prominent authors and works. As it is the present footnote system makes everyone equal vis-a-vis the clear indications from these guidelines. A listing of the major works, specially those available on line, should not be kept from being published or "suppressed." Walter Ching 08:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I added this to the intro:


 * For Massimo Introvigne, a sociologist, Opus Dei is intentionally stigmatized by its many opponents.


 * This is a very important statement from a prominent sociologist, who has written in twelve social science journals and has written an entire encyclopedia of religions. Clearly, this should not be kept from being placed in the introduction of a scholarly article. Walter Ching 04:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

masochism

 * On the other hand, critics state that self-mortification is a "startling" and "questionable" practice— one which borders on masochism.

You can't understand mortification as a way of masochism, In the catholic doctrine, the mortification is suposed to "hurt", if you like it, then you are not doing mortification but some thing else --Domingo Portales 15:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I suspect that you are correct. Dr.Florence Magoo 13:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

We need to be realistic when evaluating this topic. No one engages in self-flagellation, no matter how painful, unless, at some level, they enjoy it. Most reasonable normal people will agree that if a person enjoys such activity, he has a mental disorder. My own theory is that a major factor contributing to such conduct is the Roman Catholic church's unnatural suppression of sexual desire among its clergy and the idea that even thoughts about the subject are impure. The young man, who experiencing normal emotions, but who is subjected to this thought regimen, then gets the idea that he is deserving of punishment and decides (perhaps through the example or suggestion of older clergy) that self-flagellation is a good way to accomplish that objective. The interesting thing about self-flagellation is that, for many men, despite the pain, it produces perversely pleasurable effects and is sexually stimulating. When the maximum endurance level of pain is reached, many men find release through masturbation. At this point, the young man feels extremely guilty and ashamed, but since he did not have sexual intercourse with a woman, rationalizes that he has not violated his vow of celibacy. What can he do about his guilt for the sexual activity that his self-flagellation produced? Well, that can be the "sin" for which he whips himself tomorrow. A vicious cycle.

What can I say about the Pope's decision to canonize the founder of this cult? Not much that is polite. As a Byzantine Catholic who is in communion with the Apostolic See of Rome, I suppose I am required to believe that, by virtue of the canonization, the founder is in heaven, but I am not obligated to believe anything else about him. For example, I am free to conclude that he was a hopelessly disordered mental case who lacked the free will to engage in conduct that would merit his eternal damnation. That is stretching it, but that is as close as I can come to concurring in the result reached by the Pope.

Normal Catholics do not engage in this behavior, and those who do should not be held up on a pedastal.

John Paul Parks (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Changes to introduction
i feel that the first paragraph is heavily liberally biased, also i am putting it under review to have its good article status revoked (Jack.the.mega (talk) 02:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC))

I feel that the last paragraph in the introduction has an odd feel, the way that the first sentence introduces a critical point of view of OD and then the next two sentences refute that claim seems;
 * a) almost POV, like a Straw Man Argument, mention the controversy without proper citation in one sentence and then refute said claim with two cited arguments.
 * b) out of place, an introduction should mention the controversy and link to that part of the article but shouldn't mention specific claims or cite arguments, after all we have an entire section for that.

As an editor that's neutral to this debate, I instantly felt that the article was defending OD when I read that. Master z0b 00:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Kindly read this part of this talk page for you to have a background. In summary, the two sides are there to reflect in a few words (as the lede should do) what is contained in the long section on controversy. Opus Dei is considered one of the most controversial in the Catholic Church. There have been long discussions on this in the past. If you have comments on the controversy section, you might want to check the discussion immediately before this new topic. Quoting Allen, Introvigne, Messori is a method of not making Wikipedia defend Opus Dei. Thanks for your collaboration. Walter Ching 09:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi MasterZob-- I once came to this article a long time ago making very similar comments.    After a LOT of work, we've managed to make a lot of progress since then--  take a look at what this article was like in May 2006!


 * But of course, the page still has issues. Basically, there's a lot of people who love Opus Dei with all their hearts and have come to wikipedia willing to devote inordinate amounts of time and energy to promoting the group on Wikipedia.  At the same time, there's a few people who hate Opus Dei with all their hearts and have come to Wikipedia with the exclusive goal of denigrating the group.  Editors who are trying to write neutrally have a hard time getting things done-- the OD members all think I'm a Jesuit, secretly  sent here to defame  Opus Dei, while the anti-OD people think I'm an albino monk sent to promote the organization.


 * You've manage to be here for a year without having edited anything OD related, which is a good sign to me that you're not here with any axes to grind. Why don't you take a stab at rewriting the introduction in a way that you think is neutral.  Just be prepared for a bit of a fight, cause pages like this are still the wild west of wikipedia, and making changes is a little bit like swimming through molasses. --Alecmconroy 10:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Please take a look at this section too: prominence to prominent authors and works. Walter Ching 01:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The paragraph in question is quite simply badly written, the first sentence has 7 commas in it. As Alecmconroy pointed out I'm obviously a neutral editor, so the first thing I'm going to do is fix the grammar. However I do think that it will still need another sentence at the end of the paragraph to balance the POV. Master z0b 01:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Kindly check these guidelines:


 * Lede
 * Lede


 * After reading these guidelines, I see it appropriate we remove "specialized terminology" of supernumeraries and numeraries. You'll get extra space for your extra sentence at the end. :) I suggest you summarize the Opus Dei and Popular Culture section. Walter Ching 01:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Walter but I don't need to delete a sentence to fix the paragraph in question, I actually think that we need to either add another sentence explaining the controversy or remove one of the sentences about catholic journalists defending OD. Why do we need two in the introduction?

Also if you think it's appropriate to remove "specialized terminology" then please start a new topic here instead of listing it in this section. I think that would make the two issues clearer. Master z0b 02:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * After some thought and some research I think the best way to go is to add a last sentence to that paragraph explaining James Martin's findings to counter the two pro-OD findings, or something about the claims that OD pushes a right wing agenda in the Vatican and also in global politics. I'm not saying we have to push that side, but at the moment it reads too defensive of OD, if anything it puts too much emphasis on the controversy. IMHO the best thing would be to delete that entire paragraph and simply add something like: "Opus Dei has it's share of supporters and critics, see criticisms." Master z0b 02:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur with deleting that paragraph and reworking in a simple note that it's controversial, somewhere in the earlier parts of the lead. Perhaps even something as mundane as "While it is not without controversy, ..."  Maybe a prepend to the last sentence of previous paragraph:  "Various Popes and Catholic leaders have strongly supported what they see as Opus Dei's innovative teaching on the sanctifying value of work,[9] and in 2002, Pope John Paul II canonized Saint Josemaría Escrivá.[10]"?  For the lead, this seems adequate; the last paragraph does currently read like a playground fisticuffs.  Baccyak4H (Yak!) 02:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Tried out a new intro that I think is inline with your Baccyak4H's comments. See what you guys think. --Alecmconroy 04:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not agree to Alec's change. His is a pullback to an old version. I have already questioned this in the past: this version looks as if the Popes support a secret cultic society. Walter Ching 07:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right-- that's why these outside comments are so valuable. I can make a change, you can revert it, and ultimately it's up to people like Baccyak and Zob to decide which version they think is best. --Alecmconroy 07:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * (outdent) I gave it another bold shot, it seems this would address WC's concerns. I hope I was able to keep all the previous citations and would try another gentle reword to work any missed ones back in.  Also, I reordered the paragraphs in the whole lead and reworked the demographic paragraph slightly, just so the whole flow from top to bottom of the lead reads better. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 14:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A definite improvement. That blow-by-blow argument in the middle of the intro before was most unpleasant.  I think the phrase "While there has been some debate as to the downsides of the organization" might be a tad soft--  even OD's supporters will tell you that it is THE most controversial group in the world's largest religion.  "Opus Dei is described as the most controversial force within  the Catholic church, but various popes ...".
 * That said, the text is a definite improvement, I support the change, and I'll leave it up to you to decide whether or not to incorporate my tweaked clause. --Alecmconroy 18:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good to hear, thanks. I do like your clause, esp. because of the source.  I wouldn't mind trying to work in the other refs there; perhaps putting that Allen after "described" and adding the current ones after "church,", although that still seems not quite ideal.  Other thoughts about how to work them in (or whether to) welcome.  I'll probably go ahead then and put in your change soon, after allowing for a little more feedback.  It does make for a nice, compact, verifiable, leadworthy summary.  Baccyak4H (Yak!) 19:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That intro is heaps better, it's even handed and leaves the bulk of discussion of controversial issues to the appropriate section and article. Master z0b 02:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that's taken care of, with controversy left in one clause, the present controversy section should be pared down too. Lead is only a reflection of the article. Walter Ching 02:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hehe... So now that we deleted a sentence from the introduction, we should get to work on deleting the controversy section?  Nice try-- gotta give ya. :)  --Alecmconroy 02:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Alec, delete ≠ pare down. Walter Ching 07:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, forgive me-- I probably shouldn't be quite that snarky. :). A better way to say it is:  the lede reflects the body, not the other way round.  If there truly was a substantial imbalance between the lede and the body,  the solution would be to correct the lede to summarize the body-- not to rewrite the body to suit the lede. --Alecmconroy 09:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You are then referring to this version of mine, a version "to correct the lede to summarize the body." Everyone's silence meant everyone agrees. I will revert to it then. Walter Ching 09:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, forgive me. I did not mean to suggest that I actually believe the lede IS bad. I just said, if the lede WERE bad, we would fix the lede, not delete the body.  "Everyone's silence meant everyone agrees." is wrong multiple levels.  Silence is not agreement.  And secondly, editors here haven't been silent on the lede, they've expressed the opinion that the currently lede is an improvement.


 * If I may say so, Walter, you might want to consider the possibility that you have a Conflict of Interest when it comes to Opus Dei. I don't want to belabor the point, but in two years, all your edits have been Opus Dei related.  While I could be wrong, it's my impressed that every one of your edits has tried to insert praise of OD or delete criticism of OD.  Your editing patterns make it look as if you're only interest in Wikipedia is as a venue to promote Opus Dei.


 * Striving towards NPOV is very difficult on subject we care deeply about. I think you might consider the possibility that OD is just too close to your heart and to your soul for you to write about it from a neutral point of view.  That may sound like an insult, but it's not meant to be.  When things touch our lives greatly, it's very hard to pretend as if we're neutral.  I could never neutrally edit an article about myself or my closest friends--- the best I could do is steer clear of the topic and let the people with a little more distance handle things. --Alecmconroy 11:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Update. I took Alec's suggestion about the phrase in the lede.  A consequence is that four citations were no longer used, and I commented them out.  I tried to fix other citations which referred to them via the "name" argument, I think I did OK, but sorry if I missed something and screwed this up.  Baccyak4H (Yak!) 15:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I defend Opus Dei against people who set in this article many straw men arguments unfavorable to Opus Dei (if these were the criticisms you were referring to) and those who were formally accused of using sock puppets.


 * Mine was to follow up your basic agreement above to Savidan's proposal "to figure out what the main areas of controversy are (i.e. those that need to be mentioned in this article) and what areas are relatively unimportant (i.e. those that can safely be relegated to the subarticle)." I was agreeing with your basic agreement. Walter Ching 02:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Delisted the article as GA (has since been restored)
That this article ever got listed as GA is extraordinary. Almost everything in it is a description of Opus Dei as its leadership would like it to be seen. It offends against the Wikipedia neutrality policy in a great many areas, but among them are the following problems:

The structure of the article does not adequately express the controversial nature of the organisation. The first mentions of controversy are well down in the article and the "Controversy" section is both incomplete and structured in a biased manner.

Arguably Opus's most prominent critic, Maria del Carmen Tapia, is not even mentioned in the article (nor are her books, or the important 2006 docudrama "Opus Dei Unveiled" based on her account of her time in Opus). Controversies relating to the alleged participation of people close to Opus Dei in recent political and judicial events have also been ignored. One particular example in this regard is the deal made in 2002 between Opus Dei sympathiser and Irish minister for education, Michael Woods, limiting the liability of the Irish Catholic Church for child abuse compensation claims in Church-run residential institutions to about €125 M (in a combination of cash and allegedly overvalued properties), when the expected cost of such claims was well (again allegedly) over ten times that amount. There are many other examples where membership of or association with Opus Dei is connected with controversial Spanish, Latin American and Irish political decisions. None of such controveries are listed.

The biographical details on the founder can only be described as hagiographical in tone and content, rather in the style of a devotional leaflet (which, I'm sure has its place) than in that of a serious encyclopedia entry.

Even writers broadly sympathetic to Opus, such as John L. Allen (whose name mentioned in the "Replies to Criticism" sub-section, have made criticisms of the some aspects of the organisation). Allen, in his book, "Opus Dei, The Truth about its Rituals, Secrets and Power" made some telling criticisms of its practices and habits of thought, none of which were mentioned in the article.

The "Controversy" ´section is clearly structured in a "set 'em up and knock 'em down" manner, where selected criticisms are mentioned in the "criticism" sub-section and then replied to in "Replies to criticism". This gives the replies an air of finality and gives the impression that serious controversy about the organisation is now closed. This is anything but the case.

Other omissions from the "Controversy" section include the following:

Alleged exploition of the financial resources of its members and cooperators; Use of "instruments of penance" (while this subject is included in other parts of the article, the criticism of this practice is dealt with preemptorarily); The alleged choleric temper of Opus's founder, Escrivá, and questions about his suitability for canonisation; Escrivá's alleged fascination with noble title; Clothing codes (especially for women); The strict separation of male and female living quarters, administrative bodies and meetings; The role and exclusively female membership of the Associate Numeraries; Criticisms shared by Opus Dei with other orthodox organisations within the Catholic Church; Accusations of elitism against Opus; Opus's documented support for continuing Franco government; The lack of internal democracy in Opus's governing structures; The lack of participation of female members in the selection of a new prelate; Arguments about alleged conflicts of interest amongst public figures in decision-making positions that are members of Opus; The Opus rivalry with the Society of Jesus and the distain displayed by many of its members to the the latter.

There are, of course, many other issues left undealt with.

Outside the "Controversy" section, there are many other imperfections in the article, such as the gratuitous mention of persecution of catholics by some republican forces during the Spanish Civil War, without mentioning the implacable opposition of Catholic forces (including Opus Dei) to the democratically elected Republican Government, and without mentioning the Church's acquiescence to the massive number of executions of republicans by nationalist forces near and after the end of the Spanish Civil War.

The name of Luis Carrero Blanco, prominent Opus member and presumed successor to Franco until his assassination by ETA in 1973 is also conspicuous by its absence.

On the whole, the article is a description of Opus Dei as they would like it to be seen - more like a marketing (or evangelising!) document than an objective view. As one of Wikipedia's most important policies is that the encyclopedia shouldn't allow itself be used for self-publicity purposes, this state of affairs is inappropriate.

In resumé, the whole article is biased in its tone and content against critics of the organisation both within and outside the Catholic Church, and would require extensive revision before it could be reclassified as GA.

I'm currently attempting to address some of the issues described above.Jaimehy 13:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC) Revised: Jaimehy (talk) 15:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed NPOV tag
All Jaimehy's things have been addressed, except his suggestion to include all criticisms on Opus Dei, a non-practicable and inappropriate suggestion. All the doctrines of the Opus Dei and the Catholic Church are not in the doctrine section. And we know why. All the activities of Opus Dei are not in the activities section and we know why. All bibliography on Opus Dei is not in the bibliography section and we know why.

There are now three sections in controversy section. The third sub-section "Other Views" neutralizes the other two. Even if you don't like the Supporting Views, that is what neutrality is all about. Moreso if they are prominent experts. That's non-negotiable NPOV. Please read the policy. Cheers! Pradeshkava (talk) 05:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Good article reassessment
Rather then delist the article that many have worked on without giving them any opportunity to address their concerns, I have restored this article's GA status and taken it to Good Article Reassessment. This is a much better option then simply delisting an article based on one user's opinion. I have not had any involvement in this article and from what I know have not edited it at all (correct me if I'm wrong). I am not sure if this article should be GA or not, and am not too worried either way, but do not believe this should be done without the input of more then one user. If you believe this article should be delisted, or should retain GA status, please comment at the GAR I have started. You can view the discussion there. Please do not delist the article; instead, wait for all to have their say and let a consensus be reached. You can participate/view the discussion at Good_article_reassessment/Archive_33 (note: now archived so treat as read-only) Baccyak4H (Yak!) 16:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC). Thanks. - Shudde   talk  00:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Added NPOV marker I feel there is enough material on the discussion page of this article to justify putting an NPOV notice on it. Indeed the majority opinion seems to be that the article is severely biased.

I apologise if I've goofed in doing this. I simply feel that without this marker, the article is seriously misleading. Jaimehy (talk) 14:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of material on Opus in the Spanish Wikipedia, including much information which, while it couldn't be counted as representing Opus Dei as it would like to be seen, certainly reflects Opus Dei as it sees itself, in that it actually explains some of the internal rules of the organisation and many of the sayings of the founder, upon which much of the controversy about the organisation is founded. I will attempt to translate some of this material into English in the next few weeks. It might prove useful in settling some of the arguments about bias in the article. Jaimehy (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

While the term "fascist" should not be applied to Franco's government as a whole, it applied to a large part of the forces that won the Civil War. I therefore reinserted it somewhere else from where Túrelio removed it. I believe the sentence containing the word to be both historically accurate and relevant to the subject matter of the article. There is still some way to go before this article could be considered anything other than an advertisement for Opus Dei. Jaimehy (talk) 16:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not happy with the edits made of my work on this site over the last few days. Practically everything I've done has been undone. I'm getting more and more pessimistic about the possibility of putting some balance into the article. I haven't had time to undo the changes and explain my reasoning, but I will in the next few days. --Jaimehy (talk) 16:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You may find that it is better to discuss any controversial edits on the talk page. Hopefully this will allow a consensus to be reached. There is no point to any edit wars. It's very clear from the Good Article Reassessment that there are a variety of opinions on the quality of this article; this makes consensus difficult, but not impossible. - Shudde   talk  21:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

GA delisting
I felt that I ought to explain my reasoning for removing this article's GA listing.

I enjoyed reading the article, and it is in many ways very good. But the structuring of the controversys and their rebuttals made it very difficult to see a genuine attempt at providing a neutral point of view, as required by wikipedia's policy. The stumbling block here isn't the content, but just the structure of the article, and the way that it's presented. I very much hope that you will be able to consolidate the criticism and rebuttal sections into the main body of the article, or at least combine them into one controversy section, as I believe that the article is addressing a genuinely notable topic and really ought to be able to achieve a GA listing with just a little bit more good-spirited collaboration. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that separate criticism sections were generally frowned on as "troll magnets", and criticism is rightly interwoven into the article. See Template:Criticism-section. No doubt not all agree, but it seems Jimbo Wales does. Rumiton (talk) 15:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed NPOV tag (Opus Dei)
All Jaimehy's things have been addressed, except his suggestion to include all criticisms on Opus Dei, a non-practicable and inappropriate suggestion. All the doctrines of the Opus Dei and the Catholic Church are not in the doctrine section. All the activities of Opus Dei are not in the activities section. All bibliography on Opus Dei is not in the bibliography section. There is a reason why: Wikipedia is a summary of the most important things. Sub-articles can go into details.

There are now three sections in controversy section. The third sub-section "Other Views" neutralizes the other two. Even if you don't like the Supporting Views, that is what neutrality is all about. Moreso if writers are prominent experts. That's non-negotiable NPOV to give importance to prominent writers. Please read the policy. Cheers! Pradeshkava (talk) 05:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Undid remove NPOV tag in Opus Dei

 * If the upshot of your argument is that there is now a concensus that the Opus Dei article is now neutral and encyclopaedic in nature, I can only respectfully suggest that you have not read the issues brought up in the various debates on the merits of the article (the GA reassessment would have been a good place to start).


 * Allow me by the way to quote you: "All Jaimehy's things have been addressed, except his suggestion to include all criticisms on Opus Dei, a non-practicable and inappropriate suggestion." Could you tell me where I made that suggestion?


 * As for your implicit view that John L. Allen's viewpoint on Opus Dei is more worthy of accentuation (and respectful tone) because of his alleged greater prominence than such writers as Michael Walsh or even María del Carmen Tapia (as a former national leader of the Venezuelan women's section of Opus, it would be difficult to see how she could be a more prominent commentator without being at the very top of the - or perhaps, given Opus's power structures, in the men's section).  Even the characterisation of the same John L. Allen's view is skewed, leaving out as it does the several criticisms that Allen makes about Opus' past and indeed present in his book. Jaimehy (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The NPOV marker includes the text "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." Please pay attention to it. Not to do so is tantamount to vandalism.   Jaimehy (talk) 20:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You had a long paragraph detailing criticisms, Jaimehy. Look at your long post. You think this is not neutral only if each one of your criticisms is listed. Not fair. Not right.


 * A great chasm separates Allen and Tapia. One, Allen has a Wikipedia article. Tapia has none. :o But kidding aside, two, Allen has every reason to be unbiased, while Tapia has every reason to be biased. Allen is CNN Vaticonologist. Called respected by every liberal and every conservative. A great journalist working at the top of the journalistic industry-- factual, exhaustive, penetrating, believable. Tapia is in the words of Bryan R. Wilson an apostate. One out to justify herself. One who invents atrocity stories. She fits the Wilson's scientific description to a tee. There simply is no comparison. It's a mismatch.


 * If you check the criticism section, whose criticism is first? John Allen. He is neutral. Pradeshkava (talk) 10:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Lafem has again removed the POV tag without discussion. I have reinstated once more.


 * In answer to Pradeshkava's comments, practically none of my issues have been addressed in this article. And practically none of the issues raised by anyone else. It seems that there is a constituency here that does not want their practically undiluted and one-sided message to be defaced by a health warning, indicating that there may be another side to the story.


 * As for Allen's neutrality, he is very well known as an apologist for orthodox catholicism in many forms. He may be (as he so often claims) an "objective" observer from the point of view of orthodox roman catholicism, but in the wider world he obviously isn't.  Besides, as already mentioned, even his view is misrepresented in the article.


 * Quoting Pradeshkava: "Allen has every reason to be unbiased, while Tapia has every reason to be biased." Tapia, who worked for a long time at a senior level in Opus Dei, has every reason to know about the organisation.  Allen, on the other hand, appears practically only to have spoken with Opus members and sympathisers in preparing his book, and who only experienced Opus life in an experience set up for him by senior Opus members, would appear less qualified.


 * Quoting Pradeshkava: "You had a long paragraph detailing criticisms, Jaimehy. Look at your long post. You think this is not neutral only if each one of your criticisms is listed. Not fair. Not right." You're missing the point.  The fact is that there is a legitimate (and incidentally well-founded) disagreement about the neutrality of this article.  It should remain flagged as being subject to disagreement until a consensus is reached.  This is non-negotiable.  The arguments on this page are not the full list of arguments about the article.  Very much more has been written and archived.  Therefore, I suggest that if you think a consensus has been reached, you take a look at the archives.


 * In the meantime please read what it says on the POV notice and pay attention to it.--Jaimehy (talk) 10:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If you read John Allen, Jr.'s article you will see that my view on Allen's objectivity is shared by many. Two separate journalists have called his book "widely considered as definitive book" on Opus Dei. The article shows many journalists do agree. Maggy Whitehouse of the BBC wrote another book agreeing with Allen. She is not even Catholic. More space to neutral expertise is non-negotiable. Cheers! Pradeshkava (talk) 12:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * (outdent) This whole POV issue has been tossed around for years now. The main problem with this article is not POV, but rather structure.  Outside views and impressions are piled into a "criticisms" section (discouraged) and then there is a "replies to criticism" section (plain ugly).  The largest POV problem in this article now is only a very small and nuanced one, in that the aforementioned structure could be read as setting up the criticisms section to be a straw man.  But even this interpretation is in the eye of the reader.  And that whole nitpicking goes away with the editorial changes of incorporating content from both sections back into appropriate other sections.  I fully concur with removal of that tag.  Baccyak4H (Yak!) 04:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree fully with both Baccyak4H ("eye of the reader" comment) and Pradeshkava (Maggy Whitehouse and John Allen, Jr. comments). Another journalist who wrote about Opus Dei and debunked myths is Noam Friedlander. She is a Jew. Take a look at  this. Lafem (talk) 05:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Jaimehy, your claim "[Allen] may be (as he so often claims) an "objective" observer from the point of view of orthodox roman catholicism, but in the wider world he obviously isn't" sounds to me much akin to Peter McDermott's claims I described in your user page, given so many non-Catholic voices supporting Allen's study. Arturo Cruz (talk) 12:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Concur with Baccyack. Please remove the tag. Walter Ching (talk) 12:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Now that Malleus Fatuarum also deems the page neutral here after a reordering of the controversy section, and given the number of other views supporting removal of the tag, I have removed it. Marax (talk) 01:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * For the record, I nominated this article for GA, using this argument: "There is already agreement from the person who proposed delisting this former good article based on NPOV issues and from the person who actually delisted it that the issue of NPOV has been addressed." Marax (talk) 02:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Parish Activity
The Dublin parish of Our Lady of Peace, Merrion Road, has been entrusted by the Archbishop to the care of Opus Dei. I didn't know that Opus Dei ran parishes, but in practice what difference does this make to the average parishioner? Millbanks (talk) 07:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Opus Dei controversy section
If the main problem is a structure prone to being interpreted as a "set em up and knock em down", may I propose that we invert the order of the critical and supporting views. Please check this private fork = Opus Dei controversy section where I propose a new ordering. I hope this satisfies all parties. :) Marax (talk) 08:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to quickly chime in, since Marax asked me to. --  I think we markedly underestimate the weight of the feedback that was given at GAR if we think a cosmetic change or two will restore the article to neutrality.  Regardless of which order the views are presented it, it remains pretty clear that the majority of the Wikipedia editors have strong positive feelings toward OD.  So, for example, take a peek at how ad hominem is used in text.  The supporters of OD are presented glowingly as "historians", "journalists", and "sociologists" to buttress their praise, whereas the critics are invariable listed as merely "ex-members" or god-forbid "Jesuits".    That's just one of many patterns.  Taken together, it's obvious the article does have a slant and probably won't be truly neutral for the foreseeable future.


 * When people objected to the "set them up and knock 'em down", I don't think they were actually objecting to the order. Go ask em, but I don't know that "knock em down, and set 'em up" is any improvement over "set 'em up and knock 'em down".  I think the point of that criticism is to avoid the whole "knocking down" aspect to begin with, not to relocate said knockage.    —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alecmconroy (talk • contribs) 09:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Real life prohibits me from taking too active a role here at this time-- I'd just say keep in close touch with the GAR reviewers and let them guide ya'll. --08:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Alecmonroy: A > B is no different than B > A. What I would recommend is to completely reorganize the section by criticsm, instead of the "Pros" then "Cons" approach.  What I mean is, say the general stuff first, like who is doing the criticizing, who is doing the responding, etc.  Then outline one criticism.  The immediately afterwards mention responses to those criticisms.    Then go onto the next, and so on.  What seems most important to me is how neutrally the prose goes from one to the next.  If it's something as simple as "A says x, but B say y."  Then that's still set 'em up and knock 'em down. Also, using this format, it almost requires a bit extra emphasis given to explaining the criticisms in comparison to the rebuttals.  It is, after all, a criticism section, and if you're going to lump them all together in only a single section, they should get their due weight. Drewcifer (talk) 20:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Alecmconroy. Yes I agree with you that there seems to be more expertise on the side of the supporters. We will have to research some more on the backgrounds of the critics to solve this, but initially I would say that it is a fact that the people defending Opus Dei are quite prominent in their fields. I would tend to disagree with you though that the people at GAR wanted the knockage removed altogether. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment on this. But as I indicated in my fork, Malleus Fatuarum (one of the GAR reviewers) totally agreed with me in keeping the comments of these experts: "I completely agree with you that the research findings of Allen, Introvigne, Messori, Plunkett, et al are worthy of a serious encyclopedia, it's just that their presentation as an apparent refutation of the previously stated criticism that I think tips the POV-meter slightly into the red zone. With a little bit of reorganisation I think it would be a fine article, well up to GA." Lafem also correctly called any attempt at removing these items as "censorship". Walter Ching called this "suppression of facts." Marax (talk) 10:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you too, Drewcifer. Perhaps you might want to try your hand at this. There were previous attempts at something similar to what you have said but they were not liked by some editors: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Opus_Dei&direction=prev&oldid=90391850


 * I hope you can try. Thanks. Marax (talk) 10:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please post it, Marax. It's one more complaint squashed. It's about good-willed collaboration, too. ;) Walter Ching (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Walter. Yes, I believe this would help in adding to the neutrality of this article. I just posted the section after seeing the improvements made by Geometry Guy. I took his contribution (an "attempt to state both cases in similar neutral language" according to his edit summary ) as a tacit nod to this proposal. I also added the three criticisms of John Allen. I second Jaimehy's proposal that this be added. Marax (talk) 11:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My edit is here and I commented further here.
 * I largely agree with Alecmconroy and others here that there is still work to be done to ensure this article is entirely written from a neutral perspective. With a neutral article, it should be impossible to guess whether the editors are generally supportive or critical of the organisation. I expressed my general views about the article in great detail at the good article reassessment discussion, and much of what I say there remains valid. I think that more of the critical opinion (here I use the word to describe both supporters and detractors) needs to be integrated into the rest of the article. I don't think we can hope to eliminate the controversy section entirely, because the fact that there is controversy about the organisation is notable. I do think it is better to organise controversy sections by topic rather than viewpoint.
 * However, Marax's switch does make a difference, and is definitely a step in the right direction. This is a much better place to start from than the previous version, because it should be easier to see where supportive views have too much of a "rebuttal" flavour, and it should also be easier to integrate the critical opinion with the rest of the article. The way to do justice to the remarkable organisation that is Opus Dei is to write a very fine Wikipedia article on the subject, not to marginalise criticism and create a puff piece. I am strongly convinced that Marax is approaching the article from this perspective, and is to be commended and supported for that. Geometry guy 19:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

David Clark footnote
I believe an English translation of this ref is needed so the reader can decide who this person is, what he is saying, and whether it matters. Rumiton (talk) 14:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I looked for an English version and I added it. Hope you like it. Marax (talk) 11:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, unless I am missing something we still do not have any real info on Mr Clark to establish if he is a reputable source. In the absence of this, I feel we should remove his remarks and accusations. Rumiton (talk) 14:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I misunderstood your point. I'm glad you are questioning Clark's reputability. Editors who tended who to support criticisms have argued for retention of criticism on the basis of their being sourced from newspapers, such as the one I linked to. You might want to google his name and the word cult together. You'll find some information. However, people who are involved with anti-cult movement tend to fight for the respectability of these types of "thought-reform consultants." Will not be easy removing his name. Marax (talk) 14:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, I looked. This article has a multitude of problems, it seems to me. Reading it is like listening to a roomful of people arguing. But the Clark reference is glaring. David Clark seems to be a good example of the kind of person whose opinion is irrelevant to an encyclopedia, and supported (or so we are told) by a foreign language article (El Opus Dei desde dentro). This is an English encyclopedia, and readers must be able to check for themselves whether the sources quoted are reputable and say what they are said to say. Also the word "cult" which appears several times, is high on the Wikipedia "words to avoid" list. The following is from my Talk Page, but the editor involved seems to have left the discussion. I will paste it here because it involves Wiki procedures, rather than being a discussion on the subject itself. I would also suggest that the extensive Criticism and Defense sections be removed, and the pros and cons spread throughout the article. They are nothing but POV magnets. Rumiton (talk) 13:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * David Clark reference restored


 * Please justify your removal of this reference, which after all, is in the Critics section. David Clark, through his involvement in the Tammy diNicola case, is a prominent commentator on Opus Dei. Your removal is, at least prima facie, a POV censorship of strong language that Opus members and sympathisers find offensive (the word being "cult" and its derivatives). Whether pro-Opus people are justified in this offense is an open question. I have therefore restored the sentence, which is fully documented. --Jaimehy (talk) 20:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There are a number of issues here, and I will try to deal with them properly, giving relevant Wiki policy links, when I get some more time. The word "cult" is on the Wikipedia list of words to avoid for good reason. It is meaningless, and is used exclusively as a perjorative, generally by people who are themselves in a religion that has enough adherents to protect it from such a charge. It does not mean their beliefs are any less bizarre than those of the sect or group they are stigmatising. Prominent commentator is not the same as reputable source, which is what Wikipedia requires. If Mr Clark has published studies in respectable journals on similar groups and issues, then he may be accepted as a reputable source. Tabloids are never acceptable as sources of contentious statements. Reports that appear in tabloids are not considered to be documented. A moment's reflection should make the reasoning here plain. Rumiton (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC) Rumiton (talk) 13:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have an opinion about whether David Clark should be quoted in the article, but I would point out that at least two of the arguments for removing this reference are incorrect. First, someone's opinion should be included according to how notable that opinion is, not according to whether the person making it is a reliable source: instead reliable sources are needed to verify that this truly is the opinion of that person, and that the opinion is notable. Second, the argument that "cult" is on the list of words to avoid is irrelevant here. The point of the guideline is to discourage the use of the word "cult" as a description of an organisation in an article, i.e., the Wikipedia article should not assert that an organisation is a cult. However, if other people describe an organisation as a cult, and their opinion is notable and there are reliable sources to demonstrate this, then they can and should be quoted. In this case, the fact that David Clark uses the word "cult" is a much better demonstration that he has a negative view of Opus Dei than putting his views in a section labelled "Critical views", because it is more objective (show, don't tell). The reader is then free to interpret his views of Opus Dei in the light of him using loaded words to describe the organisation. Geometry guy 18:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Again I am pressed for time, but I believe you have it rather wrong. Notability is the criterion for including a subject in Wikipedia. The subject has to be notable. Once that has been established, sources that describe or comment on the subject have to be more than notable, they have to be reputable, which includes unbiased. It is not the role of a reliable source to say that they really said this thing, the ref shows it. Regarding the need for lack of bias, there would be no point in including Pope Benedict's opinion in an article on the Dalai Lama. He would presumably say the DL is a false prophet who is going to hell. From a Wikipedia point of view, for this subject he would be a biased source, no matter how notable. Reputable sources do not generally use the meaningless word cult, it is in the purview of the tabloids, which are not acceptable as sources. Rumiton (talk) 10:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You would be correct if David Clark was being used as a reliable source to support an assertion in the article that Opus Dei is "cult" or "cult-like". That is not the case. Instead David Clark's opinion is itself the subject of scrutiny by the article. The sources are there to verify his opinion, and the article does not endorse his opinion. Such opinions of course do not need to be unbiassed, because Wikipedia is reporting them, not asserting them. Instead they need to be notably relevant to the article in question. Pope Benedict's presumed opinion in an article on the Dalai Lama would be irrelevant unless he had created a notable controversy, reported by reliable sources, by asserting this opinion in the public sphere. Geometry guy 19:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My apologies but I just brought back the English ref which I inadvertently removed when I posted my proposal above. The ref is now from the Daily Record. I do not have any strong opinions on the issue of citing Clark. But my inclination is to agree with Geometry guy. I think it will help keep the neutrality of this page. Moreover, Clark is cited by John Allen. However, I do see the point of Rumiton since the word "cult" is hardly seen in any other Wikipedia article. My two cents worth. Marax (talk) 03:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Marax. I do understand the issue that Rumiton raises, but I think as long as the article is very clear that this is Clark's notion of "cult", and Clark's analysis of Opus Dei, it is fine to include it. That he is cited by John Allen is useful information concerning the appropriateness of including his opinion in the article. Geometry guy 20:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Content redistribution and resectioning
I have just done a bit of redistribution and reclassification of content, putting together similar items, placing items in their logical place, and giving an appropriate name. See this fork. Marax (talk) 08:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Congratulations, Malachirality (talk) 22:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, Malachirality. That was very nice of you. I will inform the other editors who have helped in this article of this good news. Marax (talk) 02:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Working towards FAC
Boosted by the encouraging words of Malachirality and having more time today, I started copyediting and tweaking this article towards FAC, and in accordance with other points on this discussion page. Marax (talk) 11:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Da-vinci-mass-market.jpg
The image Image:Da-vinci-mass-market.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --19:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

UnOfficial Opus Dei Page: Member of Communist Party
Undid revision by Mr. Conroy. Mr. Schaefer wants to be known as a member of the Communist Party in his own self-description, his own Wikipedia page. He feels proud to be one. Any other member of the Communist party will be proud of his Unofficial Home Page. These days are not MacCarthy days. There are many leftists nowadays and we should allow them to feel proud of their brethren who self-proclaim as members of the communist party. Lafem (talk) 11:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly, you have have to carry out quite a bit of original research to establish that these are the same people, and it's not certain they are. If the author of this website had said he was a member within the linked page, the information would be admissible. He doesn't, and it's not. Wikipedia is really not the place for revelations about the personal views of people who provide its sources. Secondly links to blogs and personal websites aren't suitable for external linking. Linking in this case gives undue weight to one person's rather eccentric ideas about OD members being Fascists etc. --Lo2u (T • C) 01:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree to delete Mr. Schaefer's website, not exactly because it is a personal webpage (a debatable item) but because: Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research should be avoided. Lafem (talk) 02:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The author in his website: If the emancipation of the working classes requires their fraternal concurrence, how are they to fulfill that great mission with a foreign policy in pursuit of criminal designs, playing upon national prejudices, and squandering in piratical wars the people's blood and treasure? -- Karl Marx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Procom (talk • contribs) 06:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Adding another proof that Mr. Schaefer is a self-proclaimed communist: http://www.oekonux.org/list-en/archive/msg01365.html

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 14:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "ODanticult" :
 * "UTSIT" :
 * "UTSIT" :
 * "UTSIT" :